Biden dramatically scales up the pressure on Netanyahu

[Goenitz]

ou should watch this speech of Gaddafi in 2009 in the UNO General Assembly where he proposes or reiterates various solutions. It is a long speech - 1 hour 38 minutes - but worth listening.

Yeah.. i watched that

 

[denel]

PLM of Yasir Arafat stopped violence but still didn't get a liberated/independent Palestine.!!
Then hamas was born.

Afghans cannot back down, they are tribal people. So a very special case.

@denel
Brother did ever S.Africans have armed struggle? Or they get civil rights without firing a bullet? I mean though there was apartheid, but was the govt killing civilians and confiscating properties? I mean can we draw parallel between S.Africa and Isreal?

On first - Isreal needed some kind of structure to replace PLO; they sponsored and created Hamas for Gaza/West Bank.

For S.A. Yes, there was a struggle in many levels. Firstly ANC/PAC/AZAPO were engaged in armed struggle but it mounted to very little in grand scheme of things; second, COSATU/Trade unions/Civil society was engaged in direct confrontations with the Aparthied govt in terms of strikes and unilateral actions. Our saving grace was tight integration with large scale development which had pushed us into the industrial level of Europe by early 80's. Rules such as passbook had to be scrapped; slowly Aparthied policies started to get dismantled. Once the question of Namibia was resolved and communist threat over - it was focused on local control. However even that there were under the scene engagement by the Aparthied govt via PW Botha.

Regarding the heavy handedness; there were a lot of death squads primarily going after any support structure in the bordering countries. We called them 3rd force. Extremely brutal. Over a couple thousand people disappeared. The rogue agency reported to no one and became a force on their own; it was their own vices which brought them down.

Not even at height of apartheid, was it anything like Zionist occupation. It is what I would called NeoNazi Aparthied.

It is ironic; read through Canada's history and you see the influence on South Africa via Indian Act. YEt they cannot stand up for Palestine. It is a case of White empowerment at the end.

Canada's Apartheid | Lapsus Lima

Lapsus Lima | Landscape Architecture | Pierre Bélanger & Kate Yoon lay bare Canada's role in the settling of "the Native question", at home —and at large.

www.lapsuslima.com

 

[jamahir]

Isreal needed some kind of structure to replace PLO; they sponsored and created Hamas for Gaza/West Bank.

Agree. That's what I generally wrote in this post two hours ago.

 

[Saddam Hussein]

Bombardment not just from France but from all the air forces and navies of NATO + GCC + invasion by the thousands of cockroach terrorists they created. This was I think the biggest military invasion alliance in history.

And the aim was not just cheaper petrochemicals but the end of yet another progressive Muslim-majority country and a major historic supporter of progressive activism in the world and a proposer of solutions to the various political problems created by Western governments. Meaning, Libya was a total irritant for Western governments. You should watch this speech of Gaddafi in 2009 in the UNO General Assembly where he proposes or reiterates various solutions. It is a long speech - 1 hour 38 minutes - but worth listening.

Quite sure gulf war 1991 was bigger

 

[denel]

Agree. That's what I generally wrote in this post two hours ago.

most people on this thread are too young to even know history from that time.

 

[newb3e]

All the muslims who are living in the US and west should immediately go back to their countries...its hypocrisy to say they support palestine by paying the taxes and working for the nations that are suppressing Palestinians.

will yindus get out or arab country because they hate Muslims? or is it a selective bs from your beautiful turdy yindu mind?

 

[jamahir]

Quite sure gulf war 1991 was bigger

Well, you as a Iraqi will know more detail but NATO now has 30 member countries which I think were not so many in 1991. Plus GCC countries like Qatar did not participate in Iraq 1991.

But thankfully USA did not use depleted uranium bombs in Libya like it did in Iraq.

 

[Saddam Hussein]

Well, you as a Iraqi will know more detail but NATO now has 30 member countries which I think were not so many in 1991. Plus GCC countries like Qatar did not participate in Iraq 1991.

But thankfully USA did not use depleted uranium bombs in Libya like it did in Iraq.

Entire NATO, GCC, African countries and Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Morocco. 700k US army ground troops stationed in Saudi Arabia. All participated.

I'm sure it was more, either way we'll keep it to Libya the topic

 

[jamahir]

Entire NATO, GCC, African countries and Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Morocco. 700k US army ground troops stationed in Saudi Arabia. All participated.

