Besides Kashmir, What else are the reason of animosity between India and Pakistan?

[hussain0216]

Lol. Its not that simple. Do people from Ladakh know Chinese? Do they look like Hans? Nope!
Just because they have money does not mean Ladakhi ppl will get it. East Chinese is essentially Han-China. Heck even people from outside beijing have hard time settling in Beijing.

BTW, if it were so ease to earn a lot and live a great life, people from whole of India would have been flocking to East China. At best you see some Indians in Hong Kong.


Huh? India is the third largest Muslim population. Muslims are very very well represented in Indian politics all the way to the very top of the national hierarchy. BTW, within Pakistan on a per 100,000 basis, more Muslims are killing other Muslims than in India Hindu killing Muslims. From all I have seen, Muslims are having more problem living together than Muslims living with Hindus! Are Muslims at peace with each other? Nope! Iran is not at peace with Saudis or Arabs. Salafis from Saudi think rest of muslims are below them. They are amassing weapons trained at each other! Heck I am safer in Canada or USA way way more than I would have been in say Pakistan or Afghanistan. Speaks a lot about Muslims ability to live together peacefully in subcontinent!

What ever problem Muslims face, having separate Muslim nation(s) surely has not proved to be a solution to it.

We have a 97% muslim nation obviously if one person murders another reasonit would be a Muslim killing a muslim

Independence makes you the master of your own destiny we are in control of implementation of our own faith our own culture and beleifs and no one can say otherwise

Until the 1990s Pakistan was a more successful state then india, even today Pakistan beats india on many indicators even after the war on terror and as indias population hits the wrong side of 1.4 billion indian problems are just beginning

you are blind to the reality that you are a maligned minority in a increasingly hindutva state, you really dont have much space, scope or hope in the future and more and more indian muslim influence and voice is in free fall with your only expectation to parrot the increasing hindutva narrative

Kashmiris wanted to be free of this right from the beginning and were denied

And? Why do you think that is a favourable option for India?

Every hindu in India wants this but whilst they want indian muslims out they dont want to lose any more land

 

[Mugwop]

In a way, you are true...different part of India has different reason to not to allign with Pakistan...But it is also true, that we do not question why Pakistan is created...Again, i am not talking about politicians...Rather, most of the current generation will feel happy that it is good Pakistan got created as it is technically impossible to live with set of people who are in different thought process than us...So at least we should be both assured, no one would like to question about why some nation got created.

Challenge is about past history of Hindus where they are always invaded by Muslim rulers who are not from our land...That created a sense of insecurity and sense of anatagonism in Hindu psche that Muslims never like to be with Hindus based on equality...The fear that some day, Muslims will again force their culture on Hindus is creating ripples in mind of Hindus...

Gandhiji's call to make India for all was one of the biggest challenge to be accepted in modern day today...It is a very good concept, but it is a challenge to implement it with limited resource. Rather, it would have been ideal and may be both of us can be in a good relation to make a Muslims Pakistan and Hindus or Non Muslim India as 2 nations...If that was the call, then there is no need for India to even hold on to Kashmir....

People says, move on leave the history....Most of the hindus are ready to leave the history...But does the Muslims in general ready to leave the past??? If Muslims can protest about issues that are 500 years old...then that creates ripples in the mind of Hindus like me, why i should only forget my history????

So in a nutshell, Kashmir is just the reason for both of us to be in conflict with each other...If there is no Kashmir today, Pakistan will find something else...So what is the point in allowing Pakistan supporters to have a good like by allowing independence...If we are suffering with conflict for 70 year, we will also sure, anti Indian elements waste their generations in conflict in Kashmir valley...

Most hindus are ready to leave the history?? Are you sure you are who you say you are?

Kashmir is barely the reason for such animosity it's the racist and hateful mentality that most indians have

 

[Ocelot]

Hatred between India and Pakistan is indeed a multifaceted one. Frankly I see as an ethno-racial conflict than a religious one. Pakistanis should stop seeing it from Kashmir angle.

Most people would have state the apparent reasons, but I'd go to the point saying that Indian animosity for Pak has rather increased after seeing Pakistani women; Indians have totally gone bonkers in last 3-4 years and this has increased their obsession with Pak many folds. I've even seen Indians happily boasting about how some of their relatives in Rashtrya Rifles have raped Kashmiri women.

I think Indians feel inferior and insecure in themselves on individual level, so there's a strong desire to overcome their shortcomings in the shape of a potent and dominant India. Indian psyche is 'so what if the world thinks we are ugly and no one like our appearance and culture, we can buy our way out of it'. Thus they make themselves feel better if they find Pakistanis asking India for medical visas, or that they can get Pakistani actress work in India. There's animosity between Afghanistan and Pak too, but you'd hardly find any Pakistani gloating that 30% of KPK hospitals are filled with Afghans and that more than 30,000 Afghans get free surgery for cataracts alone.

