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Betrayed, Arabized

Let me define Arabization from my perspective, it is the growing influence of Arab culture and customs on Non-Arab Muslim countries. Arab societal behavior and norms have been wrongly intertwined with Islamic behavior and norms. The two being completely different as Arabic culture and custom is suitable for Arabs while Muslim culture and custom is suitable for all Muslims.
Good attempt at defining Arabization - now what part of 'rape by Jirga, honor killings, marriage with the Quran, blowing up girl schools' etc is commonpractice in Saudi or the other 'Gulf Arab Countries'?

Could you point to some credible source suggesting Arab pressure behind the discriminatory treatment of Ahmadis? Bhutto was the one who took that step of codifying intolerance against a community into law, and he did it before Zia and the whole Arab and US sponsored jihad in Afghanistan.
 
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Good attempt at defining Arabization - now what part of 'rape by Jirga, honor killings, marriage with the Quran, blowing up girl schools' etc is commonpractice in Saudi or the other 'Gulf Arab Countries'?

Now when did I state that 'rape by Jirga, honor killings, marriage with the Quran, blowing up girl schools' are due to Arabization.

Seems like you have it all mixed up here.

Many of the societal ills in Pakistan are cultural, however they have been given a religious outlook because of Mullah-Feudal alliance that thrives.

Could you point to some credible source suggesting Arab pressure behind the discriminatory treatment of Ahmadis? Bhutto was the one who took that step of codifying intolerance against a community into law, and he did it before Zia and the whole Arab and US sponsored jihad in Afghanistan.

Well the Arabs, specifically the Saudi's started to back Majlis-e-Ahrar after Zafarullah Khan clashed with the Saudi's over the matter of freedom to change one's religion in 1948. Saudi representatives wanted the death penalty to be in place for those who change religion while Zafarullah said nothing of this sort is a part of Islam.

In 1948, during a drafting session of the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, representatives from Saudi Arabia clashed with Pakistan over Articles 19: freedom to change one’s religion. The furious Saudi delegate had to listen to Zafrullah Khan describe the Article as consistent with Islam’s denunciation of compulsion in religion. This Saudi anger (and possibly money) soon found its way into Pakistan's domestic politics. One year after Zafrullah Khan's clash with the Saudis at the UN, a new group called Majlis-e-Ahrar-e-Islam issued a demand that Khan be removed from the cabinet, and all Ahmadiyyas be declared non-Muslim.

December 2003 News Monitor - Prevent Genocide International

Arab's also saved Maulana Maududi and party from the death sentence which was given to them by Gen. Azam Khan for their role in the 1953 anti-Ahmadi riots.

The 69-day-long army deployment in Punjab between March 6 and May 14 1953 also saw the Jama’at-e-Islami Chief Maulana Abul Ala Maudoodi and then Secretary General of the Awami Muslim League Maulana Abdul Sattar Khan Niazi getting arrested and convicted to death for spearheading and inciting the riots, though the sentences of both these top religious clerics were subsequently commuted to life terms due to last-minute intervention of a few brother Islamic countries.

1953 Riots

It was a direct call from the Saudi King which saved the Mullah party from the gallows.

King Saud of Saudi Arabia, too, intervened on Mawdudi’s behalf with Governor-General Ghulam Muhammad;

The vanguard of the Islamic ... - Google Books

As for Bhutto, he was the first one to use the "Islam" card for popularity and he hosted the popular OIC conference which was full of very interesting stories.

The final nail in the coffin came at the Rabta-e-Alam-e-Islami Conference where the Saudi Ulema declared Ahmadi's to be out of the pale of Islam and Bhutto just followed the course.

According to Waqar Gilani, in 1973, the then president of Azad Jammu and Kashmir, Sardar Abdul Qayyum declared Ahmadis to be non-Muslims. In the same year, Rabta-e-Alam-e-Islami Conference in Saudi Arabia also gave its stamp of approval to oust Ahmadis from the circle of Islam.

Taliban oppresses Ahmadi's in Pakistan | EnerPub - Energy Publisher
 
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Good stuff T-Faz -- Some choose to describe wheat with the qualities of corn and ask us to justify their definitions
 
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Now when did I state that 'rape by Jirga, honor killings, marriage with the Quran, blowing up girl schools' are due to Arabization.

Seems like you have it all mixed up here.

