Beijing vows justice after Islamic State kills Chinese captive

[Zsari]

lol, no, as I said, If I train some people and liable to its action then so should the world.

The person who is changing allegiance is not changing it because he or she got what they trained with by the US, he or she change their allegiance because of the attitude of the world, eg how he or she see the world changing.

If I train someone, not even need to someone overseas. Say in a police academy, what happen if that person gone thru the police academy but decided he or she could better use his/her knowledge to make money by committing crime? Then did the police academy would be accountable to his/her action? So basically, there should never be a police academy because the trainee may choose to become a criminal instead and by your logic, having an academy could use to support criminal. Because the police academy cannot have control over individual will?

This is not the same as the nuclear missile, you don't deal with nuclear missile in a day to day basis, and if you ask me, no country in this world should have nuclear missile to begin with.

The principle is the same. And why are you training foreign fighters for clandestine operation on a daily basis?
By your example if you are training someone through the police academy and he turn to life of crime, then you are responsible in arresting him and put him in jail. That's the responsibility of a government.

Well, or any store would not sell anything that can be remotely used as weapon.

Let me go to a local home depot and get a hammer.

Sale Clerk : "You sure you won't use it to kill someone"?
I said : No I won't

Then I turn around and killed the sale clerk with said hammer....And blame him for selling me the hammer...

Lol. Are you trying to draw a scenario in justifying Kim's action if he was to sell nuclear warheads to any non-state party?

 

[jhungary]

The principle is the same. And why are you training foreign fighters for clandestine operation on a daily basis?

Why not? Did China train Vietnam Communist during their war with the American? The same reason why the American train foreign rebel. So if China did it and it's alright, but when America did it, it's suddenly not okay??

By your example if you are training someone through the police academy and he turn to life of crime, then you are responsible in arresting him and put him in jail. That's the responsibility of a government.

Dude, it would be the POLICE, not police academy to put away that criminal. The responsibility of the government is to enforce civilization by providing law and order. But it would not be the academy job to do that, the job for academy is to turn out police officer by provide training, but that's another problem altogether if the person in training turn out to be a criminal. Placing blame is a lot different than assign responsibility.

And what about if that person went overseas, would that be my police academy job to "arrest him" overseas since we trained the person? What you are saying does not makes sense. As no organisation can hold responsibility of an individual mind, that's why they were called "Free-Will" to begin with.

 

[Zsari]

But in that case you also have to understand that Russia, too, is in cahoots of international interventionists by directly training B. Asad's Military with counter-insurgency tactics, even in the training of Kurdish forces, who then ultimately utilize that against ISIS, but also against Turkish and even Iranian forces , who are both against the genesis of a Kurdistan. You see the flaw in your argument? The argument that the west is the sole inheritor of blame ? Why even China provides military aid to Kurds, who are separatists in nature, separatist towards Turkey , Iran and Iraq.

We all know that US is training and arming the Kurds. I have yet to read report that Russia and China have been doing that. Military exchange and cooperation exists between states, and there is such thing called alliance that bind these states together in sharing the responsibility and liability.

Why not? Did China train Vietnam Communist during their war with the American? The same reason why the American train foreign rebel. So if China did it and it's alright, but when America did it, it's suddenly not okay?

And yes, China trained Vietnam during its war of unification, and China went to war with Vietnam for its invasion of Cambodia. That's called liability.

Dude, it would be the POLICE, not police academy to put away that criminal. The responsibility of the government is to enforce civilization by providing law and order. But it would not be the academy job to do that, the job for academy is to turn out police officer by provide training, but that's another problem altogether if the person in training turn out to be a criminal. Placing blame is a lot different than assign responsibility.

Dude, police or the policy academy are both instrument of the state. Its like saying CIA conduct would have nothing to do with the state department, but the US government is ultimately responsible for the action of both.

 

[jhungary]

Lol. Are you trying to draw a scenario in justifying Kim's action if he was to sell nuclear warheads to any non-state party?

Dude, selling arms is not the same as provide training. Especially if you are talking about nuclear arms.

Can I hold Eugene Stoner responsible for all the killing related to war and crime committed using an M-16?
Can I hold Mikhail Kalashnikov responsible for all the killing related to war and crime committed using an AK-47?

Selling arms is one thing, having the responsibility is another. And Nuclear Weapon is another problem, you have a responsibility itself to govern the use of Weapon of Mass Destruction. As they are not supposed to be spread around like a simple M-16 rifle or AK-47. Responsibility alone does not make one country accountable for its action, but the action implied by the responsibility did.

We all know that US is training and arming the Kurds. I have yet to read report that Russia and China have been doing that. Military exchange and cooperation exists between states, and there is such thing called alliance that bind these states together in sharing the responsibility and liability.

lol US is arming the Kurd? FSA not qual to Kurd

And no, Russia and China have been doing that, China help trained ISI which in turn help trained TeT and AQ fraction, how about the situation in Myanmar? Or Maoist in Northern India?

