Betrayed, Arabized

[muse]

Here is the issue - Arabization is a cultural proposition - islam is a relgious proposition - Should Islam in Pakistan be a Arab cultural proposition?

Other have argued that yes, since Islam itself began as a Arab proposition and was rooted in the culture of Arabia, therefore, Islam not just in pakistan but everywhere, is essentially a arab cultural proposition (note the arguments about Quran in Arabic and such)

So the question arises, if indeed, we accept that islam is itself a arab cultural and religious proposition, rooted in arab, culture, then of course, Pakistan's cultural identity is mute, it's history irrelevant, because with the acceptance of Islam, the greater meaning is the acceptance of arab culture - is this not so ??

 

[Safriz]

Here is the issue - Arabization is a cultural proposition - islam is a relgious proposition - Should Islam in Pakistan be a Arab cultural proposition?

Other have argued that yes, since Islam itself began as a Arab proposition and was rooted in the culture of Arabia, therefore, Islam not just in pakistan but everywhere, is essentially a arab cultural proposition (note the arguments about Quran in Arabic and such)

So the question arises, if indeed, we accept that islam is itself a arab cultural and religious proposition, rooted in arab, culture, then of course, Pakistan's cultural identity is mute, it's history irrelevant, because with the acceptance of Islam, the greater meaning is the acceptance of arab culture - is this not so ??

You sir are only trying to complicate matters by manipulating people's comments...More than once you got your answers but as they say..

"Naa maannay waalay kaa ilaaj nahii"

and if after 44 pages you still have reservations....somebody up there may help you..

Have fun

 

[Saleem]

the islamic concept of nationhood is based on faith, practical example is the millet system of the osmanli devlet.

"religion" is an english word based on christian concept of a ordained clergy having some sort of divine sanction. islam is a faith not a religion in the english sense of the word, the ulema a professors who give opinions and, in the sunni tradition, have no divine sanction. salvation lies in the hands of the individual - how sincerely he tried to live up to the principles of islam and how far he actually manages to achieve this goal - judgment lies with God alone who knows knows how sincere were his attempts and how well he lived up to them. while one may seek guidance from scholars who have devoted their lives to the study, whether and to what extent they follow this guidance is up to them and the Nuremberg excuse of just following orders does not apply.

what we have, and have had, are states or governments run by sultans and emirs in the past, presidents today.

the "Arab nation" is a christian arab construct of the imperial powers mainly england and france - mainly from the lebanon district of bilad as sham (greater syria). some muslims educated in missionary schools of bilad as sham or in the rusdiye schools of the latter day osmanlis which were patterned on the west european christian schools. some had been sent to europe as representatives or to study. the self idenitity of muslims in the osmanli devlet was as muslim--city, tribe / clan and then muslim. another source was the egyptian govenment which was a puppet setup ever since the british ousted the french invasion led by napoleon.

the quran itself identifies itself as a arabic quran and it follows that any study of the faith requires a deep insight into the language. the cultural practices of the arabian peninsula need not be followed perhaps but I dont know about that.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Here is the issue - Arabization is a cultural proposition - islam is a relgious proposition - Should Islam in Pakistan be a Arab cultural proposition?

Other have argued that yes, since Islam itself began as a Arab proposition and was rooted in the culture of Arabia, therefore, Islam not just in pakistan but everywhere, is essentially a arab cultural proposition (note the arguments about Quran in Arabic and such)

So the question arises, if indeed, we accept that islam is itself a arab cultural and religious proposition, rooted in arab, culture, then of course, Pakistan's cultural identity is mute, it's history irrelevant, because with the acceptance of Islam, the greater meaning is the acceptance of arab culture - is this not so ??

I pointed out that the Barelivis, supposedly the 'native non-Arab sect of Islam', are at the forefront of opposing reform/repeal of the Blasphemy laws and glorifying the murderer of Taseer.

Let me also point out that the 'rape by Jirga, honor killings, marriages with the Quran, Women buried alive' are all 'indigenous and native' perversions of religion and culture -

Who are you going to blame for all the above social ills after you get done with your diatribe against the 'Arabis'?

 

[Sinnerman108]

Here is the issue - Arabization is a cultural proposition - islam is a relgious proposition - Should Islam in Pakistan be a Arab cultural proposition?

Other have argued that yes, since Islam itself began as a Arab proposition and was rooted in the culture of Arabia, therefore, Islam not just in pakistan but everywhere, is essentially a arab cultural proposition (note the arguments about Quran in Arabic and such)

So the question arises, if indeed, we accept that islam is itself a arab cultural and religious proposition, rooted in arab, culture, then of course, Pakistan's cultural identity is mute, it's history irrelevant, because with the acceptance of Islam, the greater meaning is the acceptance of arab culture - is this not so ??

MUSE what we see now is Post Islam Arab Culture, and there was a PRE Islam Arab culture.
Because the prophet came to Arabs, he transformed their culture into an Islamic one.
Traditions were changed and made to adapt Islamic teaching and that of Sunnah.

It is the basic belief of all scholars that the prophet did SUCCEED in making an ideal Islamic society during his life time.
All efforts since were taken to preserve the culture and society as such.

 

[muse]

MUSE what we see now is Post Islam Arab Culture, and there was a PRE Islam Arab culture.
Because the prophet came to Arabs, he transformed their culture into an Islamic one.
Traditions were changed and made to adapt Islamic teaching and that of Sunnah.

It is the basic belief of all scholars that the prophet did SUCCEED in making an ideal Islamic society during his life time.
All efforts since were taken to preserve the culture and society as such.

So in essence, Islam is the totality of culture in Arabia and by arabizing Pakistan, basically, one is "Islamizing" Pakistan?