Many of the societal ills in Pakistan are cultural, however they have been given a religious outlook because of Mullah-Feudal alliance that thrives.
I never said you argued the above mentioned social ills were due to 'Arabization', what I was trying to do is make a point, that many of Pakistan's social ills and intolerance are indigenous, and owe nothing to the 'Arabs forcing their barbaric beliefs on us poor Pakistanis'.

And you are correct about the distortion of religion and amalgamation of indigenous social ills and religion - but what do the Arabs have to do with this, and if they don't have anything to do with it (in terms of creating these ills) then surely the majority of Pakistan's social problems cannot be laid at the doorstep of the Arabs.

Well the Arabs, specifically the Saudi's started to back Majlis-e-Ahrar after Zafarullah Khan clashed with the Saudi's over the matter of freedom to change one's religion in 1948. Saudi representatives wanted the death penalty to be in place for those who change religion while Zafarullah said nothing of this sort is a part of Islam.

December 2003 News Monitor - Prevent Genocide International
So you mean to say that the Arabs were unsuccessful in forcing their opinion on the Pakistani leadership of that time? So you will then accept that in this case at least there is no evidence of the Arabs/Saudis successfully forcing a particular interpretation of Islam upon Pakistani society through constitutional changes brought about through pressure upon the Pakistani political leadership?

Arab's also saved Maulana Maududi and party from the death sentence which was given to them by Gen. Azam Khan for their role in the 1953 anti-Ahmadi riots.

1953 Riots

It was a direct call from the Saudi King which saved the Mullah party from the gallows.

The vanguard of the Islamic ... - Google Books
I agree, that was unforgivable intervention on the part of the Arabs in having convicted felons released, but it isn't just religious extremists that Pakistan releases under international pressure - Nawaz Sharif sent to exile in Saudi Arabia and Raymond Davis released because of US pressure.

But that said, how does intervening for the release of Madudi translate to 'forcing Arab culture upon Pakistani society'?

As for Bhutto, he was the first one to use the "Islam" card for popularity and he hosted the popular OIC conference which was full of very interesting stories.

The final nail in the coffin came at the Rabta-e-Alam-e-Islami Conference where the Saudi Ulema declared Ahmadi's to be out of the pale of Islam and Bhutto just followed the course.

Taliban oppresses Ahmadi's in Pakistan | EnerPub - Energy Publisher

The Saudis would appear to be no less tolerant than our own 'indigenous Muslims', according to the article you posted:

The campaign against them is a decade ago. Before the partition, Anti-Ahmadiyya agitation instigated by Majlis-i-Ahrar, a lower middle class party.

In 1934, Ahrar arranged a big gathering against Ahmadis called Tahafuz-e-Khatm-e-Nabuwat Conference, held at Qadian. Ahrar was angry with Ahmadiyya community to support Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah for the demand of Pakistan.


... According to Waqar Gilani, in 1973, the then president of Azad Jammu and Kashmir, Sardar Abdul Qayyum declared Ahmadis to be non-Muslims. In the same year, Rabta-e-Alam-e-Islami Conference in Saudi Arabia also gave its stamp of approval to oust Ahmadis from the circle of Islam. The unfortunate beating of the students of Nishtar Medical College, Multan, on May 29, 1974, proved to be a major incident that infuriated this anti-Ahmadi movement. The students, going on train, started shouting against Ahmadis while reaching Rabwah, the headquarter city of Ahmadis in Pakistan, resulting in a strong reaction of Ahmadis to this gathering. The incident geared up the Khatm-e-Nabuwat movement that started a violent protest.

Did the Saudi's fund or instigate those riots? If not, then would those riots, in conjunction with the anti-Ahmadi movement going back to pre-Independence, and Qayuum's comments, not support the argument that there was a viciously anti-Ahmadi segment of the population indigenous to Pakistan.

And finally, what exactly is the responsibility of Pakistanis in all this? Isn't this the liberal argument generally, 'stop blaming the Yanks, Jews and Hindus and focus on the intolerance, ills and weaknesses present domestically?

This should not be a 'Arab vs non-Arab' argument - this should be an argument over ALL distorted and intolerant interpretations of Islam. If Pakistanis want to reform Pakistani society then they need to reform themselves, not denigrate the Arabs and make bogeymen out of the 'corrupting influences of Western and/or Arab culture'.

Are we all just a bunch of mindless zombies that we just run to do whatever an Arab says we do? How utterly absurd!
 