And Russia, well, don't get me started in Russia, Eastern Ukrainian Rebel, Chechen Rebel, Egyptian orthodox, you name it.

Just because you never heard of them does not mean they did not exist. There are tons of example about China and Russia training Non-State actor. You probably just don't want it to be true.

And yes, China trained Vietnam during its war of unification, and China went to war with Vietnam for its invasion of Cambodia. That's called liability.

lol, what liability? China did not went to war because they trained the NVA/PLF right?

Dude, police or the policy academy are both instrument of the state. Its like saying CIA conduct would have nothing to do with the state department, but the US government is ultimately responsible for the action of both.

lol I don't know how much you know about US government, US government, unlike China, does not have central responsibility like what you said (One department is accountable to other's action) Police and Police Academy are two separate entity. CIA and State Department are two separate entity. And no, US government did not hold accountable to individual action for both. That's what we called Public Liability act.

US government have responsibly to manage the organisation, but in term of its personnel, they cannot hold responsibility for individual action, as I said before, free will, no one can control what other thinks. How am I be responsible for something someone else did? I only responsible for my own action.

I was trained by the US Army, hence Department of Defence, if I went on to become a mercenary tomorrow, will that be US government fault because I had training with them?

 

[Zsari]

Dude, selling arms is not the same as provide training. Especially if you are talking about nuclear arms.

Your example is that of selling arm, not providing training. Besides, providing training would incur far more liability than a commercial transaction.

lol US is arming the Kurd? FSA not qual to Kurd.

And no, Russia and China have been doing that, China help trained ISI which in turn help trained TeT and AQ fraction, how about the situation in Myanmar? Or Maoist in Northern India?.

And Russia, well, don't get me started in Russia, Eastern Ukrainian Rebel, Chechen Rebel, Egyptian orthodox, you name it.
Just because you never heard of them does not mean they did not exist. There are tons of example about China and Russia training Non-State actor. You probably just don't want it to be true.

What? That has been all over the news.

US sending arms to Iraq's Kurds in battle against militants, official says
U.S. Giving Military Aid to Kurds in Fight Against Insurgents

lol, what liability? China did not went to war because they trained the NVA/PLF right?.

That's exactly what liability is. If your action lead to the unintended consequence, you are responsible to clean it up.

lol
lol I don't know how much you know about US government, US government, unlike China, does not have central responsibility like what you said (One department is accountable to other's action) Police and Police Academy are two separate entity. CIA and State Department are two separate entity. And no, US government did not hold accountable to individual action for both. That's what we called Public Liability act.

US government have responsibly to manage the organisation, but in term of its personnel, they cannot hold responsibility for individual action, as I said before, free will, no one can control what other thinks. How am I be responsible for something someone else did? I only responsible for my own action.

I was trained by the US Army, hence Department of Defence, if I went on to become a mercenary tomorrow, will that be US government fault because I had training with them?

Lol. So if the CIA assassinate Putin tomorrow, US can just shrug off any responsibility via the Public Liability Act? Or if the US navy unloaded its Tomahawks in Beijing tomorrow, the US government would just say, hey, Public liability act, I didn't do it? Lol. The US government is held responsible for all the action of its branches, including clandestine ops.

 

[jhungary]

Your example is that of selling arm, not providing training. Besides, providing training would incur far more liability than a commercial transaction.

Actually, selling arms would incur far more liability than training.

Training can be seen as a purely friendly cooperation (Alas service exchange), but selling arms is the definite response to conflict resolution. (well, the basis of selling arms is to use them in conflict.)

What? That has been all over the news.

US sending arms to Iraq's Kurds in battle against militants, official says
U.S. Giving Military Aid to Kurds in Fight Against Insurgents

Well, my bad, I thought you are talking about Syrian Kurd, anyway, that does not deviate my point. Everyone is training someone.

That's exactly what liability is. If your action lead to the unintended consequence, you are responsible to clean it up.

No, again, did China went to war in Vietnam simply because they trained the Vietnamese gruella?
As I said, even US trained Vietminh, does that mean they are responsible for Ho Chi Minh and co?

Lol. So if the CIA assassinate Putin tomorrow, US can just shrug off any responsibility via the Public Liability Act? Or if the US navy unloaded its Tomahawks in Beijing tomorrow, the US government would just say, hey, Public liability act, I didn't do it? Lol. The US government is held responsible for all the action of its branches, including clandestine ops.

Dude, you totally misunderstood what I wrote, I don't know did you intentionally do that or not.

US Government responsible for their organisation, not their personnel.

