Ben Affleck gets worked up defending Islam on Bill Maher's show

[Aepsilons]

There is no problem inherent to the doctrine and theology of Islam, certainly no more or no less than any other Abrahamic religion. It is more a matter of its followers realizing how to follow their beliefs better, in peace and harmony with the rest of humanity.

I agree with you in the sense that Islam , in regards to doctrine and theology, is as transparent as Christianity and Judaism. In fact, all three follow the general points of the Mosaic Law, as well as follows the overall message of prophetic theology. The dichotomy of: 1) interpretation authority and 2) spiritual dialogue comes to the fore.

Christianity, tho it is differentiated in many denominations, is composed of the orthodoxy of Roman Catholicism and Christian Orthodox and the Protestant Christianity. The progenitor of these is the Roman Catholic Church, which espouses itself to having not only Doctrinal Truth, but also Traditional Truth, which when combined is representative of Revealed Truth by Divine Providence. Catholic Interpretation of Holy Scripture (The Holy Bible) is thus authoritative, and to an extent, its interpretations are recognized as accurate by even Christian Orthodoxy as well as many of the Proto-Protestant denominations. Tho there may be doctrinal differences between evangelical denominations with Roman Catholicism, the general points espoused by Roman Catholic Church as in the Divinity of Christ, the Trinitarian View, the Communion of the Saints, the Salvific mission of Christ -- is all agreed upon by all Protestant denominations. So there is, in a sense, an interpretative authority in Christianity.

When we study Judaism, the same concept of an interpretive authority comes to mind. Tho there are many schools of Judaism, ranging from Ultra Orthodox, Orthodox, Reformed, the rabbinical schools are the repository of Judaic theology, and despite the doctrinal peculiarities among the schools there is an agreement that synagogues are to be administered by the rabbis, teachers and descendents of the Aaron, the priestly Levites. This is centered on the Halakhah or the Jewish Laws, and the Mitzvot , the Mosaic Law that was handed from G-d to Moshe (the Prophet Moses). The interpretive authority that rabbis claim stem back to the Halakhah and the Mitzvot.

Islam is unique because while it does have the Holy Scripture (Holy Quran), it does not have a single source that can claim interpretive authority. This is where it becomes important to have such an authoritative figure because it can help explain the right interpretation of specific verses in the Quran as well as the readings of the Hadiths. For the Shia sect they have the Ayatollahs that claim to be the authoritative force in Quranic interpretation. In Sunni Sect of Islam, there seems to be no authoritative force, to help believers in Islam interpret effectively. This is where it is important to have a Spiritual Leader , yet equal. The concept of the original Caliph comes to mind as being important. And I'm referring to the right kind of Caliph of Islam, such as the 1st Caliph, Abu Bkr.

Not all muslims are killers and rapest and terrorist and etc there are bad apples in every religion and every race these cowards that do these cowards acts not only sin but give peace loving muslims a bad name not to mention the religion ISLAM a bad name. As for Bill Maher he is a asshole I have watched his show many times and he never has anything good to say about anyone nor anything even for his follow Americans his own President nor the American people or all of its different races and religions it holds so go fig. I thank Ben Affleck for sticking up for the peace loving muslims that there are in the world and for our religion ISLAM may GOD bless him always thank you once again Ben .

You're right, may Almighty Providence bless Ben for his defense of the pure Islam.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

RESPECT TO BEN AFFLECK

 

[dexter]

Thatswhy Ben Affleck is the right choice for BATMAN in BATMAN vs SUPERMAN.
Ummah loves you

(Sorry for being off-topic but cant resist to post that im a big fan of DC comics )

 

[gambit]

Not all muslims are killers and rapest and terrorist and etc there are bad apples in every religion and every race these cowards that do these cowards acts not only sin but give peace loving muslims a bad name not to mention the religion ISLAM a bad name. As for Bill Maher he is a asshole I have watched his show many times and he never has anything good to say about anyone nor anything even for his follow Americans his own President nor the American people or all of its different races and religions it holds so go fig. I thank Ben Affleck for sticking up for the peace loving muslims that there are in the world and for our religion ISLAM may GOD bless him always thank you once again Ben .

We do not live in an intellectual and moral vacuum. Not only that, we CANNOT live in such conditions. Everything we do have a motivation and a justification, even biological urges like thirst, hunger, and procreation.

64 percent of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan support the death penalty for leaving Islam - The Washington Post

According to Pew's data, 78 percent of Afghan Muslims say they support laws condemning to death anyone who gives up Islam. In both Egypt and Pakistan, 64 percent report holding this view. This is also the majority view among Muslims in Malaysia, Jordan and the Palestinian territories.