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See the quoted post above - as I said, while your language may be more moderate than the last time which resulted in your ban, your derogatory generalizations about an entire faith and entire societies continue.

You were banned on the other place for "being an AQ supporter" as you were perceived as being supportive of OBL and AQ!

This "ban" (actually it should be "bans") of an Indian member who doesn't pull his punches on a Pakistani forum is not something that I really care about.

Again, rather than quoting me, show me what exactly was "derogatory generalizations about an entire faith and entire societies". Show me what was not factual and irrelevant to the points already made on this thread.

You are rambling and hiding behind "ban".
 
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Wow, instead of distortions, we are down to outright lies now. Apparently there is no limit to the intellectually dishonest lows you will sink to is there? But then again, what else can be expected from individuals with the levels of prejudice and hatred (towards Islam and Pakistan in your case) that you display..

How could you? As soon as you bring the rubbish above that you concocted about me, you would stand shown as a liar. Well, since you have gone ahead and done it, how about substantiating the above?

Just replying to this point here for lack of time.

Here is just one instance where you want a chance.

The questions do not go away, and I acknowledged them in my previous post, but the impact that the Indian involvement and the Mukti Bahini atrocities had on inflaming the situation cannot be ignored either. The events in 1971 were a SUM of all of these factors.

I must remind you that many nations have suffered through internal strife due to their own making. The example of the most successful and powerful nation in the world, the US, comes to mind. Slavery and segregation for hundreds of years - the conditions in East Pakistan do not even come close to the treatment meted out to the African Americans, yet the people, society and nation evolved and have overcome the worst of that legacy.

Pakistan never got that chance in East Pakistan, and the deliberate role played by Indian in ensuring that cannot be ignored, it was an integral part of the dynamics in East Pakistan leading to the horrible events of 1971.

And for the record, my response to this.

The example of USA and the African slaves is a bit far fetched. Surely the East Pakistanis were not brought in ships to do farm labor from another dark continent! The more apt comparison would be colonial attitude of Europeans in Africa.

Pakistan never got that chance in East Pakistan

Did the East Pakistanis want to give you that chance? At what cost to themselves and why?

Your choice of words does prove that you have difficulty even listening to something that is contrary to the rhetoric you have convinced yourself of. All you can do is make personal accusations and accuse them of "bigotry and hared".

I have seen repeatedly (and this tendency has only increased lately) that you work yourself up in a lather, cook up an argument that you get convinced of (and I must say that is good enough to manage the flock, people who want to think independently is another matter) and apply all these adjectives to those who don't buy into your rhetoric.

One masterpiece that I recently observed was about why did the USA even bother trying to "avenge" 9/11. As they lose more people to drugs, they should have gone after the drug barons with this ferocity rather than the terrorists who caused 9/11.

You are entitled to have your views and others are free to disagree or question your intentions in having those views.
 
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My position is pretty clear - I am extrapolating from the religious intolerance displayed by pre-Islamic Arabia, highlighted by the persecution of Mohammed and his followers for preaching a 'new faith', to support the argument that pre-Islamic Arabia likely did suffer from the various other social ills that Muslim historians argue existed.

I don't think "Muslim historians" ever said anything about "religious intolerance". Or that this "religious intolerance" had anything to do with what they called Jahiliyah.

I replied to a post about the supposed social ills during Jahiliyah. You converted that to the "persecution of Mohammed and his followers for preaching a 'new faith'". The obvious question that would be raised now is whether a new prophet and his followers will be persecuted more or less in an Islamic society.

I have already shared my thoughts on this issue and I think empirical evidence supports my position.

Also the "religious intolerance" does not necessarily mean that the supposed social evils were present in that society as alleged. Or they were present to a greater degree than afterwards.

A distortion of my position on the subject of political reconciliation in Afghanistan for 'peace', as is usual with you.

Yes, peace that you think suits your "strategic depth" paradigm. The peace of the graveyard. The peace that comes from the women all being behind the four walls and the non-Pushtuns conveniently put in their places if at all they were allowed to live.

Of course this is usual for you to offer verbal homilies for an outcome that you think is in your interests. Those women and Afghans be damned.

Wow, instead of distortions, we are down to outright lies now. Apparently there is no limit to the intellectually dishonest lows you will sink to is there? But then again, what else can be expected from individuals with the levels of prejudice and hatred (towards Islam and Pakistan in your case) that you display..

