Betrayed, Arabized

[JonAsad]

No one tells us the history of our people; No one teaches us the languages our forefathers spoke; No one tells us the stories of our gallant people who shed their blood to keep this land and its peaceful and industrious people free from slavery.

Maybe these things are not as much important compared to what you are being thought?-

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Maybe these things are not as much important compared to what you are being thought?-

Actually he is right... we are not taught about our forefathers...Which is very important.

And urdu is somewhat imposed on us...

 

[JonAsad]

Actually he is right... we are not taught about our forefathers...Which is very important.

And urdu is somewhat imposed on us...

Well- the glorious history of our forefathers is to be taught- and is necessary- i agree- but its comparison to religious history is some what over stretched-

Urdu is the national language- it is meant to be enforced- although i like Punjabi more-

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The opening post actually dealt with the dilution of the indigenous culture of Pakistan. The religion in itself never was the issue in this thread, till a few tried their best to drag it in.

Again, what exactly is wrong with a 'dilution of the indigenous culture of Pakistan'? Is the same not happening in both Pakistan and (perhaps more so) India with respect to Western cultural and linguistic influences becoming commonplace? Will you deny that any society exposed to external influences will absorb, to varying degrees, aspects of those influences.

Why is just the 'Arabian' influence an issue? Why not also condemn jeans, trousers, suits, soaps, talent shows, etc. etc. etc. ..... (and yes, some conservative elements in both countries do condemn those 'Western influences' and are ridiculed by many).

As I said to Muse - be specific - merely condemning all 'Arabs and Arabian culture' is painting with a very broad brush and likely to lead nowhere. Protest intolerance, discrimination, inequality - not whether someone feels more pride in Mohammed Bin Qasim or Ghauri instead of Ranjit Singh.

 

[President Camacho]

Again, what exactly is wrong with a 'dilution of the indigenous culture of Pakistan'? Is the same not happening in both Pakistan and (perhaps more so) India with respect to Western cultural and linguistic influences becoming commonplace? Will you deny that any society exposed to external influences will absorb, to varying degrees, aspects of those influences.

Why is just the 'Arabian' influence an issue? Why not also condemn jeans, trousers, suits, soaps, talent shows, etc. etc. etc. ..... (and yes, some conservative elements in both countries do condemn those 'Western influences' and are ridiculed by many).

As I said to Muse - be specific - merely condemning all 'Arabs and Arabian culture' is painting with a very broad brush and likely to lead nowhere. Protest intolerance, discrimination, inequality - not whether someone feels more pride in Mohammed Bin Qasim or Ghauri instead of Ranjit Singh.

I never said there was anything wrong, or right, or despicable, or appreciative about absorbing a different culture. It has been happening all over since time immemorial. My query and arguments, more or less, revolved around the specific need of the Arabic language to understand Quran. It is important, because a great number of Muslims do not understand Arabic.

In India, it (cultural influence) has been happening at a quicker pace than in Pakistan. But I am not complaining.

I am not even condemning the Arabs, or the Americans or the Brits, for that matter.

But quite like Muse, I would complain if I were a Pakistani - because of the present situation of Pakistan. People of every modern nation share a collective identity. This identity of the Pakistani people appears very vulnerable these days. It already seems to be broken in a few different ideologies and ethnicities. Any blind support for any foreign nation or culture can be extremely risky in these times. And then you take into account the historic influence of the Saudi Arabia in funding the Madrassas that... well you know.

So yes, if I were a Pakistani, I would stop anything foreign that even remotely appears to replace the national identity.

 

[Rafi]

I never said there was anything wrong, or right, or despicable, or appreciative about absorbing a different culture. It has been happening all over since time immemorial. My query and arguments, more or less, revolved around the specific need of the Arabic language to understand Quran. It is important, because a great number of Muslims do not understand Arabic.

In India, it (cultural influence) has been happening at a quicker pace than in Pakistan. But I am not complaining.

I am not even condemning the Arabs, or the Americans or the Brits, for that matter.