It's also important to note that majorities of Muslims in the countries surveyed, sometimes vast majorities, said they support religious freedom. That includes, for example, more than 75 percent of Egyptians and more than 95 percent of Pakistanis. It might seem like a glaring contradiction. And it is a contradiction, but it might make a little more sense that so many people could hold seemingly mutually exclusive views -- religious freedom is good, but anyone who leaves Islam should be executed -- if one understands the particular history of apostasy in Islam.

The history of the Muslim community serves as motivation and justification for the harsh sentiment and law that says apostates should be killed as examples and deterrence. Unity and longevity of the faith for this community are just as existential issues as biological urges like thirst or hunger for the body.

So if you criticize people like Maher for their simplistic views of Muslims in particular and religionists in general, then it is equally simplistic for you so counter by saying 'not all...' and so on and so on. Yes, not all Muslims are terrorists, but Al-Qaeda and IS did not came from Christianity or Buddhism. The doctrines of Christianity and Buddism, apparently, does not provide sufficient moral motivation and justification for the oppression of religious minorities or women for Islamic religionists.

Strictly speaking, a provocation is not a negative thing. A joke is a provocation to laughter. An insult is a provocation to anger. So it should be understood that people like Maher are RESPONSES to provocations, whether the provocations came from Christianity or Islam or Rastafarianism or Republicans or George W. Bush.

 

[TOPGUN]

We do not live in an intellectual and moral vacuum. Not only that, we CANNOT live in such conditions. Everything we do have a motivation and a justification, even biological urges like thirst, hunger, and procreation.

64 percent of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan support the death penalty for leaving Islam - The Washington Post

The history of the Muslim community serves as motivation and justification for the harsh sentiment and law that says apostates should be killed as examples and deterrence. Unity and longevity of the faith for this community are just as existential issues as biological urges like thirst or hunger for the body.

So if you criticize people like Maher for their simplistic views of Muslims in particular and religionists in general, then it is equally simplistic for you so counter by saying 'not all...' and so on and so on. Yes, not all Muslims are terrorists, but Al-Qaeda and IS did not came from Christianity or Buddhism. The doctrines of Christianity and Buddism, apparently, does not provide sufficient moral motivation and justification for the oppression of religious minorities or women for Islamic religionists.

Strictly speaking, a provocation is not a negative thing. A joke is a provocation to laughter. An insult is a provocation to anger. So it should be understood that people like Maher are RESPONSES to provocations, whether the provocations came from Christianity or Islam or Rastafarianism or Republicans or George W. Bush.

You still didn't get the point I was making simply ..... you can believe what you like. I am proud Pakistani American and a Muslim my parents didn't teach me to kill or to hate and etc is the point I was making out of the several but you people just don't get it NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE BAD no matter what people like you think . Your thought or thoughts make you no different then a hater then a terrorist etc if you keep up with that logic in all due respect think out side the box not in it .

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

But how does this square with your previous (and true) comment that actions are more attention grabbing than words ? Since (not if) the fundamentalists have been much move vocal, active, and willing to put themselves, not just their beliefs, into the fore, much more so than reformers, how else can you expect the media talking heads to do their jobs ? Calling the media 'bias' ignores this problem.

The root of the problem isn't the Media. It's Muslims themselves. While other religions have sought to look outward, Muslims, after 9/11, imploded. There was no organized structure for the Media to go to to ask "Is this Islam?" While a journalist can go to the Archdiocese of Baltimore, to have a question about Catholicism answered on a level where the whole is satisfied. There is no equivalent counterpart in Islam. There are well organized Private Islamic Schools in Baltimore, Buffalo, New York etc but they have wanted to keep away from the spotlight due to the fact that not many Imam, equivalent of Priest/Rabbi, have training in handling P.R.

Even the organizations that have risen, CAIR etc are second rate, due that Muslims aren't interested in the Political Sphere. "I want my son to be an Engineer", "My daughter is studying medicine at Johns Hopkins". If you add "My son graduated in International Relations" eyebrows raise.

I disagree. Take the Vatican, for example. What the Pope and his clique says about Catholics -- defines Catholicism and by extension, the world can look at one group and can reasonably attributes certain characteristics the group's beliefs and actions to be representative of the whole.
Granted, Catholics and assorted Christian sects do consent to these minority groups to speak for and to represent the sects, but if polls among the Muslims are any trending indicators, it looks like there are enough supporters of Islamic fundamentalism and more extreme Islamic fundamentalism to warrant caution for observers NOT to assume reformers have any relevance INSIDE the ME. Outside the ME ? Great, there are enough reformers to credibly challenge the fundamentalists mano-a-mano on any day on any channel. Inside the ME ? Reformers are either dead or on the way there.

