Besides Kashmir, What else are the reason of animosity between India and Pakistan?

[Shajida Khan]

Why should Ladakh go to India? Ladakh has a Muslim population that is almost half of Ladakh's.

Besides people tried the Chenab formula which is kind of similar to your post waz.

Except Valley and Ladakh go to Pakistan while Jammu goes to India I think.

Anything south of the Chenab River in Jammu and Kashmir goes to India, which is "South Jammu."

You see going to Pakistan is not a part of this discussion. Leaving alone is indeed. What Kashmiris do after they part with India in this discussion is an altogether different debate.
Now, On Laddakh, I am yet to hear that Dards of Laddhak are in mood to part with India.

Not to mention, Leh is 66% Buddhist. Kargil is 76% Muslim.

I am keeping Laddhak out of the discussion for a reason. It is because leaning of Laddhaki Muslims is not exactly clear. Kashmiri Muslims lean towards leaving India.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Let's be honest it really is just Kashmir. If it is ever resolved the two will get on very well.

brother, there are cultural differences as well.

 

[Shajida Khan]

Well, everyone is looking for jobs in the subcontinent. They would continue to join the Pakistani Army once they merge with Pakistan to fight the Afghanis.

But creating jobs in military is the worst way to grow the economy of a country.

I wish India could save and invest all this money in more productive areas of the economy.

I also hope Nepal would stake claims on UP & Bihar regions of India. This would surely catapult Indian economy like never before.

Of course money talks and BS walks.

Well, you cann't make any state properous only on alms. You have to create situation so that they start producing some value on their own. Thats why I say, integrating Kashmir by removing 370 is the way forward to make Kashmir prosperous. But that this is turning into a different discussion. Lets keep discussion only on the topic.

 

[waz]

Why should Ladakh go to India? Ladakh has a Muslim population that is almost half of Ladakh's.

Besides people tried the Chenab formula which is kind of similar to your post waz.

Except Valley and Ladakh go to Pakistan while Jammu goes to India I think.

Anything south of the Chenab River in Jammu and Kashmir goes to India, which is "South Jammu."

Ladakh's Muslims are not pro-Pakistan at all bro.

brother, there are cultural differences as well.

As there are similarities as well bro. These will remain but are not a cause for war or eternal hatred.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Ladakh's Muslims are not pro-Pakistan at all bro.



As there are similarities as well bro. These will remain but are not a cause for war or eternal hatred.

All neighbors have similarities. But the differences between Pakistan and India are greater.

How do you know the Ladakhi Muslims are not pro-Pakistani?

Its all of Jammu and Kashmir which is a Muslim majority region.

 

[Shajida Khan]

How do you know the Ladakhi Muslims are not pro-Pakistani?

Honestly, this can be turned in a question that how do you know Ladakhi Muslim are pro Pakistani. This is why I am keeping them separate. They have not shown any leaning against India or towards Pakistan or heck even towards leaving India. Kashmiri Muslims have clearly demanded leaving India.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

My thought experiment

Great thread here by you. It raises some serious issues. For the sake of your "thought experiment" let us assume Kashmir is given to Pakistan lock, stock and barrel. Including even Ladakh and Jammu. Let's explore the intriguing possibilities that would follow over the next few decades.

Hostilty against India would not cease overnight. It would take time but the curve would be downward. As hate subsides and anti-Hindu bigotry reduces it would begin to have effects on the internal dynamics of Pakistan. Radclife line would begin to dissolve. As it is Indian culture in all it's guises dominates Pakistan. Calling it "Urdu, Desi" hardly covers the fact that it is "Indian". With loose Radcilffe Line the wall that has been erected between Pak/India would dissolve. Something akin to trhe fall of the Berlin Wall in Germany - of course not as dramatic but nevertheless same thing would take place only this would be in "slow motion" that might take few decades to reach it's natural conclusion which would Pakistan would fall back into some sort of "common travel area" with India. The border would be "soft" like say between Rajasthan and Haryana.

I am thinking aloud my thoughts - something I do not normally do but because you have been "brave" to open this thread that will bring you flak from your fellow Indians I feel I ought to forthright as well.