If US government ordered CIA to assassinate Putin, of course they are accountable for their action. But if one Disgruntled CIA employee decided to take on Putin on his own, can the US government accountable for said action?

And no, US government did not hold the action of all its branches too. Government accountability to its department stop on the executive power. The government can control its action, but they are not responsible for the individual department action. As each department have their own autonomy.

 

[Zsari]

Actually, selling arms would incur far more liability than training.

Training can be seen as a purely friendly cooperation (Alas service exchange), but selling arms is the definite response to conflict resolution. (well, the basis of selling arms is to use them in conflict.).

You are talking about a different kind of training, like the US China joint drills conducted. The basis to selling arm is so one can defend themselves, that every Texan will tell you.

No, again, did China went to war in Vietnam simply because they trained the Vietnamese gruella?

The cause is always the action taken by the group/people you've trained. Invasion of Cambodia in this case, or Paris attack in case of ISIS.

If US government ordered CIA to assassinate Putin, of course they are accountable for their action. But if one Disgruntled CIA employee decided to take on Putin on his own, can the US government accountable for said action?

And no, US government did not hold the action of all its branches too. Government accountability to its department stop on the executive power. The government can control its action, but they are not responsible for the individual department action. As each department have their own autonomy.

If you think a rouge actor within CIA assassinated Putin, Russia would not held the US government responsible, then you must be kidding yourself. And yes, US government does not dictate every action taken by all of its branches, but whatever goes wrong within, the US government will be held accountable for it. Remember when the health department was having difficulties in maintaining its webpage? Its the Obama administration that came out apologizing, not just the head of a single department.

 

[jhungary]

You are talking about a different kind of training, like the US China joint drills conducted. The basis to selling arm is so one can defend themselves, that every Texan will tell you.

No, I am not saying US-China joint drill.

Training provided by host country to different country have a lot of level, and almost all of them are counted toward some sort of exchange and cooperation. Of course at the highest and clandestine level, it would be otherwise, but this is hardly the case with US and ISIS.

ISIS operator got their training BEFORE they change their allegiance, they could be former military personnel in a country that is friendly to the US, then such training will be like USMA accepting Indian, Pakistani and Japanese Officer Candidate into their rank or India host Jungle Warfare Training Camp where US soldier participate.

Or it will be like some sort of assistance program, which mostly the ISIS operator belong to. Where US will send teams to construct one country armed forces when they request. US have been doing so in Columbia, Bolivia, Mexico, Egypt, Ukraine, and Mali. They request the US assistance and US train their personnel, then some how they change their allegiance.

On the other hand, selling arms (not like individual buying rifle and pistol in Texas) means Arming an organisation. It can make from Arming the armed force with small arms, also, most of the time, Offensive Weapon like Heavy Weaponry are include, such as Fighter Jet, Artillery, Warship. Propping up an Armed Force by selling Arms have way more consequence than Training an Armed Force, as it goes beyond service sharing.

The cause is always the action taken by the group/people you've trained. Invasion of Cambodia in this case, or Paris attack in case of ISIS.

Again, China invade Vietnam in 1979 have nothing to do with Chinese Assistance to Vietnam during Vietnam war. It have more to do with Chinese Interest. Had Vietnam did not threaten Cambodia, but the same force threaten Thailand would you think China would care to invade Vietnam in 1979?

If you think a rouge actor within CIA assassinated Putin, Russia would not held the US government responsible, then you must be kidding yourself. And yes, US government does not dictate every action taken by all of its branches, but whatever goes wrong within, the US government will be held accountable for it. Remember when the health department was having difficulties in maintaining its webpage? Its the Obama administration that came out apologizing, not just the head of a single department.

But this is not the case you mention, ain't it. Obama is the figure head and he is responsible for policy making, in fact, if I remember correctly, it's Obamacare he is apologising for HHS. Of course he is responsible, that's his job, and his policy.

Accountability is not the same as assigning blame, yes, if a Rouge agent left CIA then assassinate Putin, the Russia Government may blame the US government, but did US government accountable for the agent once he left their grid? No. Especially the case if he decided to join another group, and change his allegiance publicly. Would you think Russia will even blame the US government if one of their agent left and join ISIS and assassinate the Russian President?

 

[mike2000 is back]

In brief, there are two countries that should be responsible for the islam extremism expansion.

One, Saudi Arabia, who is the source of extremism ideology and biggest Wahabi exporter to all the world using their oil dollar.