The only way I can see relations between India and Pak improve if both countries end any diplomatic relations for at least 100 years and completely blackout each other, not showing any positive or even negative news from the other side. Also completely banning any internet access to others website would be a good start.

 

[Shajida Khan]

We have a 97% muslim nation obviously if one person murders another reasonit would be a Muslim killing a muslim

This will become a very different argument but I guess it cann't be helped. Here are my counter to this. If 97% are Muslims then why are they twice more likely to kill each other compared to Indians? Clearly having same religion does not prevents them from killing each other. Then why a Muslim country like Pakistan is better for even Muslims of say Laddakh? Or some how being killed by Hindu is worse than being killed by a Muslim? I won't care about the religion of my murderer for I would be dead!

Independence makes you the master of your own destiny we are in control of implementation of our own faith our own culture and beleifs and no one can say otherwise

Have you folks been able to be master of your own destiny? Aren't you having atleast as bad as leaders as India. I will say you had worse leaders who made your country vulnerable enough to be broken. Which destiny do you control then?

A number of my family members were able to control their destiny way better because they had access to much better education facilities compared to Pakistan. Honestly you need a good education and employment opportunities to control your destiny. Faith, culture etc are a very distant things affecting your destiny. For the record I can practice my faith very freely in India.

Until the 1990s Pakistan was a more successful state then india, even today Pakistan beats india on many indicators even after the war on terror and as indias population hits the wrong side of 1.4 billion indian problems are just beginning

Until 1990 India was following a flawed model of economy. Well, we have changed that for good. BTW, all the indicators of Pakistan till this year were highly skewed because of an incorrect estimation of population. You were missing almost 20 million people in counting. All your indicators will be off by a decent margin.

As far as population goes, Pakistan is growing at a much faster rate. Pakistan has much lesser dwellable area -- mostly around Indus river and not to mention water. Indian population growth rate is going down and quite fastly and never increasing -- unlike Pakistan which saw a baby boom in 2013. Indian economy is growing faster than Pakistan since 1993 leaving one year of 2000. Thats 23 years. Clearly Pakistan has bigger problems to face and growing ones too.

you are blind to the reality that you are a maligned minority in a increasingly hindutva state, you really dont have much space, scope or hope in the future and more and more indian muslim influence and voice is in free fall with your only expectation to parrot the increasing hindutva narrative

And yet I am less likely to be killed in India. I have better education opportunities. Better job opportunities. I will rather be that maligned minority in a progressing nation than a majority in a nation which is anti to its own citizens.

Kashmiris wanted to be free of this right from the beginning and were denied

Indeed! Their first choice is independent nation.

Most people would have state the apparent reasons, but I'd go to the point saying that Indian animosity for Pak has rather increased after seeing Pakistani women; Indians have totally gone bonkers in last 3-4 years and this has increased their obsession with Pak many folds. I've even seen Indians happily boasting about how some of their relatives in Rashtrya Rifles have raped Kashmiri women.

Source or proof?

I think Indians feel inferior and insecure in themselves on individual level, so there's a strong desire to overcome their shortcomings in the shape of a potent and dominant India. Indian psyche is 'so what if the world thinks we are ugly and no one like our appearance and culture, we can buy our way out of it'. Thus they make themselves feel better if they find Pakistanis asking India for medical visas, or that they can get Pakistani actress work in India. There's animosity between Afghanistan and Pak too, but you'd hardly find any Pakistani gloating that 30% of KPK hospitals are filled with Afghans and that more than 30,000 Afghans get free surgery for cataracts alone.

For Indians, world outside India means west. We don't live elsewhere and we dont care about elsewhere. And as far as west goes, being coloured is quite fashionable right now. I doubt Indians feel that world does not like their appearances. We do bother how world --read west-- percieves us but we are not exactly worried about it beyond following fashion trends etc. BTW most of the Indians outside India live in liberal parts of the world where calling someone ugly is more or less a cardinal sin.

Every hindu in India wants this but whilst they want indian muslims out they dont want to lose any more land

Thats a too big of a statement. I will rather say most Hindus in India are bothered about their livelyhood. Muslims are least of their worries. For that matter a number of Hindus even align their political intersts with Muslims! Ever heard of Muslim-Yadav equation in UP politics?