The fact is Pakistan can best be summed as a "refugee camp for Indian Muslims". This is what we have after 70 years. Just a huge glorified refugee camp that sustains itself by looking at the Hindu's as the enemy that made them "refugees". Kashmir has only kept this thinking alive despite 70 years.

Pull Kashmir out of the equation. Relax the borders. Allow free movement of people. There goes your darned "refugee camp syndrome".

 

[shootingstar]

So that means, it is not decided/clear that Ladhaki joining China is indeed in their favour.

Now moving on, how is laddakhi with Laddakh leaving India is in India's favour, Again?

As I have said earlier, I would be okay if the eastern parts of Ladakh chooses to remain with India instead of joining China. But they have to make that choice and once that choice is made, they would be treated as any other state as in India.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

We are the children of the Indus River Valley Civilization.

No doubt about that. Pakistan as fact has more tangible identity then 90% of countries registered at the UN. Indeed Pakistan has stronger geographic, historical basis then India. And I think you should know I am the biggest proponent of this then most members at PDF. Please do look at the Pakistan History section.

Hoewever the reality is non of that matters. The Pakistan state and most of the population have been articulated on the "refugee camp syndrom". For instance most look at Pakistan and think "thanks allah we can eat meat" or "thanks god we have our own homeland". All this exposes the "refugee camp syndrome". In other words Pakistan as what exists in most peoples mind is not a stand alone state or entity. But just a shadow of India. It is like darkness exists as result of absence of light. Or cold exists as absence of heat. In the same way Pakistan is merely a riposte to India. It has no intrinsic existence of it's own. This is the Pakistan, the Pakistan of "refugee camp syndrome" that exists in most peoples minds and not the Pakistan of Indus Valley which only exists in minority of Pakistanis.

As I said Pakistan had more foundation then India or most countries in 1947 to build a strong edifice of identity deeply rooted in our soil. But this was not done. Instead a vast refugee camp for Muslims was built as a anti-thesis to India. It's like a estranged wife who leaves her husband and then sulks away in a refuge. The refuge is not a real home but just a place away from her husband. If and when she makes up with her husband the refuge dissolves as she moves back to her husband.

This is the Pakistan they built since 1947 which has wafer thin identity. That I am afraid is the reality. I hate saying this as the Indus Basin as a living entity through out time is close to my heart.

The Pakistani identity as formed since 1947 is merely "refugee camp" and if Kashmir problem was sorted out there would be real possibility of Pakistan dissolving away as there would no antithesis left to bind Pakistan together.

 

[shootingstar]

Well, you cann't make any state properous only on alms. You have to create situation so that they start producing some value on their own. Thats why I say, integrating Kashmir by removing 370 is the way forward to make Kashmir prosperous. But that this is turning into a different discussion. Lets keep discussion only on the topic.

My point is that each state need to demonstrate why they deserve and should be retained as part of union of India. Any state having a per capita GDP less than the national per capita GDP (Incidentally, this starts with J&K at rank 20) needs to substantiate their claim to be part of the country and work towards a plan to address the concerns. There should no longer be any free lunches and dead weights in the system.

Fortunately, we have Pakistan and Bangladesh willing to accept areas of Kashmir, Bengal & Assam and India should take this god send opportunity to let these areas merge with them.

 

[jetray]

No doubt about that. Pakistan as fact has more tangible identity then 90% of countries registered at the UN. Indeed Pakistan has stronger geographic, historical basis then India. And I think you should know I am the biggest proponent of this then most members at PDF. Please do look at the Pakistan History section.

Hoewever the reality is non of that matters. The Pakistan state and most of the population have been articulated on the "refugee camp syndrom". For instance most look at Pakistan and think "thanks allah we can eat meat" or "thanks god we have our own homeland". All this exposes the "refugee camp syndrome". In other words Pakistan as what exists in most peoples mind is not a stand alone state or entity. But just a shadow of India. It is like darkness exists as result of absence of light. Or cold exists as absence of heat. In the same way Pakistan is merely a riposte to India. It has no intrinsic existence of it's own. This is the Pakistan, the Pakistan of "refugee camp syndrome" that exists in most peoples minds and not the Pakistan of Indus Valley which only exists in minority of Pakistanis.