Catholicism and Islam are different in the Religious Institutional structure. Catholics have accepted a central leadership, and have the Pope as the highest authority on Earth.

While Muslims being Muslims, have a decentralized structure, granted all Muslims view the House of Saud as the Guardians Islam's Holiest sites of Mecca and Medina, we, thankfully, don't take their fatwas. There a Three different denominations of Islam, Sunni, Shia, Sufi. Continuing on this, there are also Five different schools of thought in Islam, in Sunni; Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, and Hanbali. Each differ in certain aspects of worship.

 

[jaunty]

Two foam-at-the-mouth Jewish bigots (Bill Maher and Sam Harris) attacking Islam.

If the roles were reversed, it would be called anti-Semitic hate speech.

By tagging Bill Maher as a "Jewish bigot" you are actually displaying your own bigotry!

 

[Chronos]

Two foam-at-the-mouth Jewish bigots (Bill Maher and Sam Harris) attacking Islam.

If the roles were reversed, it would be called anti-Semitic hate speech.

There is a reason I hate Sam Harris and Bill Maher especially

pontificating pri..

you know what I mean

 

[Chronos]

You may be right, but I feel, there is a natural tendency to compare with the previous actor who played the role. There Ben will find it difficult. Anyway, let's see.

P.S- Ben Affleck did poorly in this debate. Maher and the other guy kept giving numbers and stats while Ben had nothing to answer for them.

Maher and the other guy kept giving wrong numbers. It still doesn't change the fact that 60% of Egyptians, an equal amount of Pakistanis support the death penalty for apostates.

But it should be seen in the context of Indonesia, Tajikistan, etc having less than 10% supporting the death penalty for apostasy.

It isn't just Islam on it's own, there is also cultural and geo-politics at play as well.

 

[gambit]

You still didn't the point I was making simply ..... you can believe what you like. I am proud Pakistani American and a Muslim my parents didn't teach me to kill or to hate and etc is the point I was making out of the several but you people just don't get it NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE BAD no matter what people like you think . Your thought or thoughts make you no different then a hater then a terrorist etc if you keep up with that logic in all due respect think out side the box not in it .

I do not have HBO so I do not watch Maher's show regularly. But I am like Maher in the sense that we judge based upon actions, not words, or at least what words what supposedly 'holy' books may say about religions. We feel that it is NOT our burdens to research the theologies of religions of those who would present themselves and their religions for our scrutiny.

Like it or not, no matter how much you protest that 'not all Muslims are bad', there are enough Muslims who drew upon Islam for motivations and justifications to do 'bad' things, even though in their minds, those deeds are not 'bad' at all, and precisely because there are enough Muslims in that group, the natural responses by non-believers are that of caution, doubts, and even outright hostility.

There was no organized structure for the Media to go to to ask "Is this Islam?"

Source: Ben Affleck gets worked up defending Islam on Bill Maher's show | Page 4

Just as the man said (post 51), the non-believers have no central theological authority to seek clarification and rebuttals and it is another natural response to seek out such authority. Then in the absence of that central theological authority, there will more Muslims like Al-Qaeda and IS, and there will be more Bill Mahers among us.

This vicious cycle can be broken only by the Muslims. Not us.

 

[Aepsilons]

Gentlemen,

In the weeks following the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, one could read in western apologetic accounts that Osama Bin Laden and his associates were not graduates of Islamic universities, and did not , therefore , present Islamic theology or the Islamic Legal Tradition.

Whereas these accounts are accurate, they are from from telling the full story. Not only do Muslim fundamentalists and Islamist – that is, fundamentalists with a political agenda—show no interest in formal religious training; they are also “anti-intellectualists”, according to Islam’s own standards of religious education.

One the one hand, they deny any value to endeavors such as independent reasoning (ijtihad), a source of legal decisions dear to most Islamic schools of law since the Middle Ages. Consequently, they have no notion of a communal scholarly quest that requires a free space of inquiry and remains by nature open-ended, which was common practice in the classical madrasa.

On the other hand, although fundamentalists keep referring to “tradition”, a key notion in their ideology, they actually prove to be “anti-traditionalists” with respect to what has historically been the practice of Islam. The damage they are doing to Islam’s intellectual and scholarly legacy is of such a systematic nature that it is hard to believe this to be an expression of sheer ignorance of how theological and legal matters ought to be dealt with.