Two ,USA of course. For two reasons:
Reason a: Saudi Arabia's main supporter and an accomplice of Saudi Arabia(Strangely this country is not democratic at all). Till now USA is still supporting these Wahabi extremists. ISIS was one of the extremism groups supported by USA.
Reason b: As I said at #28

The same Saudi Arabia you sold/still sell weapons to and have good relations with as well.
China Secretly Sold Saudi Arabia DF-21 Missiles With CIA Approval | The Diplomat
Saudis Use Chinese-made Cannons in Yemen | Popular Science

Why do you people like claiming you are holier than thou when you are not? The day you cut all relations with Saudi Arabia and gulf countries instead of calling them strategic partners/friends that's the day i will admit China is holy.
Saudi Arabia, China’s ‘Good Friend’ | The Diplomat
Chinese premier meets Saudi Arabia Crown Prince - Xinhua | English.news.cn
Saudi Arabia, China’s ‘Good Friend’ | The Diplomat


At least we are honest.
David Cameron: 'It's not wrong to sell arms' to the Middle East | Daily Mail Online

 

[Aepsilons]

The same Saudi Arabia you sold/still sell weapons to and have good relations with as well.
China Secretly Sold Saudi Arabia DF-21 Missiles With CIA Approval | The Diplomat
Saudis Use Chinese-made Cannons in Yemen | Popular Science

Why do you people like claiming you are holier than thou when you are not? The day you cut all relations with Saudi Arabia and gulf countries instead of calling them strategic partners/friends that's the day i will admit China is holy.
Saudi Arabia, China’s ‘Good Friend’ | The Diplomat
Chinese premier meets Saudi Arabia Crown Prince - Xinhua | English.news.cn
Saudi Arabia, China’s ‘Good Friend’ | The Diplomat


At least we are honest.
David Cameron: 'It's not wrong to sell arms' to the Middle East | Daily Mail Online

Well, the bilateral trade between the Chinese and the Saudis have already hit over the $200 Billion mark. An academic once opined by describing the relations between the two as "a marriage of convenience", tho I believe it is a marriage of dual national energy pursuits. Saudi Arabia is one of the largest exporters of raw petroleum and the Chinese are the largest consumer thereof. China in the following years will balance interests between the gulf that divides Saudi-led Sunni Middle East and the Irani-led Shia Enclave.

Why do you people like claiming you are holier than thou when you are not? The day you cut all relations with Saudi Arabia and gulf countries instead of calling them strategic partners/friends that's the day i will admit China is holy.

I suppose our friend has limited understanding of the complex , deep seated relationship China has with the GCC states, especially the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The clout of the Kingdom lies on its religious influence on the Sunni followers of Islam, being the site of the holy cities of Mecca and Medina, the epicenter of the Islamic heritage. Second, Saudi Arabia's immense gold reserves and immense oil reserves that are in itself source of geopolitical clout.

 

[mike2000 is back]

Well, the bilateral trade between the Chinese and the Saudis have already hit over the $200 Billion mark. An academic once opined by describing the relations between the two as "a marriage of convenience", tho I believe it is a marriage of dual national energy pursuits. Saudi Arabia is one of the largest exporters of raw petroleum and the Chinese are the largest consumer thereof. China in the following years will balance interests between the gulf that divides Saudi-led Sunni Middle East and the Irani-led Shia Enclave.

No, Never, that shouldn't be the case, China should cut off all relations with the wahabi terror sponsor saudi Arabia. China cant deal with terrorists states to the point of having bilateral trade of over $200billion dollars a year and growing
That's immoral to say the least..

 

[Aepsilons]

No, Never, that shouldn't be the case, China should cut off all relations with the wahabi terror sponsor saudi Arabia. China cant deal with terrorists states to the point of having bilateral trade of over $200billion dollars a year and growing
That's immoral to say the least..

As my economist friends would say, @mike2000 is back , "business is one thing, personal interests is another." The Chinese, i suppose, know how to separate business from national pleasure. Hehehe. At least the political leaders that is. Let the pundits and domestic consumers debate all they want, afterall, in the end of the day policy of China's external and internal affairs is decided upon by the CPC, not the common folk.

 

[kankan326]

The same Saudi Arabia you sold/still sell weapons to and have good relations with as well.
China Secretly Sold Saudi Arabia DF-21 Missiles With CIA Approval | The Diplomat
Saudis Use Chinese-made Cannons in Yemen | Popular Science

Why do you people like claiming you are holier than thou when you are not? The day you cut all relations with Saudi Arabia and gulf countries instead of calling them strategic partners/friends that's the day i will admit China is holy.
Saudi Arabia, China’s ‘Good Friend’ | The Diplomat
Chinese premier meets Saudi Arabia Crown Prince - Xinhua | English.news.cn
Saudi Arabia, China’s ‘Good Friend’ | The Diplomat


At least we are honest.
David Cameron: 'It's not wrong to sell arms' to the Middle East | Daily Mail Online

When did I say I'm holier? China never used political correctness as a weapon to condemn others. It's something western countries like to play. Doing business is not political support. Totally different from what USA is doing to SA.