 

[hussain0216]

This will become a very different argument but I guess it cann't be helped. Here are my counter to this. If 97% are Muslims then why are they twice more likely to kill each other compared to Indians? Clearly having same religion does not prevents them from killing each other. Then why a Muslim country like Pakistan is better for even Muslims of say Laddakh? Or some how being killed by Hindu is worse than being killed by a Muslim? I won't care about the religion of my murderer for I would be dead!

Who says they are twice as likely to kill each other?

What reliable, comprehensive study, statistics are available to determine that, i would suggest murder rates across South Asia are similar

If your so concerned with murder then why are not concerned about rape, india has terrible rape statistics are you your happier being raped?

Have you folks been able to be master of your own destiny? Aren't you having atleast as bad as leaders as India. I will say you had worse leaders who made your country vulnerable enough to be broken. Which destiny do you control then?

A number of my family members were able to control their destiny way better because they had access to much better education facilities compared to Pakistan. Honestly you need a good education and employment opportunities to control your destiny. Faith, culture etc are a very distant things affecting your destiny. For the record I can practice my faith very freely in India.

Indian muslims are happy being dogs on a leash,, thats fine with me but that's ALL you are.

You are a minority at the mercy of the whims of a majority

India is turning hindutva, Your OWN retiring muslim president spoke of the unease of the indian muslim community
Rather then being supported or reassured he was attacked and maligned

https://m.timesofindia.com/articleshow_comments/59995572.cms
Sense of unease among Muslims: Hamid Ansari in his last interview as vice-president

I want you to read the above article, THEN i want you to head to the comments section and read the comments.

Do the same to ANY mainstream indian newspaper and you will find the same virulent anti muslim commentary from the average hindu

Now we in Pakistan have a free muslim state with 150 nuclear warheads and a vast military complex to defend us

Indian muslims have nothing, your PM became popular because he was connected to the massacre of muslims, (innocent or not the perceived anti muslim stance won him the backing of many reborn hindutva hindus)

You have CMs like Yogi which who declared that the bodies of dead muslim women should be raped, YET he STILL won the election

You are a maligned minority at the mercy of a majority who see's you as the manifestation of 1000 years of muslim rule in India.


Pakistan is ours,
We have our own military
Our own weapons
We determine our culture, leaders,
NO ONE tells us what we can eat if our faith does not ban it

If you dont understand the freedom of being the master of your own home regardless of the problems and issues faced then you deserve the humiliation, murder and rape that is about to fall upon you

As far as population goes, Pakistan is growing at a much faster rate. Pakistan has much lesser dwellable area -- mostly around Indus river and not to mention water. Indian population growth rate is going down and quite fastly and never increasing -- unlike Pakistan which saw a baby boom in 2013. Indian economy is growing faster than Pakistan since 1993 leaving one year of 2000. Thats 23 years. Clearly Pakistan has bigger problems to face and growing ones too.

Your mistaken

Pakistan is 3 and a half times smaller than india BUT your population is 7 times larger

Your current 1.35 billion is rising quickly and will hit 1.5 billion soon enough, you are NOT CREATING ENOUGH JOBS
NOR ENOUGH ECONOMIC GROWTH OR ACTIVITY

You ARE creating however immense social division and insurmountable societal problems amongst your population as hindutva rises


Pakistan has always been more manageable but corrupt politicians have hamstrung us

Pakistan as it grows will emerge much better than India (you heard it from me) and is busy creating strong bonds with our allies.
As I said we are out own strong, free country and we dont have to listen to any of the monkey shit coming from hindus

Indeed! Their first choice is independent nation.

Pakistan will win hands down,, independence will be a distance second and only beaten dogs would want to live under a hindu india

Thats a too big of a statement. I will rather say most Hindus in India are bothered about their livelyhood. Muslims are least of their worries. For that matter a number of Hindus even align their political intersts with Muslims! Ever heard of Muslim-Yadav equation in UP politics?

Your blind or stupid im not sure which

You are a hated minority, the hindus condemn you, deride you and attack you and your community
And its only getting worse

In pakistan we hate them back and are armed yo the roof, if a hindu even looks at us funny we will nail him to a tree but you are screwed

 

[.]

Indians will never solve kashmir since they prefer to be running like confused chickens instead .
On both sides if ethnic minorities come to power ,It might be possible to solve Kashmir issue.
E.g people of northern area's want this problem solved once and for all ,We don't hate India like for say the Pakistani Punjabis or Indian Punjabis.

 

[MultaniGuy]

And the earth is flat.


Ya , India invented time machine to send covert Muslim authors to say he ate pork & drank alcohol . Its India who magically photoshopped jinnha getting himself drunk via champagne .