How could you? As soon as you bring the rubbish above that you concocted about me, you would stand shown as a liar. Well, since you have gone ahead and done it, how about substantiating the above?

I have shared one instance already. I have seen it coming from you more than once. Its always about Pakistan (you mean West Pakistan) didn't get another chance. That presupposes that you were somehow the prima donna.

The fact that East Pakistanis were the majority of Pakistanis doesn't seem to matter. Your predominant narrative is that it was thousands of KMs from the mainland (!!!!) and could not be defended easily. The wishes of the majority Pakistanis of the time obviously seems to matter little in this narrative.

There is a significant difference between your ban and mine - yours was for derogatory generalizations about a faith. Mine was over countering an argument by a moderator regarding the 'veracity of sources' - the same moderator then threatened to ban Asim if he refused to support the official American position of the OBL raid and Drone Strikes being legal under international law.

No. I differ about the reason of mine as well as your ban. You were almost coming across as a supporter of AQ/OBL and that is what must have prompted the ban. Asim's case was a bit different and I thought that was a bit extreme on their part.

There is a world of difference between the justifications used on each forum - we demand civility, respect and avoidance of derogatory generalizations against nations, peoples and faiths. The forum you refer to was threatening bans over the refusal of Pakistani members to accept the official American position on a subject that remains unresolved and the focus of much debate internationally, including inside the US.

So this is one example of civility as per you?

Abbey bosri k. Aja milne, jaan hay toh. Bohot din ho gaya kisi ko marne may. Maza ah jaye ga, kasam sey. :smokin:

This kind of stuff happens daily here. So does the "drink piss" and "rat worship" act. I don't suppose one has to dig out the numerous posts here.

A fine example of "civility, respect and avoidance of derogatory generalizations against nations, peoples and faiths" indeed, your ishtyle.

The Shia disagree with the choice of the first three Caliphs, that is an argument of history, but the sectarian divide did not even exist until much later. The Shia disagreement over the choice of the first three Caliphs does not negate the argument of theological historians about the kind of government/State run by those Caliphs.

We are not really discussing "theological historians" but facts that can be discussed in the absence of having to take something on faith.

Because that is what humans and societies, which as you agree are flawed, will do. It does not matter to me that an American Evangelist may think I will 'burn in eternal hellfire' for not believing in Jesus, so long as that Evangelist keeps to his own business and does not shove his beliefs in my face. I have no problem with conservative Muslims looking down upon my pratice/non-practice of traditional Islam, so long as they mind their own business and don't shove their beliefs in my face.

What I am getting at is that personal beliefs are not the issue, even if they revolve around the 'other' burning in eternal hellfire, it s the imposition of personal beliefs on others, especially those that do not share them, that is the issue.

It has never remained at the "personal level" and it has been about "imposition of personal beliefs on others, especially those that do not share them". But of course I don't want to have that discussion here. Its not really relevant to this thread.

That is not what is 'at the heart of this thread' - this thread is about generalizing and denigrating an entire peoples and culture - Arabs.

My argument is that rather than creating bogeymen of 'Arabs, Wahabis, Agencies, Great Satan etc.', we focus on the specific issues plaguing our society and nation, and many of those issues (such as the social ills I pointed out in my previous posts) have nothing to do with 'Arabi's'.

The 'Arabi' is merely a convenient scapegoat currently for liberals of a particular bent, much like the 'Great Satan' is a scapegoat for social conservatives of a particular bent.

It was never about "generalizing and denigrating an entire peoples and culture - Arabs", at least as I understood it. It was not so much about the Arabs but about "Arabization" in the context of Pakistan.

Of course, in your typical way, you tried to turn the whole thing on it's head, linking it to "personal preferences", "generalizing and denigrating an entire peoples and culture - Arabs" and pointing out some "local cultural practices".

This is what a typical spin doctor does and you are nothing if not a spin doctor.

"Arabization" was never about personal choice and it has caused massive disturbance in the Pakistani society and an identity crisis.

That you want to brush it all away is also typical.

As I mentioned earlier, playing with words doesn't solve real world issues. Else you would have solved all the issues already.
 
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I never said you argued the above mentioned social ills were due to 'Arabization', what I was trying to do is make a point, that many of Pakistan's social ills and intolerance are indigenous, and owe nothing to the 'Arabs forcing their barbaric beliefs on us poor Pakistanis'.

