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Beneath the radar, a Russia-Pakistan entente takes shape

Pakistan must try and strengthen there relations with Russian. it is high time to do so.
with the fast growing relation between India and Russia and Pakistan US relation getting Sore, its the right time to develop good economic and defense relations with Russia.

many Indian will come here and say that despite growing relations between India and US, india is still involved with Russia in some multi billion dollar deals including Su-30 MKI, air craft carries and nuclear submarines. despite this fact, the newly discovered friendship between India and US is not something that will go unnoticed in Moscow.


it is not that Pakistan can over night become a determining factor in Russia relation with India but now, the Indian influence in Pak Russia relations can be dealt with with comparative ease. although, India, with all the lucrative arms import deals is a big market for any exporter but one thing that is often neglected in that China and Pakistan jointly can offer twice as big a market as the Indians. this decisive factor was seen in the deal of jet engines for JFT, that, despite all the efforts of new dehli, was supported and executed by Russia. although China is rapidly moving to self reliance in this department and Russia might lose quite some amount in exports to China but even now, there are lots of options of defense cooperation and deal open for all.

i seriously wish that our foreign office will use the current global situation wisely and bring Russia and Pakistan closer.
we may start with trade ties and economic relations strengthening with Russian investment in different projects in Pakistan, providing Russia with a friendly and attractive warm water port access for all around the year open sea trade and then we can slowly and gradually move on to defense cooperation.

as expected and mentioned, the thread of Indian jumping here and there and trying to make a point in how big the Russian are an ally of India.
no doubt, but again, the new developments wont go unnoticed in Moscow.!

Well in today geopolitics it's stupid to be end up in military bloc, it's no longer a cold war. If nation have to move ahead they need corporation all major powers. I think it will be agood move by Pakistan if they improve their relation with Russia.
Remember the old saying In politics there are no permanent enemies nor permanent friends only permanent interest.
very true and very sensible!
 
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what role do you think Pakistan can play in this arrangement? Probably, I think of one that is to provide transit routes to India so that Russia can lay pipe lines to send its gas/oil to India (another big consumer).

As long as Russia is providing hypersonic cruise missiles, nuclear subs and stealth aircraft to India, while Pakistan gets a couple of COIN rifles, I have to agree with the above assessment. Russia's interest in Pakistan is only to open up a trade conduit to India.
 
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As long as Russia is providing hypersonic cruise missiles, nuclear subs and stealth aircraft to India, while Pakistan gets a couple of COIN rifles, I have to agree with the above assessment. Russia's interest in Pakistan is only to open up a trade conduit to India.

We are living in fluid and changing times. We need to look at the dynamics of the China-Russia, India-America China-India relationship. We also cannot ignore Iran.

1. China-Russia- Both are acting more and more in concert against American interests. Neither Russia or China want a proxy like India in our neighbourhood.

2. India will have to choose. The neighbourhood or America Its correct that historically they have had ties with Russia and the deals we are seeing are to some degree remnants of the very strong past relationship.

3. China-India border issues. America wants to use India to stem rise of China.

4. Lastly Iran cannot be ignored. Not even India never mind the rest of the neighbourhood share America's animosity to Iran.

You have to see Russian-Pakistan detente and cooperation through this prism.
 
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We are living in fluid and changing times. We need to look at the dynamics of the China-Russia, India-America China-India relationship. We also cannot ignore Iran.

1. China-Russia- Both are acting more and more in concert against American interests. Neither Russia or China want a proxy like India in our neighbourhood.

2. India will have to choose. The neighbourhood or America Its correct that historically they have had ties with Russia and the deals we are seeing are to some degree remnants of the very strong past relationship.

3. China-India border issues. America wants to use India to stem rise of China.

4. Lastly Iran cannot be ignored. Not even India never mind the rest of the neighbourhood share America's animosity to Iran.

You have to see Russian-Pakistan detente and cooperation through this prism.

My take on the matter is that India is playing the US for a fool and milking all it can by playing along with the latter's China obsession. At its core, India considers Russia to be its most reliable partner, and Russia considers India to be its most steadfast customer.

I put more store in actions than in words. All Russia has given Pakistan so far is empty rhetoric and their trade initiatives with Pakistan just happen to suit India as well.
 
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My take on the matter is that India is playing the US for a fool and milking all it can by playing along with the latter's China obsession. At its core, India considers Russia to be its most reliable partner, and Russia considers India to be its most steadfast customer.