But quite like Muse, I would complain if I were a Pakistani - because of the present situation of Pakistan. People of every modern nation share a collective identity. This identity of the Pakistani people appears very vulnerable these days. It already seems to be broken in a few different ideologies and ethnicities. Any blind support for any foreign nation or culture can be extremely risky in these times. And then you take into account the historic influence of the Saudi Arabia in funding the Madrassas that... well you know.

So yes, if I were a Pakistani, I would stop anything foreign that even remotely appears to replace the national identity.

Musey is hardly representative of Pakistani's - we are amalgamation of different things that come together and make a Pakistani - and we are very happy.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So yes, if I were a Pakistani, I would stop anything foreign that even remotely appears to replace the national identity.

Perhaps, but Pakistan is not China, and people cannot be forced into accepting one particular 'culture/ideology' over another, especially when the arguments being made are against 'Arabia/Islam' which has a strong emotional hold on many Pakistanis, and likely to lead to more violence in case of attempts to 'force change upon Pakistanis'.

The best way ahead, both from a security and societal evolution/change, lies in better governance and civilian law enforcement and judicial institutions - only when there is political, economic and security related stability will frank and open social discourse take place and build alternate narratives.

 

[President Camacho]

Musey is hardly representative of Pakistani's - we are amalgamation of different things that come together and make a Pakistani - and we are very happy.

I never said Muse is a representative of every Pakistani. And I never denied anything else that you have said in this post.

But when you iterate an out of context assertion, it makes the other party appear against it. Please try not to do that.

 

[53fd]

I think it is safe to say that Pakistan (besides the tribal areas) is nothing like an Arab country. Pakistanis do not culturally/socially relate with "Arabization", but more on a religious level, as the Quran, & the other sources of guidance (Ahadith, Sunnah etc) of Islam are in Arabic. However, Pakistan also has lots of Afghan, Persian, Tibetan, Tajik etc roots as well that have nothing to do with India.

 

[Al Bhatti]

Two different threads regarding Arabic started in a span of two days!



Below was posted by Muhammad Yahya here on 21-7-2010

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Aga Khan on Arabic as National Language of Pakistan

Sultan Muhammad Shah Aga Khan, the 48th Fatimid Imam Caliph and founder of Pakistan at a session of Motamer al-Alam-al-Islamiyya on February 9, 1951 in Karachi said:

“I can assure you that it is not with a light heart that I address you this evening. I fully realise that what I am going to say will make me most unpopular with important sections of the population. However, I would be a traitor to Islam if I let this opportunity pass without placing before the people of this powerful and populous Islamic nation the views which I consider my duty to place before the Muslims with as many of the arguments as I am capable of using in a short address.

I fear some of my arguments will mortally offend those who under totally different conditions gave so much of their life for the support of the cause which I think today has been passed by events far more important than any dreamt of in those days. I feel the responsibility greater than any I can think of to place my views and arguments before the Muslim population of Pakistan as a whole - each and every province - while what I consider a tragic and deadly step is not yet taken and not added to the constitution of this realm.

The language of a nation is not only the expression of its own voice but the mode of interpretation with all other human societies. Before it is too late, I, an old man, implore my brothers in Islam here not to finally decide for Urdu as the national language of Pakistan but to choose Arabic. Please hear my arguments.

If what was the other part of the former British Empire of India had made Urdu its national language, there would have been a great argument for Pakistan doing ditto. It could have been a linguistic and important point of contact with the vast Republic of the South. I am the last man on earth to desire to break any bridge of contact and understanding between Pakistan and its immense neighbour. Not only Urdu but even Hindustani has been replaced by Hindi throughout Bharat as the national language. The people of Bharat were perfectly justified to choose any language which the majority considered most appropriate and historically justified to be their national language. The majority there has the right to choose what was most suitable for them as the official language of the country.