As I said Pakistan had more foundation then India or most countries in 1947 to build a strong edifice of identity deeply rooted in our soil. But this was not done. Instead a vast refugee camp for Muslims was built as a anti-thesis to India. It's like a estranged wife who leaves her husband and then sulks away in a refuge. The refuge is not a real home but just a place away from her husband. If and when she makes up with her husband the refuge dissolves as she moves back to her husband.

This is the Pakistan they built since 1947 which has wafer thin identity. That I am afraid is the reality. I hate saying this as the Indus Basin as a living entity through out time is close to my heart.

The Pakistani identity as formed since 1947 is merely "refugee camp" and if Kashmir problem was sorted out there would be real possibility of Pakistan dissolving away as there would no antithesis left to bind Pakistan together.

There is some truth in what you say, but that would be unpalatable for most of the ppl.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Give me 3mins I'll cook up a video showing how Saudis are being opressed by slave workers . This entire argument is ridiculous,if indian Muslims were opresded by the 80% Hindus , Bollywood wouldn't filled with Muslims , India wouldn't have given autoimmunity to Muslims religious body and sure as hell wouldn't have been 3 Muslim presidents

All I am reading here is your insecurity. Anyway , 70 years have passed yet indian Muslims are richer than Pakistani Hindus , who are so opressed that they couldn't even legally get married in till 2016.



Jinnah was atheist & was buddy buddy with hindu nationalists till British offered him a country, hell you can read n number of books written by Muslim authors of that time documenting his pork & alcohol diet ,It was after the partition he "converted" as a sunni to rule a Islamic country .

Bottom line partition happened because of greed of power Hungry politicians, Religion was just a tool

lol what a lie. Jinnah was not an atheist. Is that the kind of crap Indian schools teach you and Shashi Tharoor teaches you guys.

Jinnah was a Muslim, but whether he was a strict Muslims that is something else.

No doubt about that. Pakistan as fact has more tangible identity then 90% of countries registered at the UN. Indeed Pakistan has stronger geographic, historical basis then India. And I think you should know I am the biggest proponent of this then most members at PDF. Please do look at the Pakistan History section.

Hoewever the reality is non of that matters. The Pakistan state and most of the population have been articulated on the "refugee camp syndrom". For instance most look at Pakistan and think "thanks allah we can eat meat" or "thanks god we have our own homeland". All this exposes the "refugee camp syndrome". In other words Pakistan as what exists in most peoples mind is not a stand alone state or entity. But just a shadow of India. It is like darkness exists as result of absence of light. Or cold exists as absence of heat. In the same way Pakistan is merely a riposte to India. It has no intrinsic existence of it's own. This is the Pakistan, the Pakistan of "refugee camp syndrome" that exists in most peoples minds and not the Pakistan of Indus Valley which only exists in minority of Pakistanis.

As I said Pakistan had more foundation then India or most countries in 1947 to build a strong edifice of identity deeply rooted in our soil. But this was not done. Instead a vast refugee camp for Muslims was built as a anti-thesis to India. It's like a estranged wife who leaves her husband and then sulks away in a refuge. The refuge is not a real home but just a place away from her husband. If and when she makes up with her husband the refuge dissolves as she moves back to her husband.

This is the Pakistan they built since 1947 which has wafer thin identity. That I am afraid is the reality. I hate saying this as the Indus Basin as a living entity through out time is close to my heart.

The Pakistani identity as formed since 1947 is merely "refugee camp" and if Kashmir problem was sorted out there would be real possibility of Pakistan dissolving away as there would no antithesis left to bind Pakistan together.

Dude you missed the point. Pakistan is no longer a place for Indian Muslims to take refuge.

Thats was the 1950s and 1960s.

Now Muslims in India must call India their country.

We have nothing to do with Indians.

We do have an independent identity.

We are Punjabis, Pathans, Sindhis, Baloch, and Kashmiris.

We are different ethnicities united under one religion and willing to cooperate in a federation.

