Bhensa has been controlled.

[Solomon2]

To stir up Fitnah.

Those in power get to abuse it for personal or demonic purposes but you can't complain because that would be divisive? So it's better to remain ganged-up together and blame foreigners for your problems?

 

[haviZsultan]

Guys we get very offended with these blasphemous pages and often even blame others without proof of blasphemy but I think there are a few things to ponder here. There is a law for blasphemy against Islam. Is there a similar law for minorities too against the abuse and slandering of their religion? I have always called for elimination of blasphemy law as it is all emotions but I won't demand it against the majorities will. But at least lets amend the law to include clauses against people who falsely accuse others of blasphemy and also against the slandering of christian/hindu faiths which is far more common.

I despise Solomon and his hypocritical stand on Israel but I do admit that in article 298b/c we need to stipulate that blasphemy law also applies to insults against Christians and Hindus religion in Pakistan. Otherwise the law is discriminatory.

@Khafee I agree with you on Israel's tyranny and its historical oppression against Palestinians is visible to all but this thread is more pointing towards our own limitations and Israel is a little off topic. Our primary concern should be promoting equality in Pakistan. Then a thousand Israels can't weaken us.

Pakistanis, whether secular, liberal or conservative need to learn to live together with peace. No one should offend the other. And the common ground should be that we all love Pakistan and want whats best for it, no matter how we think what is best for it is different in each of our eyes.

 

[Solomon2]

Even if we leave blasphemy argument aside they still committed treason by their posts and thats a crime in Pakistan

We return to the subject of who decides what is or isn't treason. Because it's obviously not Pakistan's judiciary. (Or is there some sort of official secret court involved?)

 

[Zibago]

We return to the subject of who decides what is or isn't treason. Because it's obviously not Pakistan's judiciary. (Or is there some sort of official secret court involved?)

The cyber crime law has loopholes that do allow officers to take away culprits for imvestigation thet were given certain unconstifutional powers under this law

 

[haviZsultan]

Yes.

Sandman the ayah says "Allah will punish" not "muslims have to take the theka and punish every last one person because my friends neighors cousin's grandfather said so and so had committed blasphemy"

We are overly jingoistic when talking about the blasphemy laws. I don't know how we muslim sons of lions like Ibn Rushd came to this. Everyone should think with a clear and calm head. We need to stop taking offense at everything. Christians and Jews today in the west are far more critical of their own religions than Islam. EU has come to an understanding that religion will be criticized. Representing our religion coolly and with superior knowledge is better than calling to cut the heads of those deemed to insult I say.

The problem isn't just these (unproven insults by) people against Islam. The problem is that we are too sensitive. Iqbal associated the fall of Ijtehad with our downfall. Ijtehad or religious debate should continue. Ijtehad also used to start with the various scholars/philosophers stating "I may be wrong." This is unprecendented in this time and age when the common mullah thinks he is calipha and always right despite his narrow minded views. We need that debate again. Amongst us internally, to understand that all muslims interpret and are allowed to interpret differently and externally, to show the beauty of Islam and its moral superiority to others. This can only be done through debate, not the sword.

We return to the subject of who decides what is or isn't treason. Because it's obviously not Pakistan's judiciary. (Or is there some sort of official secret court involved?)

Lets not be a typical American hypocrite who scours half the world over something known as wikileaks and arrests its founders for revealing the reality of American people who need wars like mammals need oxygen.

If we have limitations you are the father of tyrants and if you were to decide who commits treason half your population would be in jail. We need no preaching from a country of tyrants. Do you remember how many activists you put in jail for the Vietnam protests? Or how you used nukes against Japan. Let us solve our own problems. You give the mullahs air and lend them moral support. They will say, look the americans are supporting the liberals in Pakistan. We liberals will get our secular Pakistan on our own. We do not need your condescension or "support" for our cause.

 

[Solomon2]

Lets not be a typical American hypocrite who scours half the world over something known as wikileaks and arrests its founders for revealing the reality of American people who need wars like mammals need oxygen.

Taking actions out of context? You're throwing the tar but it doesn't stick - it's just a lot of tar.

If we have limitations you are the father of tyrants and if you were to decide who commits treason half your population would be in jail. We need no preaching from a country of tyrants.

Did it EVER occur to you that your "limitations" might be in your evaluation of reality? I think you're mouthing words to validate pre-existing feelings - feelings that themselves might have been evoked using lies and misrepresentations.

Do you remember how many activists you put in jail for the Vietnam protests? Or how you used nukes against Japan.

I think you need to narrow down what "treason" is in Pakistani or whatever language you're writing in.

 

[haviZsultan]

Taking actions out of context? You're throwing the tar but it doesn't stick - it's just a lot of tar.

