Bhensa has been controlled.

[haviZsultan]

This debate is a sad reminder of the fault lines in Pakistani society with some not even attempting to be tolerant. As I said no one liberal here is saying even once that hurting someones sentiments purposely is wrong. @Respect4Respect01 I have gone through the post and noted your point. This kind of abuse against Islam or any other religion should not occur and it is the job of authorities to stop them in order for vigilantes not taking the step themselves.

1 But the questions are what defines the dark areas of what is acceptable and what is hate speech or hurting the sentiments of the majority? To the Taliban questioning suicide bombing is wrong. To a JI mullah or some here having a beard for men is a must and denying it is wrong. Everyone defines crimes against religion in their own ways. And its a tricky problem in my eyes.@Sinnerman108 is simply saying the same thing.

2 What is the better way for muslims to behave vis a vis perceived blasphemy? Call for a cutting of heads or staying even-keeled and working to express their beliefs in open debate? Would it be better for Islam to win an opponent over or kill them? Winning over someone in my eyes is superior to murdering a blasphemer. According to the Quran and Hadith converting someone is a very good thing. And conversion isn't done by force, it is done with love, respect and understanding.

3 If attacking Islam is bad what about the rubbish that escapes the mullahs mouths about Ahmedis Hindus and Christians. Blasphemy or religious abuse of their figures and prophets/idols is far more common in Pakistan and I have witnessed it. The proponents of stopping blasphemy against Islam do not even stop to wonder at this point with @Khafee directly calling @Musafir117 Ahmedi and dismissing his views because he may be from another religion. How can we even attempt to solve this problem, brother Khafee. Amendments to the blasphemy law, if not the scrapping of the law as emotional conservative clap trap must be accepted. A rule shouldn't be made that supports only one religion. This reminds me of Indians mindless stand on the beef ban. Why should a minority have to suffer?

So many days and still no idea where they might be?


http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=55943#.WIdWslMrLAT

Pakistan: UN expert calls for return of four disappeared human rights and social media activists

Special Rapporteur on the promotion and protection of the right to freedom of opinion and expression David Kaye. UN Photo/Jean-Marc Ferré


11 January 2017 – A United Nations human rights expert today called on the Pakistani authorities to make it a top priority to locate, protect and return home four disappeared human rights and social media campaigners.

“I strongly urge the Government of Pakistan to take every step possible to locate the four missing activists, a first step toward reemphasizing its commitment to freedom of expression at the beginning of the year,” said David Kaye, the UN Special Rapporteur on the right to freedom of expression, in a news release from the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR).

According to the news release, the four men –Waqas Goraya, Asim Saeed, Salman Haider and Ahmed Raza Naseer – went missing between 4 and 7 January. Mainstream media outlets had accused them of promoting blasphemy, a criminal offense in Pakistan.

“Free expression campaigners and experts have long called for the abolition of criminal blasphemy provisions in Pakistan, which may carry the death penalty,” Mr. Kaye noted. “Not only are such laws incompatible with international human rights law, but they also facilitate threats by state and non-state actors seeking to target expression.”

The Special Rapporteur stressed that “all States have an obligation to promote a diverse space and culture for expression, but such culture does not create itself.”

Special Rapporteurs and independent experts are appointed by the Geneva-based UN Human Rights Council to examine and report back on a specific human rights theme or a country situation. The positions are honorary and the experts are not UN staff, nor are they paid for their work.

The same army being blamed for this senseless kidnapping traced and captured the abductors of Shahbaz Taseer. This is done by terrorists. I cannot believe even for a second that the secular and Ahmedi officers of the FIA/ISI who protected me and my people and have died for serving the country could for a second think of kidnapping activists because of opposing views.

But I agree that Pakistani society has not evolved to that point where extremely critical type of debate on religious doctrines and thinking can be allowed. People who have hurt the feelings of the majority should be dealt with by the judges, if not to provoke the brainless mullahs into (more) senseless violence.

 

[VCheng]

The same army being blamed for this senseless kidnapping traced and captured the abductors of Shahbaz Taseer. This is done by terrorists. I cannot believe even for a second that the secular and Ahmedi officers of the FIA/ISI who protected me and my people and have died for serving the country could for a second think of kidnapping activists because of opposing views.

But I agree that Pakistani society has not evolved to that point where extremely critical type of debate on religious doctrines and thinking can be allowed. People who have hurt the feelings of the majority should be dealt with by the judges, if not to provoke the brainless mullahs into (more) senseless violence.

Who has abducted these people, and why, are the first questions that need answers, and urgently.