 

[Safriz]

can somebody close this idiotic thread?

Hasn't this become a circular argument with the OP

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

read about pre-Islamic Arabia, when widows were being buried alive; women were being raped, women were prostituting themselves (oldest profession known to man).....people were chopping eachothers heads off more than they do now

jahhaleyya

 

[Tanna Tanni]

read about pre-Islamic Arabia, when widows were being buried alive; women were being raped, women were prostituting themselves (oldest profession known to man).....people were chopping eachothers heads off more than they do now

jahhaleyya

Ok so the kill kafir and go to djannat, do jihad and go to djannat, have as many wives as you feel, behead the blasphemors, chop off hands of petty thieves, keep women in strict hijab, not listening to music, nor flying kites, nor being able to make painting, etc are much better???

Those arabis still do the same jahhaleyya even now. Where have they evolved since then?

Only difference is that sane people from other places adapted (or were coerced to adapt) these arabi traits and aped and monkey-copied the barbarism and same jahelya practices to their own land. Vegetarians became animal slaughtering flesh-eaters. The land of knowledge taxila and indus valley (now pakistan) has become breeding ground for eager momins, ready to blow themselves up for in the name of barbaric doctrinal propositions, propagated by the arabi (foreign) religion

 

[r3alist]

Muse picks and chooses responses which give his agenda oxygen, why do the mods not see this as trolling?

 

[Tanna Tanni]

Here is the issue - Arabization is a cultural proposition - islam is a relgious proposition - Should Islam in Pakistan be a Arab cultural proposition?

Other have argued that yes, since Islam itself began as a Arab proposition and was rooted in the culture of Arabia, therefore, Islam not just in pakistan but everywhere, is essentially a arab cultural proposition (note the arguments about Quran in Arabic and such)

So the question arises, if indeed, we accept that islam is itself a arab cultural and religious proposition, rooted in arab, culture, then of course, Pakistan's cultural identity is mute, it's history irrelevant, because with the acceptance of Islam, the greater meaning is the acceptance of arab culture - is this not so ??

Sir thank you for this wonderful articulation of thoughts.

 

[Tshering22]

Here is the issue - Arabization is a cultural proposition - islam is a relgious proposition - Should Islam in Pakistan be a Arab cultural proposition?

Other have argued that yes, since Islam itself began as a Arab proposition and was rooted in the culture of Arabia, therefore, Islam not just in pakistan but everywhere, is essentially a arab cultural proposition (note the arguments about Quran in Arabic and such)

So the question arises, if indeed, we accept that islam is itself a arab cultural and religious proposition, rooted in arab, culture, then of course, Pakistan's cultural identity is mute, it's history irrelevant, because with the acceptance of Islam, the greater meaning is the acceptance of arab culture - is this not so ??

That.. was one big big fact that you mentioned, muse. It requires some serious introspection that you seem to have done into all this. Very deep thinking. Now I know that this might be stinging your fellow countrymen a lot right now as I can see in the comments following yours, but you just surpassed them all.

Very nicely said.

 

[r3alist]

Sir thank you for this wonderful articulation of thoughts.

its not wonderful at all, he is creating a straw man argument (in a convoluted way), and i think he is a bit of a chicken and troublemaker too, but thats a separate issue.

there are those in pakistan who i guess equate islam with arabization, but then thats far from a complete picture, he is too obsessed with painting a picture of IDENTITY CRISIS for EVERY pakistani, which is clearly hyperbole.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Ok so the kill kafir and go to djannat, do jihad and go to djannat, have as many wives as you feel, behead the blasphemors, chop off hands of petty thieves, keep women in strict hijab, not listening to music, nor flying kites, nor being able to make painting, etc are much better??

what a sweeping generalization. I actually laughed out loud when I saw this. It's one thing to be a cultural critic; but you seem to be speaking with much emotion which causes you to think in a dim-sighted and narrow way

Those mad arabis still do the same jahhaleyya even now. Where have they evolved since then?

and what about you mad indians who engage in mob violence (e.g. Gujrat, Orissa, etc.), those who marry dogs for ''good luck'' among other things....is it fair for me to make a broad generalization against you billion odd hindustanis?

Only difference is that sane people from other places adapted (or were coerced to adapt) this arabi religion islam and aped and monkey-copied the barbarism and same jahelya practices to their own land.

you keep calling it ''arbi religion'' when in fact barely 20% of Muslim population worldwide is Arab. . that in itself is enough to debunk your statement

Vegetarians became animal slaughtering flesh-eaters

good! People like me LOOOOOVE a good meat entree. Amen to that. I like mine medium-rare and bloody.

The land of knowledge taxila and indus valley (now pakistan) has become breeding ground for eager momins, ready to blow themselves up for in the name of barbaric doctrinal propositions, propagated by this arabi (foreign) religion

Taxila's cultural monuments and artifacts are very much intact today (UNESCO World Cultural Heritage site) as are many others throughout the country. Again, you speak with emotions that cause you to think immaturely and irrationally.

but with that bharti flag of yours in your profile, one need not dig deeper to see where or why there would be hatred, fear and lack of knowledgable thinking


when idiots like you talk about ''arbis'' -- who are you referring to anyways? Algerians? Tunisians? Egyptians? Syrians? Iraqis? Saudis? Iranian Khuzestanis? Yemenis? Lebanese?

''arbis'' are no homogenous; nor are they all Muslim. You have also Maronites, Copts, Druze, Jews, Agnostics, Atheists....

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

well Muse, you seem to have a growing fan base of saffron coloured you-know-whos.....im not sure how i'd feel about that!