We had our own social ills which were exaggerated with the arrival of unnecessary Arabization during Bhutto's rule that was later formalized by Zia. We could have done without sectarian issues, we could have done without faux Islamic laws like Blasphemy, Zina etc and we surely want to run our own affairs but it all changed in those years.

The Saudi's say they are directly involved as participants in running the state of Pakistan

"We in Saudi Arabia are not observers in Pakistan, we are participants."

WikiLeaks Reveals Saudi Arabia's Role in Pakistani Affairs - TIME

So if they claim to be participants, then they also have a role in our pathetic state.

And you are correct about the distortion of religion and amalgamation of indigenous social ills and religion - but what do the Arabs have to do with this, and if they don't have anything to do with it (in terms of creating these ills) then surely the majority of Pakistan's social problems cannot be laid at the doorstep of the Arabs.

I am not blaming the Arabs for all our ills, what I do blame them for is their involvment in the state of Pakistan which was furthered excavated our problems.

The Sauds even sent a scholar to implement laws in Pakistan which has caused nothing but problems for Pakistan.

So you mean to say that the Arabs were unsuccessful in forcing their opinion on the Pakistani leadership of that time? So you will then accept that in this case at least there is no evidence of the Arabs/Saudis successfully forcing a particular interpretation of Islam upon Pakistani society through constitutional changes brought about through pressure upon the Pakistani political leadership?

They were unsuccessful indeed but it would take a lot to prove Zafarullah wrong over such matters. Remember that these were the early days and Zafarullah Khan was appointed as one of the writers of UN's Human Charter. The Saudi call for death penalty over change of religion resulted in a lot of negative press for Islam. Zafarullah Khan stepped in to salvage the situation and went to argue with the Saudi representatives over this matter through a long debate with references to Islamic text which proved the Saudi's wrong. He then went to a popular American radio show to talk about Islam and clear any misconceptions that exist. Here is a video which covers his American radio broadcast:


However as time went by, the Saudi's were successful in forcing a particular interpretation of Islam upon Pakistani society through constitutional changes. Allama Iqbal's son came on TV recently and gave a complete detail of what occured in the 80's.

He (Javid Iqbal) even named Dualibi as the Arab scholar who was sent to Pakistan by Saudi Arabia to impose the laws that Pakistan was averse to enforcing. The fact is that the 1980 Zakat & Ushr Ordinance, imposed by General Zia on Sunnis and Shias, was framed by Dualibi in Arabic. Javid Iqbal clearly said that moderate and liberal elements were silent because they feared harm at the hands of extremist forces. He equally despaired of politicians.

Was Jinnah secular? – The Express Tribune

I agree, that was unforgivable intervention on the part of the Arabs in having convicted felons released, but it isn't just religious extremists that Pakistan releases under international pressure - Nawaz Sharif sent to exile in Saudi Arabia and Raymond Davis released because of US pressure.

But that said, how does intervening for the release of Madudi translate to 'forcing Arab culture upon Pakistani society'?

This was the first instance where foreign pressure caused Pakistani's to alter something that damaged the effectiveness of law in this country.

As for Maududi, he was the only one who was of the same thought process as the Saudi's and he became their man in Pakistan leading the way for its eventual Islamization.

The Saudis would appear to be no less tolerant than our own 'indigenous Muslims', according to the article you posted:

The campaign against them is a decade ago. Before the partition, Anti-Ahmadiyya agitation instigated by Majlis-i-Ahrar, a lower middle class party.

In 1934, Ahrar arranged a big gathering against Ahmadis called Tahafuz-e-Khatm-e-Nabuwat Conference, held at Qadian. Ahrar was angry with Ahmadiyya community to support Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah for the demand of Pakistan.


... According to Waqar Gilani, in 1973, the then president of Azad Jammu and Kashmir, Sardar Abdul Qayyum declared Ahmadis to be non-Muslims. In the same year, Rabta-e-Alam-e-Islami Conference in Saudi Arabia also gave its stamp of approval to oust Ahmadis from the circle of Islam. The unfortunate beating of the students of Nishtar Medical College, Multan, on May 29, 1974, proved to be a major incident that infuriated this anti-Ahmadi movement. The students, going on train, started shouting against Ahmadis while reaching Rabwah, the headquarter city of Ahmadis in Pakistan, resulting in a strong reaction of Ahmadis to this gathering. The incident geared up the Khatm-e-Nabuwat movement that started a violent protest.