Did it EVER occur to you that your "limitations" might be in your evaluation of reality? I think you're mouthing words to validate pre-existing feelings - feelings that themselves might have been evoked using lies and misrepresentations.

I think you need to narrow down what "treason" is in Pakistani or whatever language you're writing in.

As I expected. It is how your typical American brain works. You condemn us for judging traitors with our own parochial vision then why have you decided the founders of wikileaks or the diseminators of information for wikileaks are traitors? America will never learn until it is crushed and spattered into a paste. US is a tyrant country, totally hypocritical in its stance and has no superior moral standing with its people trying to teach us to be better. We will find a solution to our problems.

 

[Spring Onion]

On the contrary: in the name of freedom blasphemous content has to be permitted. Furthermore, only when blasphemy is an option can individuals choose the path

so why in the name of freedom saying haulocast never happend, is not permitted?

 

[The Sandman]

Sandman the ayah says "Allah will punish" not "muslims have to take the theka and punish every last one person because my friends neighors cousin's grandfather said so and so had committed blasphemy"

We are overly jingoistic when talking about the blasphemy laws. I don't know how we muslim sons of lions like Ibn Rushd came to this. Everyone should think with a clear and calm head. We need to stop taking offense at everything. Christians and Jews today in the west are far more critical of their own religions than Islam. EU has come to an understanding that religion will be criticized. Representing our religion coolly and with superior knowledge is better than calling to cut the heads of those deemed to insult I say.

The problem isn't just these (unproven insults by) people against Islam. The problem is that we are too sensitive. Iqbal associated the fall of Ijtehad with our downfall. Ijtehad or religious debate should continue. Ijtehad also used to start with the various scholars/philosophers stating "I may be wrong." This is unprecendented in this time and age when the common mullah thinks he is calipha and always right despite his narrow minded views. We need that debate again. Amongst us internally, to understand that all muslims interpret and are allowed to interpret differently and externally, to show the beauty of Islam and its moral superiority to others. This can only be done through debate, not the sword.

Agreed bro i hope you didn't got me wrong i am actually against the blasphemy law that's why i quoted that ayah to let people know what Quran says about blasphemers.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Going by your logic the martyrdom of Hussain R.A and his plans to start a revolt against Yazeed with the help of the Kufans were un-Islamic?
If someone is trying to kill a person and the state(police) is nowhere to be seen then you will just see that person getting killed and do nothing since it is the state's duty to protect it's citizens and not your obligation to stop the evil?

Those people did not commit blasphemy by mistake or something like what Salman Taseer or Rimsha Masih did. These people were churning out blasphemous content on a daily basis which is equivalent to spreading fitnah. They had nothing to do with having a healthy debate, constructive criticism or freedom of (hate)speech.
If an extremist madrassa student can get disappeared so can they, however the right thing is not to abduct people but to try them in the court.

Selective quoting ??

That's not "my" logic, mate ... That's the approach of Traditionalists/Muhaditheen and their blind followers (i.e. the reactionary, obscurantist gnosticism) which I reject .. Read my post again.


And Spreading Fitnah/Mischief on Allah's Earth no doubt is a serious crime, but whether expressing views (no matter how vitriolic) anonymously online qualifies (or not) as "Fitnah" is debatable


I agree with the last part. Courts are there for a purpose

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Those in power get to abuse it for personal or demonic purposes but you can't complain because that would be divisive? So it's better to remain ganged-up together and blame foreigners for your problems?

Your president elect (who isn't averse to "golden showers" and Russian hookers) blames Mexico, Hispanics and evil Muslims for all of americas many woes today. Your comment?

 

[Solomon2]

As I expected. It is how your typical American brain works. You condemn us for judging traitors with our own parochial vision -

Who did the judging? Not the courts. What, then, is your claim to Pakistan being a civilized country at all?


...It is when the most contentious issues come to the fore that the feeling of division is at its most acute.

One extreme view finds the state continuing to unravel. Its crucial falling-out parts choose to stand by those who must oppress and coerce and stifle and frame and plot in the name of national interest and, failing that, for the sake of religion.

They want the law to protect them only to realise later that the law itself is biased and has been honed over time in a manner that it cannot in crucial cases facilitate a fair trial. In this context, consider someone who has been falsely accused of blasphemy. This could well be the end of life for him or her here.

What could lift this gloom, this distrust in one’s powers to effect change and, above all, restore one’s confidence in one’s ability to argue without fear of being shouted down by the mob? Maybe a decision from somewhere that rekindles the belief that even the most powerful and most authoritative of them are answerable to court and accountable for their deeds to the people at large?

That is an ambitious, fate-changing turn we are desperately looking for. But do we, by any chance, sense such an occasion approaching the Pakistani people anytime in the near future?...