Your choice in Pakistan of Urdu will in no way ameliorate or help your relations with your neighbour, nor will it help the Muslim minorities there in any conceivable way. Howsoever you may add Arabic and Persian words to Urdu there is no denying the fact that the syntax, the form, the fundamentals of the language are derived from Hindi and not from Arabic. Was Urdu the language of the Muslims of India at the time of their glory? During the long Pathan period, Urdu was never considered the language of the rulers.

Now we come to the Moghul Empire in the period of its glory. It was not the language of the educated. I defy anybody to produce a letter or any other form of writing by Emperors Aurangzeb, Shah Jehan, Jehangir, Akbar, Humayun or Babar in Urdu language. All that was spoken at the Court was Persian or occasional Turkish. I have read many of the writings of Aurangzeb and they are in beautiful Persian. Same is true if you go to the Taj Mahal and read what is written on the tombs of the Emperor and his famous consort. Persian was the court language and the language of the educated and even till the early 19th century in far Bengal, the Hindu intelligentsia wrote and used Persian and not Urdu. Up to the time of Macaulay, Persian was the language of Bengali upper classes irrespective of faith and of official documents and various Sadar Adalat. We must look historical facts in the face. Urdu became the language of Muslim India after the downfall. It is a language associated with the downfall. Its great poets are of the downfall period. The last and the greatest of them was lqbal, who with the inspiration of revival gave up Urdu poetry for Persian poetry. There was a meeting in Iqbal’s honour in London organised by men such as Prof. Nicholson. I was present at that meeting. Iqbal said that he went in for Persian poetry because it was associated with the greatness of the Islamic epoch and not with its misfortunes. Is it right that the language of the downfall period should become the national language of what we hope now is a phoenix-like national rising? All the great masters of Urdu belong to the period of greatest depression and defeat. It was then a legitimate attempt by the use of a language of Hindi derivation with Arabic and Persian words to find ways and means of better understanding with the then majority fellow countrymen.

Today that vast British dependency is partitioned and succeeded by two independent and great nations and the whole world hopes that both sides now accept partition as final. Is it a natural and national language of the present population of Pakistan? Is it the language of Bengal where the majority of Muslims live? Is it what you. hear in the streets of Dacca or Chittagong? Is it the language of the North West Frontier? Is it the language of Sind? Is it the language of the Punjab? Certainly after the fall of the Mughal Empire the Muslims and Hindus of certain areas found in it a common bond, but now today other forms of bridges must be found for mutual understanding. Who were the creators of Urdu? What are the origins of Urdu? Where did it come from? The camp followers, the vast Hindi-speaking population attached to the Imperial Court who adapted, as they went along, more Arabic and Persian words into the syntax. of their own language just as in later days the English words such as glass and cup became part of a new form of Urdu called Hindustani. Are you going to make the language of the Camp, or of the Court, the national language of your new-born realm? Every Muslim child of a certain economic standard learns the Quran in Arabic, whether he is from Dacca or Quetta. He learns Arabic to read the Quran.

Arabic is the language of Islam. The Qur’an is in Arabic. The Prophet’s hadith are in Arabic. The highest form of Islamic culture in Spain was in Arabic. Your children must learn Arabic to a certain extent always. The same is true of your West whether Sind, Baluchistan or the North. From the practical and worldly point of view, Arabic will give you, as a national language, immediate contact not only with the 40 million Arabic-speaking people of independent nations on your West, but the other 60 million more or less Arabic-speaking people who are not independent but who exist in Africa. Right up to the Atlantic, not only in North but as far South as Nigeria and the Gold Coast, Arabic is known to the upper classes of the population. In all the Sudans, on the Nile or under French rule, Arabic is the language right up to the borders of Portuguese West Africa. In East Africa, not only in Zanzibar but amongst the Muslim population of even countries as far apart as Madagascar and Portuguese East Africa, Arabic is known. If we turn to the Far East, Arabic has prospered throughout the region inhabited by 80 million Muslims of Indonesia, Malaya and Philippines. In Ceylon, Muslim children of the well-to-do classes get some knowledge of Arabic.