 

[VCheng]

Excerpted from:

https://warontherocks.com/2017/01/pakistans-unending-war-on-civil-society/

(Please note that it has not be proven that Pakistan's security agencies took these activists as stated below.)

"In August 2016, Pakistan passed a new law, the Prevention of Electronic Crimes Act, 2016. This law broadened Pakistan’s ability to crackdown on its critics rather than terrorists and criminals. The law allows the government to “censor online content and to criminalize internet user activity under extremely broad and vague criteria. The law also sanctions government authorities to access data of internet users without judicial review or oversight.” While in principle this is a civilian affair, the government acquiesced to the ISI’s demand for “legal cover for action against those allegedly committing online crimes against the state and undermining the national security and [law makers] had to agree with the proposal.” Consistent with Pakistan’s war on civil society, this law is not being used to restrict the myriad Pakistani terrorists who avidly use social media to spread their messages of “jihad” and other violent fatuity.

The first victims of this law were, in fact, civil society activists who were well-known for their reformist views exposited through social media. Pakistan’s security agencies disappeared Waqas Goraya and Asim Saeed on January 4, Salman Haider on January 6, and Ahmed Raza Naseer on January 7. Their “crimes” included promoting progressive, inclusive, and secular views that undermined the state-sponsored narrative of exclusivist definitions of Sunni Islam, support for Islamist terrorism and insurgency as tools of state policy, while also decrying the lack of protection for religious minorities and members of Muslim sects in Pakistan. To make matters worse, Pakistan’s religious fanatics have filed charges of blasphemy against these men. This effectively ensures that when these men are released, they will face a serious death threat. Persons in Pakistan accused of blasphemy are frequently murdered by vigilantes who are never punished for their bloody crimes."

 

[Khafee]

This debate is a sad reminder of the fault lines in Pakistani society with some not even attempting to be tolerant. As I said no one liberal here is saying even once that hurting someones sentiments purposely is wrong. @Respect4Respect01 I have gone through the post and noted your point. This kind of abuse against Islam or any other religion should not occur and it is the job of authorities to stop them in order for vigilantes not taking the step themselves.

1 But the questions are what defines the dark areas of what is acceptable and what is hate speech or hurting the sentiments of the majority? To the Taliban questioning suicide bombing is wrong. To a JI mullah or some here having a beard for men is a must and denying it is wrong. Everyone defines crimes against religion in their own ways. And its a tricky problem in my eyes.@Sinnerman108 is simply saying the same thing.

2 What is the better way for muslims to behave vis a vis perceived blasphemy? Call for a cutting of heads or staying even-keeled and working to express their beliefs in open debate? Would it be better for Islam to win an opponent over or kill them? Winning over someone in my eyes is superior to murdering a blasphemer. According to the Quran and Hadith converting someone is a very good thing. And conversion isn't done by force, it is done with love, respect and understanding.

3 If attacking Islam is bad what about the rubbish that escapes the mullahs mouths about Ahmedis Hindus and Christians. Blasphemy or religious abuse of their figures and prophets/idols is far more common in Pakistan and I have witnessed it. The proponents of stopping blasphemy against Islam do not even stop to wonder at this point with @Khafee directly calling @Musafir117 Ahmedi and dismissing his views because he may be from another religion. How can we even attempt to solve this problem, brother Khafee. Amendments to the blasphemy law, if not the scrapping of the law as emotional conservative clap trap must be accepted. A rule shouldn't be made that supports only one religion. This reminds me of Indians mindless stand on the beef ban. Why should a minority have to suffer?


The same army being blamed for this senseless kidnapping traced and captured the abductors of Shahbaz Taseer. This is done by terrorists. I cannot believe even for a second that the secular and Ahmedi officers of the FIA/ISI who protected me and my people and have died for serving the country could for a second think of kidnapping activists because of opposing views.

But I agree that Pakistani society has not evolved to that point where extremely critical type of debate on religious doctrines and thinking can be allowed. People who have hurt the feelings of the majority should be dealt with by the judges, if not to provoke the brainless mullahs into (more) senseless violence.

Until @Respect4Respect01 had posted the Behnsa tweets, you were calling me names and going nuts, now that the forum can see what vile creatures they are, you are shamelessly deflecting, and posting wishy washy nonsense as usual. Musafir as can be seen in this very thread ,was as usual talking crap, just like you. So you jumping to his defence , and misconstruing my words was expected. Nothing wrong in me asking him not to make silly comments like you, and creating more problems for his community.