 

[Psychic]

what he used to say is just as bad as this Bhensa group. The press did a good job of not reporting against a sitting governor. Plus the free media wanted a martyr for their cause & they got one.
.

It was also bad but criticizing the blasphemy law was what he did and it is done by many. Basically these type of people provoke others to commit violence and then play the victim card.

Doubtless an ordinary "psychic" like yourself would know!

Their identities were exposed long ago by their relatives, friends and their opponents on the social media. If you want to behave like someone who knows all about Pakistan then continue to make an a** out of yourself on this forum as you always do by commenting on stuff about which you don't know a thing about.

You better worry about your own country where random black people get shot by the police every now and then.
Now sod off.

 

[Khafee]

Guys we get very offended with these blasphemous pages and often even blame others without proof of blasphemy but I think there are a few things to ponder here. There is a law for blasphemy against Islam. Is there a similar law for minorities too against the abuse and slandering of their religion? I have always called for elimination of blasphemy law as it is all emotions but I won't demand it against the majorities will. But at least lets amend the law to include clauses against people who falsely accuse others of blasphemy and also against the slandering of christian/hindu faiths which is far more common.

I despise Solomon and his hypocritical stand on Israel but I do admit that in article 298b/c we need to stipulate that blasphemy law also applies to insults against Christians and Hindus religion in Pakistan. Otherwise the law is discriminatory.

@Khafee I agree with you on Israel's tyranny and its historical oppression against Palestinians is visible to all but this thread is more pointing towards our own limitations and Israel is a little off topic. Our primary concern should be promoting equality in Pakistan. Then a thousand Israels can't weaken us.

Pakistanis, whether secular, liberal or conservative need to learn to live together with peace. No one should offend the other. And the common ground should be that we all love Pakistan and want whats best for it, no matter how we think what is best for it is different in each of our eyes.

Eschewed logic as usual, What gives the supporter of barbarians, and genocidal maniacs, the right to point fingers at others?

In future do not address me with your half baked crap, if you know what is good for you.

Who did the judging? Not the courts. What, then, is your claim to Pakistan being a civilized country at all?

View attachment 370539
...It is when the most contentious issues come to the fore that the feeling of division is at its most acute.

One extreme view finds the state continuing to unravel. Its crucial falling-out parts choose to stand by those who must oppress and coerce and stifle and frame and plot in the name of national interest and, failing that, for the sake of religion.

They want the law to protect them only to realise later that the law itself is biased and has been honed over time in a manner that it cannot in crucial cases facilitate a fair trial. In this context, consider someone who has been falsely accused of blasphemy. This could well be the end of life for him or her here.

What could lift this gloom, this distrust in one’s powers to effect change and, above all, restore one’s confidence in one’s ability to argue without fear of being shouted down by the mob? Maybe a decision from somewhere that rekindles the belief that even the most powerful and most authoritative of them are answerable to court and accountable for their deeds to the people at large?

That is an ambitious, fate-changing turn we are desperately looking for. But do we, by any chance, sense such an occasion approaching the Pakistani people anytime in the near future?...

The land of barbarians -Israel, is a civilized country?

Comeback and preach, when Israel stops usurping peoples land & rights. Stops ethnic cleansing, stops the systematic murder of innocent men, women and children.

 

[haviZsultan]

Who did the judging? Not the courts. What, then, is your claim to Pakistan being a civilized country at all?

View attachment 370539
...It is when the most contentious issues come to the fore that the feeling of division is at its most acute.

One extreme view finds the state continuing to unravel. Its crucial falling-out parts choose to stand by those who must oppress and coerce and stifle and frame and plot in the name of national interest and, failing that, for the sake of religion.

They want the law to protect them only to realise later that the law itself is biased and has been honed over time in a manner that it cannot in crucial cases facilitate a fair trial. In this context, consider someone who has been falsely accused of blasphemy. This could well be the end of life for him or her here.

What could lift this gloom, this distrust in one’s powers to effect change and, above all, restore one’s confidence in one’s ability to argue without fear of being shouted down by the mob? Maybe a decision from somewhere that rekindles the belief that even the most powerful and most authoritative of them are answerable to court and accountable for their deeds to the people at large?

That is an ambitious, fate-changing turn we are desperately looking for. But do we, by any chance, sense such an occasion approaching the Pakistani people anytime in the near future?...

If the courts call for the incaceration of people like Assange then it means the countries entire institutions are part of the rot. My point is clear. Americans are far worse when it comes to rights abuses. I have been to your pathetic country and know that you Americans are bred on the belief of your moral superiority. This is proved a myth when we take how you have treated rights activists like Assange. You are tyrants and will have a tyrants ending.