I put more store in actions than in words. All Russia has given Pakistan so far is empty rhetoric and their trade initiatives with Pakistan just happen to suit India as well.


The following comments are by a former Indian Ambassador to Russia and diplomat:

Francis Fukuyama wrote a sequel to his celebrated book The End of History and the Last Man (1992) no sooner than he realised that he was hopelessly wrong in his prediction that the global triumph of political and economic liberalism was at hand. He wrote: “What we may be witnessing is not just the end of the Cold War, or the crossing of a particular period of postwar history, but the end of history as such… That is, the end point of mankind’s ideological evolution and the universalization of Western democracy as the final form of human government.” But in no time he realised his rush to judgment and he retracted with another book.

However, unlike the celebrated American neocon thinker, Indian foreign policy thinkers who were heavily influenced by his 1992 thesis are yet to retract. The Indian discourses through the 1990s drew heavily from Fukuyama to throw overboard the scope for reinventing or reinterpreting ‘non-alignment’ in the post-Cold War setting and came to a rapid judgment that Russia belonged to the dustbin of history. Our discourses never really got updated despite Fukumaya’s own retraction.

Indeed, western commentators also fuelled the consequent sense of insecurity in Delhi through the 1990s by endorsing that India would never have a ‘Russia option’ again and Boris Yeltsin’s Russia itself was inexorably becoming an ‘ally’ of the west — and, therefore, what alternative is there for India but to take to the New American Century project? Remember the drama of the Bill Clinton administration arm-twisting Yeltsin not to give to India the cryogentic engines?

In sum, India got entrapped in a ‘unipolar predicament’. The best elucidation of this self-invited predicament has been the masterly work titled Crossing the Rubicon by Raja Mohan, which was of course widely acclaimed in the US. While releasing the book at a function in Delhi, the then National Security Advisor Brajesh Mishra even admitted that India’s main foreign policy challenge was somehow to engage the US’s “attention”.

Russia, of course, went on to prove our pundits completely wrong. Russia remerged as a global player and the evidence of it is today spread (and is poised to expand) all across global theatres — Libya, Syria, Iran, Central Asia, Afghanistan, etc.
Why I am underscoring all this is that I am strongly reminded of that sad chapter in the recent history of India’s foreign policy when I see the huge ‘psywar’ being let loose on Pakistan currently when that country too is at a crossroads with regard to its future policy directions in a highly volatile external enviornment.

In Pakistan’s case, the ‘psywar’ substitutes Russia with China. The US’s ‘Track II’ thesis is that China is hopelessly marooned in its own malaise so much so that it has no time, interest or resources to come to Pakistan’s aid, the two countries’ ‘all-weather friendship’ notwithstanding. Let me cull out two fine pieces of this ongoing ‘psywar’.

One is the lengthy article featured by America’s prestigious flag-carrier Foreign Affairs magazine in early December titled “China’s Pakistan conundrum”. Its argument is: ‘China will not simply bail out Pakistan with loans, investment, and aid, as those watching the deterioration of US-Pakistani relations seem to expect. China will pursue politics, security, and geopolitical advantage regardless of Islamabad’s preferences’. It puts forth the invidious argument that China’s real use for Pakistan is only to “box out New Delhi in Afghanistan and the broader region.”

Alongside the argument is the highly-tendentious vector that is beyond easy verification, namely, that US and China are increasingly ‘coordinating’ their policies toward Pakistan. Diplomacy is part dissimulation and we simply don’t know whether the US and China are even anywhere near beginning to ‘coordinate’ about ‘coordinating’ their regional policies in South Asia, especially with regard to Pakistan (and Afghanistan). The odds are that while the US and China may have some limited convergent interests, conceivably, their strategic interests are most certainly in sharp conflict.

A milder version of this frontal attack by US pundits on Pakistan’s existential dilemma appears in Michael Krepon’s article last week titled ‘Pakistan’s Patrons’, which, curiously, counsels Islamabad to follow India’s foreign-policy footsteps and make up with the US. Krepon literally suggests that the Pakistanis are living in a fool’s paradise.

The obvious thrust of this ‘psywar’ — strikingly similar to what India was subjected to in the 1990s — is that Pakistan has no option but to fall in line with the US regional strategies, as it has no real ‘China option’. The main difference between India and Pakistan is that the foreign policy elites in Islamabad — unlike their Indian counterparts — are not inclined to buy into the US argument with a willing suspension of disbelief. In a way, the Sino-Pakistan relationship is proving once again to be resilient. Pakistan is in no mood to get into a ‘unipolar predicament’, as the Indian elites willingly did in the 1990s.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/164217-putin-good-pakistan-our-neighbourhood.html


Perhaps these two threads should be merged with the cars thread??
 