Btw, with all the nonsense you have spewed, you have yet to justify why Bhensa had to post insulting and derogatory remarks in the first place.

 

[Respect4Respect01]

This debate is a sad reminder of the fault lines in Pakistani society with some not even attempting to be tolerant. As I said no one liberal here is saying even once that hurting someones sentiments purposely is wrong. @Respect4Respect01 I have gone through the post and noted your point. This kind of abuse against Islam or any other religion should not occur and it is the job of authorities to stop them in order for vigilantes not taking the step themselves.

1 But the questions are what defines the dark areas of what is acceptable and what is hate speech or hurting the sentiments of the majority? To the Taliban questioning suicide bombing is wrong. To a JI mullah or some here having a beard for men is a must and denying it is wrong. Everyone defines crimes against religion in their own ways. And its a tricky problem in my eyes.@Sinnerman108 is simply saying the same thing.

2 What is the better way for muslims to behave vis a vis perceived blasphemy? Call for a cutting of heads or staying even-keeled and working to express their beliefs in open debate? Would it be better for Islam to win an opponent over or kill them? Winning over someone in my eyes is superior to murdering a blasphemer. According to the Quran and Hadith converting someone is a very good thing. And conversion isn't done by force, it is done with love, respect and understanding.

3 If attacking Islam is bad what about the rubbish that escapes the mullahs mouths about Ahmedis Hindus and Christians. Blasphemy or religious abuse of their figures and prophets/idols is far more common in Pakistan and I have witnessed it. The proponents of stopping blasphemy against Islam do not even stop to wonder at this point with @Khafee directly calling @Musafir117 Ahmedi and dismissing his views because he may be from another religion. How can we even attempt to solve this problem, brother Khafee. Amendments to the blasphemy law, if not the scrapping of the law as emotional conservative clap trap must be accepted. A rule shouldn't be made that supports only one religion. This reminds me of Indians mindless stand on the beef ban. Why should a minority have to suffer?


The same army being blamed for this senseless kidnapping traced and captured the abductors of Shahbaz Taseer. This is done by terrorists. I cannot believe even for a second that the secular and Ahmedi officers of the FIA/ISI who protected me and my people and have died for serving the country could for a second think of kidnapping activists because of opposing views.

But I agree that Pakistani society has not evolved to that point where extremely critical type of debate on religious doctrines and thinking can be allowed. People who have hurt the feelings of the majority should be dealt with by the judges, if not to provoke the brainless mullahs into (more) senseless violence.

There might be many issues in Pakistan and we need to resolve them, but some people are adding fuel to the fire, which is unacceptable. Believe me fried, i am just a average Muslim but i still could not read and look at what those "activists" posted on Bhensa page. I forced myself to find those screenshots for you so you could understand the background of story where it all started from. I only showed you few images, there is alot more content like that they posted on their page since last 4 or 5 years.

1. I think it is very much clear that disrespecting ANY religion is part of hate speech and people should be punished for that no matter which religion they belong to. You just can't ignore this because this is going to polarize our society further and sow dissent between different Fiqh's and Religions.

2. You are right and i agree with you, it is better if you win your opponent over. But that is the case if the other person is debating and questioning you about your religion, but these people outrightly abused Islam to provoke Muslims, then what can we do? Muslims are also humans, they are not angels, so there are good and bad people among Muslims too just like rest of the religions. Only angels are powerful enough to tolerate those activists, its not bearable for even average Muslims like myself.

3. The "Mullahs" you are talking about are mostly Jahil and Businessmen, and their product is Islam. They misuse Islam for their own interests and that is why they have nothing to do with Islam. But we can't say that all Maulvi's are bad because there are many good and educated Maulvi's who have studied Islam. The main problem in Pakistan is that some people are misusing these Honorific Islamic titles such as Maulana, Mullah, Maulvi and Shaikh. Mostly these people are self-declared scholars.
Now lets talk about blasphemy, if a person is a real Muslim he will never hurt sentiments of people belonging to other faiths. In my views, Islam does not allow you to judge people by their faith, you judge people by their actions. But there are some bad people in all religions that misuse their religion. You remember Pastor Terry Jones that burned Quran?..he was a extremist so he does not represent Christianity.

The main point is that nobody should be allowed to disrespect other peoples faith, you are allowed to ask questions but you have no right to create pages just to abuse ones faith. All religions forbid this but we all have stopped following the real teachings of God and instead created our own. Now, if some people do hurt sentiments of millions just to provoke them then they should be punished according to the Law. The courts are there to decide if they are guilty or not.