Point to me when did I say otherwise, its like you are intentionally making your own arguments because you can't counter any of mine

Bottom line indian minorities are living better lives than Pakistani minorities

Jinnah never ate pork or drank alcohol. Show me the textual proof.

You are an idiot.

And the earth is flat.


Ya , India invented time machine to send covert Muslim authors to say he ate pork & drank alcohol . Its India who magically photoshopped jinnha getting himself drunk via champagne .




Point to me when did I say otherwise, its like you are intentionally making your own arguments because you can't counter any of mine

Bottom line indian minorities are living better lives than Pakistani minorities

There is no photo of Jinnah drinking alcohol.

You have been reported for trolling.

Think what you want there are plenty of foreign authors parroting the same .

• Asian nationalism(Michael Leifer ) :The paradox is that Jinnah was an atheist and a modernist in the same mould
  

• Decline and fall of British empire (piers brendon):rejoiced with them. Nehru was furious. Just as jinna had regarded himself as a socialist atheist
  
• Leaving Islam: Apostates Speak Out(Ibn Warraq) :There is further irony in that the man revered in present-day Pakistan as the Great Leader and founder of the nation, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, was an atheist. Religion never played an important role in Jinnah's private life7 and, according to one historian, had Jinnah been alive today "he would have to be flogged publicly for his personal habits. Mr Jinnah not only chained-smoked Craven-A cigarettes but also liked his whisky and was not averse to pork."
  
  
  
• Islam, Race, and Pluralism in the Pakistani Diaspora(Craig considean) :and as an atheist, he positioned himself outside of the 'Islamic state'
  

Hindus eat meat all the time , in fact it's a part of Hinduism . A goat/sheep or chicken is sacrificed when a child is born to get rid of bad omens & then everyone feast on the meat. Traditionally you are expected to feed the whole neighbourhood, so usually involves multiple goats

The rule is , you shouldn't eat meat & pray to certain gods without taking a bath and shouldn't cook meat in the house during festivals , as all animals are gods creations . Because what all dharmic religions (jain/hindu/Buddhism) believe is only good karma & faith can grant you moksha , becoming enlightened being free from reincarnation & merge with a higher realm .

Those are not reputed scholars like Stanley Wolpert or Akbar S Ahmed.

Jinnah may have smoked, but he never drank alcohol.

lol you chose Ibn Warraq. That person has an anti-Islam streak.

You idiot.

 

[MultaniGuy]

I gave my proof , all your haave is a 10pisa rants & insults



There is no pic of him taking a bath too , does that mean he stinks ? Show me any pic of him eating in the first place



Go complain to the hundreds of books & articles that say he is .



Right a Pakistani in middle of nowhere will now judge European authors on their credibility, Michael Leifer is one of the leading scholars in UK , with over a dozen published books.




Bruce Riedel

"......Jinnah seemed an odd candidate for the role he played in the creation of the world's first state intended for Muslims. He was not a practicing Muslim, he drank alcohol, ...."

Where is their proof for drinking alcohol? Whenever I go to Pakistan, people make dua for Jinnah.

You know nothing.

I rely on Stanley Wolpert and Akbar S Ahmed. Not your bullshit sources you idiot.

Lets say for the sake of argument Jinnah drank alcohol, that does not make him a non-muslim but a sinner, idiot.

Clearly you do not know Islam.

Bruce Riedel is not a primary source but a distant secondary source who does not know the Quaid-e-Azam personally.

I would rather trust Stanley Wolpert more than Bruce Riedel, you baboon.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Alright, say *for the sake of argument* India free Kashmir (only valley not Jammu or Laddakh) peacefully without any war and let them decide to join Pakistan or stay independent -- joining India is not an option-- what will be the direction taken by Pakistani government?

Rather what will be the issues for India and Pakistan to still be enemies?

Will they remain as much of an enemy as they are right now?

What do you think India Pakistan dynamics will look like say 10 years from that even. Assuming India makes no claims or any intervention with Kashmiris.

The conflict between indians and Pakistan is racial as well as religious. It's the reason why both Pakistan and ultimately bangladesh were created. It's also why indian so called "Muslims" are so nationalistic and anti-Pakistani.

 

[Shajida Khan]

The conflict between indians and Pakistan is racial as well as religious. It's the reason why both Pakistan and ultimately bangladesh were created. It's also why indian son called "Muslims" are so nationalistic and anti-Pakistani.

Are you 'Muslim enough' to question another Muslim's faith?

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Are you 'Muslim enough' to question another Muslim's faith?

I know that as a Muslim you can ONLY worship Allah swt. You ARE NOT allowed to also worship Hindu idols/deities aswell. That camcels your right of being a Muslim.