Is it not right and proper that this powerful Muslim State of Pakistan, with its central geographical position, its bridges between the nearly 100 million Muslims of the East and 100 million Muslims of the West - its position of the East from Philippines and the Great State of Indonesia and Malaya and Burma and then westward with the hundred millions in Africa, right up to the Atlantic, should make Arabic its national language and not isolate itself from all its neighbors and from the world of Islam with a language that was associated with the period of downfall of Muslim States.

And finally, whi1e Arabic, as a universal language of the Muslim world will unite, Urdu will divide and isolate. Gentlemen, brothers in Islam, people of Pakistan, people of every Province, I appeal to you, before you take the final and what I unfortunately must say, I consider, the fatal jump down the precipice, please discuss and let all and every one contribute their views. Take time and think over it. Once more I appeal for Islamic charity from those whom I may have offended and I appeal to all others to look to the facts in the face both historically and as they exist at present. I pray that the people of this country may be guided by Divine Wisdom before they decide.”

-----

Off topic:

I studied English, Japanese (I can only read Hiragana and Katakana though) Hebrew and Turkish.

Did you learn Hebrew in KSU?

 

[President Camacho]

Perhaps, but Pakistan is not China, and people cannot be forced into accepting one particular 'culture/ideology' over another, especially when the arguments being made are against 'Arabia/Islam' which has a strong emotional hold on many Pakistanis, and likely to lead to more violence in case of attempts to 'force change upon Pakistanis'.

The best way ahead, both from a security and societal evolution/change, lies in better governance and civilian law enforcement and judicial institutions - only when there is political, economic and security related stability will frank and open social discourse take place and build alternate narratives.

That's the point (bold one) I too am trying to make. As long as people themselves go on to take upon a language or a culture, it is no problem at all. That way, even if 100% of all the Pakistani people go to Arabia or learn Arabic, it will only end up in greater good because people are following their heart. I myself dress like the westerners and speak their language. Doesn't feel anything's lost on me.

But if even a single person is forced or tricked into something that person himself is not, then it will only end up in disaster. Might result in an abnormal personality, a bit too timid, or unmanageably aggressive.

I remember when I was a kid, we were being taught the signs of civilization. It was told to us that the first and foremost sign of a progressive society or an advanced civilization is not its technical advancements or its military might. That it is the free thinking that the individuals can practice and yet enjoy complete security while at that.

If the governance gets better, people feel security, then indeed there's nothing lost, no matter who adopts what. A widespread practice of free thinking will be an even bigger platform for the people to look outward and adopt different cultures and languages. So it seems the secret lies in the security that people feel in Pakistan.

And well, as we have always concluded, the onus with respect to the responsibilities of the nation, again falls on the institutions within.

 

[Mosamania]

Did you learn Hebrew in KSU?

No I learned all my languages except for Arabic and Turkish (My Turkish is still very bad but I get the point across lol) self taught.

I learned Hebrew through a combination of learning to read and write it through this site Hebrew language, alphabet and pronunciation
And then I started reading Hebrew articles and Hebrew sites and translating the words I didn't know.

Sorry for going off-topic just answering his question.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I studied English, Japanese (I can only read Hiragana and Katakana though) Hebrew and Turkish.

If you learn Japanese Kanji, you'll be able to read Chinese as well.

On topic, I think the Muslims in China's Xinjiang province can read and write in both Arabic and Chinese characters, it would be interesting to know how the translation works out.

 

[Mosamania]

If you learn Japanese Kanji, you'll be able to read Chinese as well.

On topic, I think the Muslims in China's Xinjiang province can read and write in both Arabic and Chinese characters, it would be interesting to know how the translation works out.

I know but Kanji requires its own dedicated study and time. Something I do not have in large amounts.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

its only outsiders who know nothing about Pakistan or never lived there ---they are the ones who keep saying this "arabized" business

what is arabized? even within "arab culture" there are soo many differences. So which 'arab' are these numb-nuts referring to anyways?


Pakistanis in terms of temperment, culture and other things are unique within themselves so why this talk of "Arabized"


silly people focusing on non-issues