I'm sure it was more

I am not demeaning the suffering of Iraq but...

1. Out of those 700,000 US army troops stationed in Saudia how many invaded Iraq ?

2. Technically, how many members was NATO composed of in 1991 ?

3. Unlike Libya there were no Al Qaeda elements in Iraq, cutting off people's heads and hanging Blacks from cranes. But yes there were things like the Highway of Death. That famous photo of the burned Iraqi truck driver. This was done by the main Al-Qaeda-in-uniform - the American military.

4. The pre-invasion governance structure of Iraq was allowed to remain. But I know a bit about the sanctions.

either way we'll keep it to Libya the topic

 

[Goenitz]

On first - Isreal needed some kind of structure to replace PLO; they sponsored and created Hamas for Gaza/West Bank.

For S.A. Yes, there was a struggle in many levels. Firstly ANC/PAC/AZAPO were engaged in armed struggle but it mounted to very little in grand scheme of things; second, COSATU/Trade unions/Civil society was engaged in direct confrontations with the Aparthied govt in terms of strikes and unilateral actions. Our saving grace was tight integration with large scale development which had pushed us into the industrial level of Europe by early 80's. Rules such as passbook had to be scrapped; slowly Aparthied policies started to get dismantled. Once the question of Namibia was resolved and communist threat over - it was focused on local control. However even that there were under the scene engagement by the Aparthied govt via PW Botha.

Regarding the heavy handedness; there were a lot of death squads primarily going after any support structure in the bordering countries. We called them 3rd force. Extremely brutal. Over a couple thousand people disappeared. The rogue agency reported to no one and became a force on their own; it was their own vices which brought them down.

Not even at height of apartheid, was it anything like Zionist occupation. It is what I would called NeoNazi Aparthied.

It is ironic; read through Canada's history and you see the influence on South Africa via Indian Act. YEt they cannot stand up for Palestine. It is a case of White empowerment at the end.

Canada's Apartheid | Lapsus Lima

Lapsus Lima | Landscape Architecture | Pierre Bélanger & Kate Yoon lay bare Canada's role in the settling of "the Native question", at home —and at large.

www.lapsuslima.com

@PeaceGen
As you can see it was mixture of many things.

 

[denel]

The South-African blacks and Mandela acted against white oppression with patience and peaceful resistance.
I believe this helped them gain their liberty and equality sooner.

The Afghans are a divided people, with the Taliban being the oppressors, and the liberals as seekers of personal freedom.

The Palestinians, prior to Arafat, showed the Israelis nothing but hatred. "Drive all Israelis into the sea" ring a bell?
So they must now show more patience and wisdom than the South Africans did, to gain their independence.
They could for instance negotiate for new lands from Jordan and Egypt on the borders of Israel.

Fact is, both the Israelis and the Palestinians have a population growth problem that's not going away.
They'll *both* need new territory. And with modern desalinasation techniques, which can even be done on sunlight alone (Freshwater (industrial scale) from seawater, on sunlight | Physics Forums - The Fusion of Science and Community), these lands *can* be acquired in exchange for good deals on farming products grown on lands that would be prepared for farming.

Sorry, your narrative of south african history is completely wrong.

Our trade unions were instrumental. Next entire african continent stood by us with the exception of Malawi. US/UK as well as most European countries did business as usual. Only Brian Mulroney made a lot of noise; so did Biden - that is why i am amazed at both Canadian as well Biden's duplicity in this matter.

Our workforce was already part of the economy where in Palestine it is not.

It is this deep dependency which hastened the end of Aparthied; further an average South African had no love for Aparthied except for the lunatic fringe of AWB - but even they would not get down to the level of Bibi. They are and remain god fearing people.

Let me give you an example - AWB - i have very good friends who were AWB. But when we had shit hit the fan, they remained by my side and refused to part take the lunacy that happened in 1994.

 

[jamahir]

All the muslims who are living in the US and west should immediately go back to their countries...its hypocrisy to say they support palestine by paying the taxes and working for the nations that are suppressing Palestinians.

In the run up to the 2003 Iraq invasion by Britain, USA and two others, many White and non-Muslim Britishers participated in protest marches against the invasion plan of their government. Should these marchers have quietly exited their country instead of protesting their government's action ?

This thread from this morning speaks of thousands of Israelis, many of them Jews, marching through Tel Aviv on Saturday, calling for peace with the Palestinians. Should these Jews exit Israel ?