 

[Hammad Arshad Qureshi]

And the earth is flat.


Ya , India invented time machine to send covert Muslim authors to say he ate pork & drank alcohol . Its India who magically photoshopped jinnha getting himself drunk via champagne .




Point to me when did I say otherwise, its like you are intentionally making your own arguments because you can't counter any of mine

Bottom line indian minorities are living better lives than Pakistani minorities

This shows how much knowledge you have of Islam and muslims in particular. Do you think drinking wine and eating pork would make us atheist? Yes it is sin to perform above actions but it will not remove us from our faith. It would be as if all Hindu's who eat meat are automatically removed from Hindu faith

 

[Salik]

In a way, you are true...different part of India has different reason to not to allign with Pakistan...But it is also true, that we do not question why Pakistan is created...Again, i am not talking about politicians...Rather, most of the current generation will feel happy that it is good Pakistan got created as it is technically impossible to live with set of people who are in different thought process than us...So at least we should be both assured, no one would like to question about why some nation got created.

Challenge is about past history of Hindus where they are always invaded by Muslim rulers who are not from our land...That created a sense of insecurity and sense of anatagonism in Hindu psche that Muslims never like to be with Hindus based on equality...The fear that some day, Muslims will again force their culture on Hindus is creating ripples in mind of Hindus...

Gandhiji's call to make India for all was one of the biggest challenge to be accepted in modern day today...It is a very good concept, but it is a challenge to implement it with limited resource. Rather, it would have been ideal and may be both of us can be in a good relation to make a Muslims Pakistan and Hindus or Non Muslim India as 2 nations...If that was the call, then there is no need for India to even hold on to Kashmir....

People says, move on leave the history....Most of the hindus are ready to leave the history...But does the Muslims in general ready to leave the past??? If Muslims can protest about issues that are 500 years old...then that creates ripples in the mind of Hindus like me, why i should only forget my history????

So in a nutshell, Kashmir is just the reason for both of us to be in conflict with each other...If there is no Kashmir today, Pakistan will find something else...So what is the point in allowing Pakistan supporters to have a good like by allowing independence...If we are suffering with conflict for 70 year, we will also sure, anti Indian elements waste their generations in conflict in Kashmir valley...

As if Muslim invaders used to come from Pakistan. Pakistan is modern democracy. It didn't even send it's forces to Yemen.

Those who invaded India, looted and left were bad. But those who came here and settled, learnt lots of things from local Hindus and served the country in return like Mughals. They lived and died here. How and when were they bad? When we say Mughals which country comes into mind? Only India. That is their identity.

Keeping Kashmir bleeding isn't really a good idea. It isn't securing the position but making it vulnerable. If there's bloodshed in the region any third power will rise using the name of Kashmir or any other issue. Our focus should be on solving the issues. Which hasn't been. We have been playing regional or global politics but not the resolution of matters. Mughals find it right time to rise again and end this touch and go situation in the region.

 

[Rusty]

Give me 3mins I'll cook up a video showing how Saudis are being opressed by slave workers . This entire argument is ridiculous,if indian Muslims were opresded by the 80% Hindus , Bollywood wouldn't filled with Muslims , India wouldn't have given autoimmunity to Muslims religious body and sure as hell wouldn't have been 3 Muslim presidents

All I am reading here is your insecurity. Anyway , 70 years have passed yet indian Muslims are richer than Pakistani Hindus , who are so opressed that they couldn't even legally get married in till 2016.



Jinnah was atheist & was buddy buddy with hindu nationalists till British offered him a country, hell you can read n number of books written by Muslim authors of that time documenting his pork & alcohol diet ,It was after the partition he "converted" as a sunni to rule a Islamic country .

Bottom line partition happened because of greed of power Hungry politicians, Religion was just a tool

So much butt hurt.

The point was that in India, Muslims are persecuted for being Muslims.
There are countless videos on this, including one from Mumbai where high class Muslims admit that they can't find apartments to rent because Hindus won't rent to them.

It is undeniable that Muslims are treated worse in India than Hindus so Pakistan was needed to safeguard our rights.