 

[VCheng]

Why are my posts being delayed because of a moderating hold?

==================================

Why would one force oneself to view objectionable material? Reading any FB page is a voluntary activity.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/bhensa-has-been-controlled.472407/page-59#ixzz4WhZIzhN8

 

[haviZsultan]

Good points there, respect. We are all part of Pakistani society and want our own little Pakistan tailored to our way of thinking and needs. At some point we will need to recklessly debate what system is best for Pakistan and take pieces from all ideologies to make an equal, egalitarian yet hurtful to the majorities conservative ideals, Pakistan.

There might be many issues in Pakistan and we need to resolve them, but some people are adding fuel to the fire, which is unacceptable. Believe me fried, i am just a average Muslim but i still could not read and look at what those "activists" posted on Bhensa page. I forced myself to find those screenshots for you so you could understand the background of story where it all started from. I only showed you few images, there is alot more content like that they posted on their page since last 4 or 5 years.

I agree that bhensa is treading a thin line. It is not only abusive to most muslims but also recklessly uncaring for their own lives as we have seen even questioning the blasphemy law can do to people like Taseer and how his entire UnIslamic thinking was laid as the justification of that act. There is no need to insult religion, its not about believing or disbelieving in God, angels and prophets. It is about being courteous.

Note that I have to constantly say I do not support blasphemy so I am not labelled a heretic here. I shouldn't have to explain myself though. I want whats best for Pakistan anyway.

1. I think it is very much clear that disrespecting ANY religion is part of hate speech and people should be punished for that no matter which religion they belong to.

I am glad you agree that blasphemy against Islam isn't the only thing wrong, but blasphemy (or in us muslims view disrespect-both terms have different innotations among followers of different religion) against any other religion is also wrong. This is a crucial similarity from which we can (perhaps) find common ground. Since you do not take offense easily this will be an easier discussion than with Pakistani/Arab KKK member Khafee. No offense. Though no matter how advanced his military knowledge may be he is orthodox at best in interpretation of religion.

Though disagreements are natural in the dark, fecund passages of nation building.

You just can't ignore this because this is going to polarize our society further and sow dissent between different Fiqh's and Religions.

This is where we need to consider the current setup. Aren't there already vastly different interpretations and dissent between the fiqh's and religions? Christians don't get along with Ahmedis over how the Ahmedis view Jesus, that is an external problem, outside our religion. What we should note is how difficult it is to say we are just muslim. Mind you there are not only shia sunni tensions but extreme disagreements between sufis, deobandis, wahabis and hanafis and salafis. It has been alleged that dancing of sufi saints is disallowed.

Sorry for being the pessimist. I strongly believe in modern concepts like Ijtehad to deal with conservative fallacies. But my basic point is there are already divisions. Its about closing those divisions and building respect and harmony between the various groups that is important. For that i strongly believe re-evaluating some of our core principles. Like the blasphemy law. Rest i have agreed with. To prevent mob like justice if not anything else the state has to take action against those who abuse and hate on ANY religion.

2. You are right and i agree with you, it is better if you win your opponent over. But that is the case if the other person is debating and questioning you about your religion, but these people outrightly abused Islam to provoke Muslims, then what can we do? Muslims are also humans, they are not angels, so there are good and bad people among Muslims too just like rest of the religions. Only angels are powerful enough to tolerate those activists, its not bearable for even average Muslims like myself.

While in a foreign country I have witnessed hate towards my religion and calling me arab when I am not. But the ones I truly admire is people like Ghamidi and Muhammad Farooq Khan and to a lesser extent Tariq Ramazan and Qadri who do not lose their cool. Also religion is openly criticized in the west. This, you may think applies only to Islam with Charlie Hebdo and the Christian equavilant pastor to our own JI mullahs. Infact Christianity is far more abused as a religion in the west by not just secularists but Christians. It is visible in movies, art and daily publications. There are some publications that survive on insulting Christian. But this is tolerated as debate there. Europe, since its early fanatical days has escaped the enclosing walls of orthodoxy.

I am not trying to justify but say that those of us who can tolerate even the worst abuse for Islam are in a far better position to present a better image of it to the world. Yet such people are killed. Muhammad Farooq Khan was slain and Ghamidi had to escape the country just because he refused to call shias kaffir.

3. The "Mullahs" you are talking about are mostly Jahil and Businessmen, and their product is Islam. They misuse Islam for their own interests and that is why they have nothing to do with Islam. But we can't say that all Maulvi's are bad because there are many good and educated Maulvi's who have studied Islam. The main problem in Pakistan is that some people are misusing these Honorific Islamic titles such as Maulana, Mullah, Maulvi and Shaikh. Mostly these people are self-declared scholars.