There is always opposition to all religious groups but Majlis-e-Ahrar/Khatme-Nabuwat was a breakaway group created and funded by the Congress. Their intention was political and their purpose to stop the demand for Pakistan becoming stronger amongst the people of British India.

The Short And Sordid History Of Majlis-e-Ahrar-e-Islam | Pak Tea House

These people have every right to voice their opinion against Ahmadi's but when they spread hatred and instigate violence, then it become a state problem. Unfortunately they were able to get their demands to become a part of the constitution in this state. This all happened only after the Saudi's gave their stamp of approval and the pressure on Bhutto made him do the necessary.

Did the Saudi's fund or instigate those riots? If not, then would those riots, in conjunction with the anti-Ahmadi movement going back to pre-Independence, and Qayuum's comments, not support the argument that there was a viciously anti-Ahmadi segment of the population indigenous to Pakistan.

Like I said, the anti-Ahmadi movement existed since the 30's but they were only able to gain the kind of power that they did when the Saudis started to support them. In their view, Ahmadi's had been the worst thing to walk on this planet but it was just their view, however it become a part of the constitution through Saudi pressure and later a Saudi scholar.

And finally, what exactly is the responsibility of Pakistanis in all this? Isn't this the liberal argument generally, 'stop blaming the Yanks, Jews and Hindus and focus on the intolerance, ills and weaknesses present domestically?

Pakisan's responsibility is to be factual in their standing, they should find their own faults which allowed this to occur and who are the "participants" in all this. The "participants" should be paid in kind, that is all.

This should not be a 'Arab vs non-Arab' argument - this should be an argument over ALL distorted and intolerant interpretations of Islam. If Pakistanis want to reform Pakistani society then they need to reform themselves, not denigrate the Arabs and make bogeymen out of the 'corrupting influences of Western and/or Arab culture'.

Arabization is the forced implementation of a distorted and intolerant interpretation of Islam.

Are we all just a bunch of mindless zombies that we just run to do whatever an Arab says we do? How utterly absurd!

We don't but our leaders do, especially over matters of religion.
 
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Arabization is the forced implementation of a distorted and intolerant interpretation of Islam.

Thank you , At least somebody has given some definition to it.
 
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In my opinion T-Faz if most Pakistanis do not want to implement God's laws in their country then its their choice. There should be a poll or something that says you guys need do not want God's laws practiced in Pakistan anymore it is in the end of the day what the people want and should not be enforced by the government.
 
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In my opinion T-Faz if most Pakistanis do not want to implement God's laws in their country then its their choice. There should be a poll or something that says you guys need do not want God's laws practiced in Pakistan anymore it is in the end of the day what the people want and should not be enforced by the government.

Who defined what God's law is?

The interpretation of God's law differs from one sect to another in Islam.

When the new "Islamic" laws, created by the Saudi scholar Dualibi, were implemented in Pakistan, all they achieved was violent inter-fighting between major Islamic sects like Shia's and Sunni's.

The Shia's took out major rallies against these laws because according to their interpretation this wasn't Sharia as it is meant to be.

You know how many people have died from that point onwards because of the spark that these laws ignited between Muslims.

How can God's law result in violence, bloodshed and so much destruction?

The people have been brainwashed to such an extent here that they support murder openly, this isn't the same Pakistan it used to be, this country has suffered because the Saudi interpretation of Islam was forced onto this nation.

I don't have a problem with the people of nations like Saudi Arabia or USA but I cannot stand their leaders, all that they have done is cause problems for Pakistan in pursuit of their own goals.

To save Pakistan, we have to oppose any foreign intervention and the American/Saudi combo is the biggest threat to this state.
 
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Who defined what God's law is?

The interpretation of God's law differs from one sect to another in Islam.

When the new "Islamic" laws, created by the Saudi scholar Dualibi, were implemented in Pakistan, all they achieved was violent inter-fighting between major Islamic sects like Shia's and Sunni's.

The Shia's took out major rallies against these laws because according to their interpretation this wasn't Sharia as it is meant to be.

You know how many people have died from that point onwards because of the spark that these laws ignited between Muslims.

How can God's law result in violence, bloodshed and so much destruction?

The people have been brainwashed to such an extent here that they support murder openly, this isn't the same Pakistan it used to be, this country has suffered because the Saudi interpretation of Islam was forced onto this nation.