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No mate we haven't learned our lesson. But your country has learned a lot hasn't it. That's why you have pulled hundreds of millions out of abject poverty. Sorry that was China not India.

You are wrong (along with being off topic.. But I guess being a brother of a think tank gets you that privilege).. Its India too.. Unlike Pakistan which is actually one of the few countries that is adding people in their poverty pool and is moving downwards in the UNDP's Human development Index.. I remember Pakistan moving from medium to low HDI this year.. I think its the only country in South Asia to have low Human Development Index...
 
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We are living in fluid and changing times. We need to look at the dynamics of the China-Russia, India-America China-India relationship. We also cannot ignore Iran.

Very true. With changing times and with globalization, every country will want to link with the other country.

1. China-Russia- Both are acting more and more in concert against American interests. Neither Russia or China want a proxy like India in our neighbourhood.

You have this old habit of hyphenating yourself with us. Please avoid this type have non-constructive vocabulary.

2. India will have to choose. The neighbourhood or America Its correct that historically they have had ties with Russia and the deals we are seeing are to some degree remnants of the very strong past relationship.

You were wrong in the past, you're wrong again. Our policy was never to choose anyone specifically and it still is the same. Russia is okay with it, USA is okay with it and most important of all.. WE are okay with it. As for what China wants, we're not really concerned. Every country wants something or the other and we cannot go on pandering to everyone's whims.

3. China-India border issues. America wants to use India to stem rise of China.

We have border problems with them even before US was properly present in South and East Asia. It just happens that our interests meet at a common point these days. Ironically the world's flag bearer of democracy USA and the world's largest democracy India never really got along too well.

4. Lastly Iran cannot be ignored. Not even India never mind the rest of the neighbourhood share America's animosity to Iran.

Exactly. Iran is not hostile to us so we have no reason to be against them.
 
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Putin will not visit Pakistan in future
indian lobby is very strong in russia
 
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No mate we haven't learned our lesson. But your country has learned a lot hasn't it. That's why you have pulled hundreds of millions out of abject poverty. Sorry that was China not India.

Is this an economics thread? BTW we don't flaunt and beat drums of pulling people out of poverty because of multi-party system unlike your new master who has to constantly assure his people that he's doing something good.
 
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Putin will not visit Pakistan in future
indian lobby is very strong in russia

We don't have a lobby. There is no Indian present in Russian politics unlike Jewish in US politics. Putin has to decide for his country and he has the right to do so. It just happens that we offer a more attractive partnership so he's sticking to our strategic partnership.

It is more than just buying weapons for a few billion dollars. There are a lot of things to be looked into when creating a strategic relationships. And if this partnership has been for more than 5 decades, then it definitely builds up trust. For developing that trust, the relationship has to be bilateral; aka there has to be a reciprocal approach whereby both countries keep gaining something of equal value from each other. Then there's scope of equitable partnership.
 
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Whatever Pakistanis do with Russians, at the end of the Day Russia will give more priority to India. Have you ever looked at Russia Today, they still shows of whole of Jammu and Kashmir as a part of India instead of following LOC as practiced by others or Chinese which shows whole Kashmir as a part of Pakistan. (I can provide you link also)

The thing is India is increasing relation with US but still didn't and won't indulge in such practice which will harm Russia and that's why Russian will too follow same theory when increasing Friendship with Pakistan.
 
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It's a shame we don't get the view of the majority of Indians on here as they either cant read or secondly cant afford a computer. Back to topic India can not sustain an alliance with Zionists, Iranians Russians and Americans all at the same time its simply impossible. To think so they are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Russia will not side with India Pakistan or any other country. Russia will go for its own interests which currently converge with Pakistan's interests
 
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It's a shame we don't get the view of the majority of Indians on here as they either cant read or secondly cant afford a computer. Back to topic India can not sustain an alliance with Zionists, Iranians Russians and Americans all at the same time its simply impossible. To think so they are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Russia will not side with India Pakistan or any other country. Russia will go for its own interests which currently converge with Pakistan's interests

Certainly not in Afghanistan. And about India's relation with other arch-rivals we made it possible baby.
 
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