Beating the Indian Navy without going broke

[Arsalan]

I wonder if you know how triangulation actually works.

And I wonder if you know how much effort is actually needed to first find a target and then get close to a target for triangulation to actually work.

Ever heard of marine traffic?

I wonder why you think that only you know about these things....

Silly argument. He talked about sonars, I talked about satellites.

NO!
He said Sonars CAN BE used to triangulate position
You said that only satellite can do it, that was what started the silly posts and war of words spoiling the thread, exactly as you wanted. With no end in sight and given your previous track record, this beating about the bush will continue and the thread wont be giving a possible fact base discussion. Thank you.

 

[randomradio]

NO!
He said Sonars CAN BE used to triangulate position
You said that only satellite can do it, that was what started the silly posts and war of words spoiling the thread, exactly as you wanted. With no end in sight and given your previous track record, this beating about the bush will continue and the thread wont be giving a possible fact base discussion. Thank you.

Wow. Talk about comprehension problems.

This is what I said:
What you need is satellite surveillance if you want to detect a carrier from 1500Km away. And for real time information, you need lots and lots of satellites.

Now go figure.

Who's spoiling the thread again?

 

[xyxmt]

Is Indian navy still in service, haven't heard any self destruction news about any ship or sub in last 6 months.

 

[Safriz]

Spy satellites do not stay in one place, except in movies and TV. Optical spy satellites usually are in a north/south orbit. They typically get one snapshot of each spot on Earth once a day. If they want to move them, they use rocket thrusters, but in practice they don’t because they want to save the fuel for use in attitude and altitude correction. In stead of moving the satellite, they just wait for it to come around to the same spot again. So, one brief look per 24 hours per satellite. But, they have more than one satellite. If they had 12 satellites, they would get a look every two hours.

So spy satellites CANNOT be used for missile guidance.

 

[SQ8]

Already discussed
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-navy-the-phoenix-rises.454569/

 

[Basel]

It's not difficult to make ASATs with our current tech.

Also, China still does not have a deployed ASAT capability.
This is a 2018 report.
https://spacenews.com/u-s-intellige...tional-anti-satellite-weapons-in-a-few-years/
U.S. intelligence predicts that “destructive” Russian and Chinese anti-satellite weapons probably will reach “initial operational capability in the next few years.”

And we have all the tech necessary to make our own ASATs. It's an extension of our BMD program. We have a midcourse BMD in the works also. This will have an altitude of 1000Km.

And:
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...an-be-made-in-3-days/articleshow/61746668.cms
Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro) is developing a small launch vehicle that can be assembled in just three days...
...this rocket will have the total payload capacity of 500 to 700 kg and can launch satellites only up to the polar sun-synchronous orbit or near-earth orbit (500-700 km in altitude)."

So we have the ability to make up for any losses in satellites very quickly.

India and China are not adversaries and the Chinese will not risk a position of weakness versus Japan and the US by butting heads with India for the sake of Pakistan.



PN's current and known future make up present no actual threat to the IN.

Even the Australians are comfortable saying the RAN, with a far superior navy than PN, will stand no chance against the PLAN. Otoh, PN is decades away from even coming up to par with Australia.

If you want the PN to compete with the IN, you need to provide them with carriers, SSNs and AAW destroyers, apart from a robust satellite capability. Decades.



It's a navigation system. It can't find carriers.

The thing is that when ASAT will be needed then Pakistan will get it, don't worry about it, and China can deploy ASAT it's just matter of time when they announce it.

Also PN is on shopping spree, and all future purchases are not public yet, even coast guard/PMSA is being beefed up and in war their assets can deploy heavy weapons in NCW environment.

Moreover, PN already have 700km CM and even small FACs are deployed with 300km AShM/LACM with NCW capability, PN is also extensively using UAVs / UUVs even deploy them from ships and in future from subs too.

The objective of PN is not sea control instead it area denial and PN is getting the required stuff to do that.

There are other ways too to fool spy satellites or cyber capabilities to render them useless during conflict time.

 

[randomradio]

The thing is that when ASAT will be needed then Pakistan will get it, don't worry about it, and China can deploy ASAT it's just matter of time when they announce it.

I wouldn't hold my breath.

First, you need to develop relations to the point where you are both buying the same equipment at the very least, not get export grade, previous generation hand-me-downs from the Chinese MIC. It will be an improvement if you at least start JVs with the Chinese for equipment that was rejected by the PLA.

Also PN is on shopping spree, and all future purchases are not public yet, even coast guard/PMSA is being beefed up and in war their assets can deploy heavy weapons in NCW environment.

Carrier, SSN and AAW destroyers. Let me know when you get these. Even SSN and AAW will do, forget carriers.

The fact is PA and PAF have to be modernised before the PN can get all the goodies. So until that happens, the PN will have to be happy with some earlier generation frigates carrying outdated technologies.

Moreover, PN already have 700km CM and even small FACs are deployed with 300km AShM/LACM with NCW capability, PN is also extensively using UAVs / UUVs even deploy them from ships and in future from subs too.