I agree. I have mentioned mullahs who are tolerant personally. But a large number of bad apples spoils the entire batch. It isn't just about these mullahs with titles defaming Islam. It is also about the entire system we want for Pakistan. We all know when religion is imposed the state focuses on the beard of a man and veil of a women instead of on important things like equality and better economic output.

Now lets talk about blasphemy, if a person is a real Muslim he will never hurt sentiments of people belonging to other faiths. In my views, Islam does not allow you to judge people by their faith, you judge people by their actions. But there are some bad people in all religions that misuse their religion. You remember Pastor Terry Jones that burned Quran?..he was a extremist so he does not represent Christianity.

I agree. The Taliban represent Islam as much as a wolf represents the entire animal kingdom. I have spoken specifically on my views of provoking more conservative muslims extensively and also have refused to support bhensa. So I will not comment further and I don't have to prove I love my religion, Islam in my own intricate way.

The main point is that nobody should be allowed to disrespect other peoples faith, you are allowed to ask questions but you have no right to create pages just to abuse ones faith. All religions forbid this but we all have stopped following the real teachings of God and instead created our own. Now, if some people do hurt sentiments of millions just to provoke them then they should be punished according to the Law. The courts are there to decide if they are guilty or not.

I have agreed with this. There is no point making the situation any worse. When people are evolved into such a state where they can question religion so vehemently it will show and it will take time for us to think as citizens of some secular states have begun to think. Otherwise these people are only hurting sentiments of people who have not reached that point of tolerance.

I wish you the best, respect. Cheers for you have expressed yourself well. It is the more common, majorities view and as I support Islamic secularism with majoritarian thinking I understand that it is necessary for me to understand your and even more hostile elements like @Khafee's views

 

[VCheng]

I am not trying to justify but say that those of us who can tolerate even the worst abuse for Islam are in a far better position to present a better image of it to the world.

Radicalism and extremism in anything harms the source itself far more than anyone else.

This is the same issue as objecting to the content of a television channel. If one does not like it, just change the channel and watch something else. That is why there is a choice of channels.

Why do some self appointed guardians take it upon themselves to determine what others can or cannot watch or read? Demands for such censorship only betray their inner insecurities.

Islam is simply too big to be in danger by a few FB pages or TV channels, that is for sure.

 

[Khafee]

I agree that bhensa is treading a thin line. It is not only abusive to most muslims but also recklessly uncaring for their own lives as we have seen even questioning the blasphemy law can do to people like Taseer and how his entire UnIslamic thinking was laid as the justification of that act. There is no need to insult religion, its not about believing or disbelieving in God, angels and prophets. It is about being courteous.

Note that I have to constantly say I do not support blasphemy so I am not labelled a heretic here. I shouldn't have to explain myself though. I want whats best for Pakistan anyway.

So even after all the blasphemous content posted on this thread "Bhensa is treading a thin line" ? They haven't crossed it yet? Wow what a supporter you are ! Congratulations, you should be proud of yourself.

 

[VCheng]

I agree that bhensa is treading a thin line.

But why are we worried about how thin of a line anyone else is treading? We should all keep attention to our own lines and let others worry about theirs. Allah will sort all of us out one Day.

 

[Khafee]

But why are we worried about how thin of a line anyone else is treading? We should all keep attention to our own lines and let others worry about theirs. Allah will sort all of us out one Day.

He will definitely do that, but those against who official complaints have been filed, should be worrying about whats going to happen next.

 

[VCheng]

What official complaints? The Interior Minister has refuted any official action against these persons.

 

[Khafee]

What official complaints?

Ask your masters.

 

[Respect4Respect01]

Why are my posts being delayed because of a moderating hold?

==================================

Why would one force oneself to view objectionable material? Reading any FB page is a voluntary activity.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/bhensa-has-been-controlled.472407/page-59#ixzz4WhZIzhN8

It is not so simple, these people share it so much that it starts to show up on other people's feed. Now answer my question,
What IS The Point Of These Pages?

 

[Khafee]

It is not so simple, these people share it so much that it starts to show up on other people's feed. Now answer my question,
What IS The Point Of These Pages?

To insult, hurt, provoke people, and show people as intolerant. Shows how vile they really are, despite the cloak of liberalism they wear.

Didn't you see on this very thread, how a champion of liberalism was calling me names, and then you posted Behnsas crap, and he fizzled out? Little do they know, what awaits them.