Hatred between India and Pakistan is indeed a multifaceted one. Frankly I see as an ethno-racial conflict than a religious one. Pakistanis should stop seeing it from Kashmir angle.

Most people would have state the apparent reasons, but I'd go to the point saying that Indian animosity for Pak has rather increased after seeing Pakistani women; Indians have totally gone bonkers in last 3-4 years and this has increased their obsession with Pak many folds. I've even seen Indians happily boasting about how some of their relatives in Rashtrya Rifles have raped Kashmiri women.

I think Indians feel inferior and insecure in themselves on individual level, so there's a strong desire to overcome their shortcomings in the shape of a potent and dominant India. Indian psyche is 'so what if the world thinks we are ugly and no one like our appearance and culture, we can buy our way out of it'. Thus they make themselves feel better if they find Pakistanis asking India for medical visas, or that they can get Pakistani actress work in India. There's animosity between Afghanistan and Pak too, but you'd hardly find any Pakistani gloating that 30% of KPK hospitals are filled with Afghans and that more than 30,000 Afghans get free surgery for cataracts alone.

The only way I can see relations between India and Pak improve if both countries end any diplomatic relations for at least 100 years and completely blackout each other, not showing any positive or even negative news from the other side. Also completely banning any internet access to others website would be a good start.

This!!!!!!!!!!................the hatred between Pakistanis and indians is more Racial than anything else. I have always noticed this myself. Even though Afghanistan and Pakistan have problems with eachother we still feel for one anothet quite a bit. That's why there are probably around 10 million Afghans in Pakistan. Unlike with indians or bengalis, Pakistanis are by large the same race as Afghans and Southern Iranians which is why we tend to muddle through and get along with eachother much more.

 

[Shajida Khan]

I know that as a Muslim you can ONLY worship Allah swt. You ARE NOT allowed to also worship Hindu idols/deities aswell. That camcels your right of being a Muslim.

You have any proof that all or most of the Muslims in India worship idols? If not, you may do well to read Al-Hujurat:12.

 

[Shajida Khan]

This!!!!!!!!!!................the hatred between Pakistanis and indians is more Racial than anything else. I have always noticed this myself. Even though Afghanistan and Pakistan have problems with eachother we still feel for one anothet quite a bit. That's why there are probably around 10 million Afghans in Pakistan. Unlike with indians or bengalis, Pakistanis are by large the same race as Afghans and Southern Iranians which is why we tend to muddle through and get along with eachother much more.

I have done this a lot on this very forum. Take your time to google this "pakistan railway station crowd" and select top 3 or 5 pics. Preferably those which show closeup or the people or faces of the people are clearly visible. Then do the same for india railway station crowd. Then tell me if you folks are looking so 'racially' different. Also compare then with someone who looks really different. Say Chinese. Or say Scandinavian. Essentially Indian and specifically North and north western Indians and Pakistani are so similar that entire argument of racial difference is like two teenagers fighting on 'vermillion red' and 'scarlet red' for their dress. They are somewhat different perhaph but does not discount the fact that they both are bright red.

Turth is, Pakistani Punjab -- which accounts for more than half of your population -- shares a lot of 'race' with Indian Punjab and Delhi and Haryana to an extent. As far as India goes, there is no common true blue Indian race. We are a mixed bunch.

 

[MultaniGuy]

I have done this a lot on this very forum. Take your time to google this "pakistan railway station crowd" and select top 3 or 5 pics. Preferably those which show closeup or the people or faces of the people are clearly visible. Then do the same for india railway station crowd. Then tell me if you folks are looking so 'racially' different. Also compare then with someone who looks really different. Say Chinese. Or say Scandinavian.

Turth is, Pakistani Punjab -- which accounts for more than half of your population -- shares a lot of 'race' with Indian Punjab and Delhi and Haryana to an extent. As far as India goes, there is no common true blue Indian race. We are a mixed bunch.

Wrong, Absolutely wrong.

Pakistan and India have different ethnicities.

We have nothing in common.

We are completely different in genetics.

nice try though.

 

[Shajida Khan]

We are completely different in genetics.

Prove me that Punjabi from Pakistan are really different genetically as compared to Punjabi from India or a Delhite?

We have nothing in common.

Yeah! Why the heck then someone speaking Hindi can still make sense of Urdu quite a bit? Why the heck then a lot of dresses are so common between two countries? Why the heck then our foods and spices have so much commonality? Why the heck rest of the world often gets confused one for another. Hell even we all get confused many a time and have to ask for ethnic origin of the guy to acertain if they are from Pakistan or India.