Muslim scholars have diagnosed the decline in intellectual interest in contemporary Islam, attributing this to various factors ranging form the effects of colonialism—such as Westernization, the modern identity crisis, and the economic breakdown of most of the Muslim World—to puritanical Saudi Wahhabism. Khaled M. Abou El Fadl (UCLA School of Law), for instance, denounces in his published Conference of the Books and deterioration of Islam’s original “ethos of knowledge” This is how he assesses the loss:

“Muslim connections to the epistemology, processes, and products of their intellectual heritage have been severed in the modern age. It is not that this intellectual heritage was ideal or free of problem,s but that its ethical and moral potential is far superior to anything that replaced it.”​

Reference:

Albertini, T. (2003). The Seductiveness Of Certainty:The Destruction Of Islam's Intellectual Legacy By The Fundamentalists. Philosophy East & West, 53(4), 455-470.

Uluç, T. (n.d). Modernist and Fundamentalist Debates in Islam (Book). Muslim World, 94(1), 139-143.

 

[Developereo]

What is needed is a better narrative to counter such views. That is what we lack IMO.

What is needed is the intellectual honesty to admit that Jewish bigots are allowed to make generalizations about non-Jews, especially Christians and Muslims (e.g. Borat, Ali G, etc.) but non-Jews are not allowed to make the same observations about Jewish fanatics.

Bill to me seems more atheist than Jewish

That's the standard deflective tactic, to claim you are atheist.

Bill Maher may be an atheist, but his mother is Jewish and he is a hardcore Zionist.

If you don't believe me, watch his movie Religulous. He trashes Christian and Muslim extremists but, when it comes time to criticize Jewish extremists, he chose to bash ultra-Orthodox Jews who oppose Israel. He completely ignored the Jewish fanatics who use religion as a tool to justify Israel.

He is a Jewish bigot. No doubt about it.

Though I dont agree with Mr Bill Maher's views, I must say that he is very "liberal" in dishing out his hatred to all religions. You should watch Religulous to understand why I say that.

But most importantly, I think Mr. Michael Steele, the ex-GOP president, nailed the issue correctly. The voices of moderates is drowned in the cacophony of the fundamentalists, that it is not given the same coverage by the media as it gives to the fundamentalists. That goes for all religious fundamentalists.

Read my comment above about Religulous. Watch which Jews he criticizes -- the ones who oppose Israel -- not the much larger mass of Jewish fanatics who use religion to support Israel.

His intellectual dishonesty was always on display, but that movie brought it to the fore.

 

[Developereo]

There is a reason I hate Sam Harris and Bill Maher especially

pontificating pri..

you know what I mean

In this particular case, they have an agenda: a Zionist agenda to malign Israel's enemies. It has nothing to do with liberalism.

By tagging Bill Maher as a "Jewish bigot" you are actually displaying your own bigotry!

His mother is Jewish and his intellectual dishonesty is on display.

Read my comments about his movie Religulous. If he was against religious extremism, he should denounce Israel. Instead he chooses to denounce Jews who oppose Israel.

He is a bigot who happens to have a Jewish heritage.
Yes, Jews can be bigots, too, and it sis perfectly fine to point that out.

Maher is not a serious commentator, so I guess, I should expect some jokes, some half truths, some cliches. One does not need to take him seriously.
Sam Harris on other hand tried to make serious point but is drowned by others shouting. He is much more brutal about christianity, so I wont call him anti islam as such.
In west islam is relatively less criticized compared to christianity. Hinduism and buddism even less.
@jamahir .. which bits that sam harris says you find hateful. He is quite smug sometimes, and thats quite annoying..

Both of them are hardcore Zionists who share an agenda to attack Israel's enemies.

If they were intellectually honest, they would apply the same harsh standards to Jewish bigots who justify Israel's colonialism based, allegedly, on Judaism.

Both of them have Jewish mothers, hide behind the charade of being raised non-Jewish, and attack Christians and Muslims, while giving a pass to Jewish extremists.

 

[Indos]

@gambit @Ravi Nair and others, just for info for any one reading that Washington Post article delivered by gambit. I just want to clarify that Indonesian is actually more religious than Egyptian and Pakistan based on Pew Research. I can say that if you go to Jakarta Mall, see a pretty woman with an open dress, but please don't judge them as liberal since you can be surprised as they will go to praying place at that Mall when praying time comes....

And as I said above as well, that our Quran said that "there should not be any compulsion in religion"

If we talk about Shariah Islam, it is divided into two pieces, private and public. In private term, we cannot force some one to pray or use hijab, what we can do is only to advocate them. But in public term, yes there is a compulsion like punishing criminals, corruptors etc.

I never heard our prophet punish someone because he/she doesn't pray.

Chapter 2: Religious Commitment | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

 

[Developereo]

This is funny. The right wing Frontpage mag called Maher an anti-semite.

All they are saying is that he is not as hardcore Zionist as they would like.

Also note that Bill Maher is commenting on Israeli influence on US politics, he is not criticizing the abuse of religion (Judaism, in this case) for political purposes.