 

[PeaceGen]

Though I didn't get an insight from the denel, but I can safely say that SA and Isreal-Palestine are totally different cases. You cannot compare atrocities of Israel to SA govt towards its people, except the apartheid.


Talibans are not oppressing people but belongs to majority ethnic group. They were severe in their actions, which was both good or bad. Like, the general punishment of adultery, I guess that was not needed. However, the fear of cultivating opium was great too that during Taliban reign, heroine production hit zero.


So why Palestinian didn't get their freedom during Arafat time?


So that is your offering if they opt for 'peace'? New lands in new country to create more political problems?

BTW, Libya opted for peace, gave away their nuclear weapons, what did they get? Bombardment from France, so EU can get uninterrupted gas supply.!!!!! @jamahir

i think the Israelis were, and are, pressured by population growth to keep expanding settlements, and Arafat wasn't exactly known for fostering peace and cooperation with the Israelis. as far as i know Arafat did not recognize Israel's right to exist.

Israel and the Palestinians: From the Two-State Solution to Five Failed “States”

Israeli and Palestinian leaders must recognize that a ceasefire to the current conflict is no substitute for actual action toward lasting stability and peace, writes CSIS’s Burke Chair in Strategy.

www.csis.org

...
These Israeli Jewish shifts against the two-state solution did not occur without cause from a Jewish perspective – although Palestinians have reason to feel that way about Israel. The Camp David Accords in 1978 did not lead to the creation of two states, and the Palestinians responded with Arafat and his Fatah Party triggering the first Intifada – a mix of low-level violence and political protests – in 1987. This was the first serious step in the pattern of sporadic violence and warfare that has now intensified for more than 30 years.
...

if the Israeli and Palestinians could negotiate new land to prepare for homes and farmland usage, then that would lead to less problems, not more.

and i don't know enough about the Libya case that you mention to say anything about it. what you describe is disturbing and wrong, so i'll look into it one of these days, ok..

 

[denel]

i think the Israelis were, and are, pressured by population growth to keep expanding settlements, and Arafat wasn't exactly known for fostering peace and cooperation with the Israelis. as far as i know Arafat did not recognize Israel's right to exist.

Israel and the Palestinians: From the Two-State Solution to Five Failed “States”

Israeli and Palestinian leaders must recognize that a ceasefire to the current conflict is no substitute for actual action toward lasting stability and peace, writes CSIS’s Burke Chair in Strategy.

www.csis.org

if the Israeli and Palestinians could negotiate new land to prepare for homes and farmland usage, then that would lead to less problems, not more.

and i don't know enough about the Libya case that you mention to say anything about it. what you describe is disturbing and wrong, so i'll look into it one of these days, ok..

You are wrong; i can tell you Arafat did recognise; he met many times and even had lunch with the then president. Unfortunately, not sure what age you are. We all remember those well.

I suggest you come and have a look at the massive space each settler home takes up; water consumption x10-15x an arab;

 

[PeaceGen]

Bombardment not just from France but from all the air forces and navies of NATO + GCC + invasion by the thousands of cockroach terrorists they created. This was I think the biggest military invasion alliance in history.

And the aim was not just cheaper petrochemicals but the end of yet another progressive Muslim-majority country and a major historic supporter of progressive activism in the world and a proposer of solutions to the various political problems created by Western governments. Meaning, Libya was a total irritant for Western governments. You should watch this speech of Gaddafi in 2009 in the UNO General Assembly where he proposes or reiterates various solutions. It is a long speech - 1 hour 38 minutes - but worth listening.

ehh... you're grossly misrepresenting the Libya case here..

International reactions to the 2011 military intervention in Libya - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

International reactions to the 2011 military intervention in Libya
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The international reactions to the 2011 military intervention in Libya were the responses to the military intervention in Libya by NATO and allied forces to impose a no-fly zone. The intervention was authorized by United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973, approved in New York on 17 March, in response to the Libyan Civil War, though some governments allege participants in the operation exceeded their mandate.
Overall response from governments was generally split between strong opposition and conditional support for the intervention.
Libyans themselves were largely supportive of the intervention. According to a Gallup poll conducted in 2012, 75% of Libyans were in favor of the NATO intervention, compared to 22% who were opposed.[1] A 2011 Orb International poll also found broad support for the intervention, with 85% of Libyans saying that they strongly supported the action taken to remove the Gaddafi regime.[2]