I don't have a problem with the people of nations like Saudi Arabia or USA but I cannot stand their leaders, all that they have done is cause problems for Pakistan in pursuit of their own goals.

To save Pakistan, we have to oppose any foreign intervention and the American/Saudi combo is the biggest threat to this state.

The interpretation of God's Law can be easily defined by the Quran and the Prophet's saying.

When there is doubt about a certain issue you should not hold rallies and kill people this is not even the Sharia followed in Saudi Arabia instead you sit and debate about it.
 
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You were banned on the other place for "being an AQ supporter" as you were perceived as being supportive of OBL and AQ!
Then the moderators lied in public about the reasons for the ban, since the reason given to me was a refusal to not retract my arguments against the 'veracity of certain sources' and supposedly 'answer S2'.

Here is Zraver's actual post regarding that particular issue - you would do well to at least research an issue before making nonsensical claims about it;

S-2 has been very clear on Pakistani support of the Hagganni Taliban and you keep ignoring him, I suggest you answer him asap- with information up to the standards you've already established. Failure to do so will be seen as trolling.

Second, we have an actual PM from Zraver to Asim indicating that Pakistani members would be banned for arguing against the legality of the OBL raid and drone strikes, so no, your interpretation of the 'bans' is completely incorrect. You have either been fed a bunch of BS by the admins/mods of that forum or are inventing this yourself.

This "ban" (actually it should be "bans") of an Indian member who doesn't pull his punches on a Pakistani forum is not something that I really care about.
We know you don't care, that is why you were banned despite being asked several times to stop making derogatory generalizations about an entire nation and religion.
Again, rather than quoting me, show me what exactly was "derogatory generalizations about an entire faith and entire societies". Show me what was not factual and irrelevant to the points already made on this thread.

You are rambling and hiding behind "ban".
I showed you through your own post what I saw as a 'derogatory generalization'. If you will state that none of your arguments apply to Islam as a whole or to most Muslims and/or to most Pakistanis, then I will admit that I interpreted your post incorrectly.
 
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Just replying to this point here for lack of time.

Here is just one instance where you want a chance.

And for the record, my response to this.

At no point did I suggest or state that Pakistan should have 'another chance' at governing what used to be East Pakistan. What I argued was that nations go through internal upheavals and civil strife, and many other nations, including the US, battled out their issues and resolved them in the long run, over hundreds of years.

When you argue about 'did East Pakistanis want that chance', one could make the same case about the US South in the Civil War - they did not want to be a part of a US moving towards anti-slavery. The US has had a long time to fix its slavery, racism, bigotry and segregationist policies - Pakistan should have had the same opportunity - but when I argue 'should have had that chance', I refer to the past, at no point do I state or imply that Pakistan 'should have a chance at governing Bangladesh again'.
Your choice of words does prove that you have difficulty even listening to something that is contrary to the rhetoric you have convinced yourself of. All you can do is make personal accusations and accuse them of "bigotry and hared".
When you can end your diatribes against Pakistan, its ideology and its creation and the 'Muslim invaders', I'll agree that you have moved beyond your 'bigotry and hatred'. That does not mean you end your criticism of specific policies or events (ransacking of temples etc.), but your broad derogatory generalizations only lead to one conclusion about your mindset, IMO.
I have seen repeatedly (and this tendency has only increased lately) that you work yourself up in a lather, cook up an argument that you get convinced of (and I must say that is good enough to manage the flock, people who want to think independently is another matter) and apply all these adjectives to those who don't buy into your rhetoric.
If you disagree with an argument of mine then feel free to try and refute it - currently I am not the one who tried to justify Farhat Taj's outlandish claims by posting links that refer back to Farhat Taj herself. Your anti-Pakistan prejudice is so strong that you have convinced yourself of every unsubstantiated claim she makes, despite a plethora of Western and Pakistani studies and polling data showing the exact opposite of what she claims. Now that is called 'cooking up arguments'.
One masterpiece that I recently observed was about why did the USA even bother trying to "avenge" 9/11. As they lose more people to drugs, they should have gone after the drug barons with this ferocity rather than the terrorists who caused 9/11.
My argument was far more subtle than that, and I don't mind continuing it. Feel free to copy over my posts and the responses to them onto this forum and we can continue that in detail.
You are entitled to have your views and others are free to disagree or question your intentions in having those views.

Disagree all you want, but please refrain from derogatory generalizations about Islam, Muslims and/or Pakistanis.
 
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