The range is irrelevant. It's the penetration capability that matters. Not to mention, the CMs need seekers, which you are yet to invent.

UAVs and UUVs are decades away from becoming capable enough to defeat CBGs. And I really means decades.

The objective of PN is not sea control instead it area denial and PN is getting the required stuff to do that.

Sea control and area denial are pretty much one and the same if you have to deal with the IN. You will actually have to defeat our assets in an actual fight even for sea denial to work.

 

[MilSpec]

So again, @MilSpec , i have read carefully but again is see NOTHING but a troll trying to talk about half a dozen different things just so the thread is derailed, as always.

So you will be able to provide terminal guidance to an ASBM using Sonar? Please do explain how you will convert the multiple source originated narrowband grams into GPS terminal guidance data for the the asbm?

 

[SipahSalar]

Asymmetrical capabilities would be the best route. One antiquated submarine locked down the entire British Navy in Falklands war. PN is already doing that by buying 8 more AIP capable submarines. On top of that JF-17s have been assigned a Naval role in addition to the Mirages. Equipped with CM-400AKG, they pack a powerful punch.

Fast attack crafts is also another route. Small boats with Harba missiles can be used to in swarm attacks. That is why PN is investing in Azmat class FACs.

 

[Basel]

I wouldn't hold my breath.

First, you need to develop relations to the point where you are both buying the same equipment at the very least, not get export grade, previous generation hand-me-downs from the Chinese MIC. It will be an improvement if you at least start JVs with the Chinese for equipment that was rejected by the PLA.



Carrier, SSN and AAW destroyers. Let me know when you get these. Even SSN and AAW will do, forget carriers.

The fact is PA and PAF have to be modernised before the PN can get all the goodies. So until that happens, the PN will have to be happy with some earlier generation frigates carrying outdated technologies.



The range is irrelevant. It's the penetration capability that matters. Not to mention, the CMs need seekers, which you are yet to invent.

UAVs and UUVs are decades away from becoming capable enough to defeat CBGs. And I really means decades.



Sea control and area denial are pretty much one and the same if you have to deal with the IN. You will actually have to defeat our assets in an actual fight even for sea denial to work.

Your post shows you don't have clue about relations between China & Pakistan, get the hint, the Type-54A of PN will be same as PLAN's meaning they will even have OTH radar and all other stuff.

Also Seeker tech is already there in Pakistan, as it was done during Mush time but was shelved, a 700km AShM with 500kg warhead is very deadly weapon.

 

[MilSpec]

Also PN is on shopping spree, and all future purchases are not public yet, even coast guard/PMSA is being beefed up and in war their assets can deploy heavy weapons in NCW environment.

interesting:

Out of the whole defence budget, Pakistan Army gets 47 per cent, 20 per cent goes to Pakistan Air Force, and Pakistan Navy gets around 10 per cent, said defence ministry officials.

According to the budget document 2018-19, out of the Rs1,100 billion, Rs423 billion have been allocated for employee-related expenses, Rs253.5 billion for operating expenses, Rs282 billion for local purchases and import of arms and ammunition, and Rs141 billion for civil works.
https://tribune.com.pk/story/1697218/1-defence-budget-around-20/

282 billion rupees , i.e. $2.29 Billion Capital out of which as per the reference Navy gets a 10%, so $229 million For Navy's Capital.

Given the entire capital budget of Pakistan military stands at 2.29 Billion and a Talwar class frigate bought from russia costs about $2.4 billion usd, you can understand the gap.

 

[Basel]

interesting:

Out of the whole defence budget, Pakistan Army gets 47 per cent, 20 per cent goes to Pakistan Air Force, and Pakistan Navy gets around 10 per cent, said defence ministry officials.

According to the budget document 2018-19, out of the Rs1,100 billion, Rs423 billion have been allocated for employee-related expenses, Rs253.5 billion for operating expenses, Rs282 billion for local purchases and import of arms and ammunition, and Rs141 billion for civil works.
https://tribune.com.pk/story/1697218/1-defence-budget-around-20/

282 billion rupees , i.e. $2.29 Billion Capital out of which as per the reference Navy gets a 10%, so $229 million For Navy's Capital.

Given the entire capital budget of Pakistan military stands at 2.29 Billion and a Talwar class frigate bought from russia costs about $2.4 billion usd, you can understand the gap.

You Indian post bla bla about money, but reality is that PN (not including purchase items of PMSA/Coast Guard) is getting big ticket items very rapidly, 4 Type-54A Stealthy ships (same as PLAN ones), 4 Stealth Corvettes from Turkey, 8 AIP subs with AShM / LACM capabilities, 3 A-90B Subs going MLU, rapid induction of upgraded Azmat class FACs with 300km AShM/LACMs, MPAs, new long range coastal defense batteries all those are confirmed stuff not including future upcoming agreements like upgrade of F-22Ps etc.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

Leave about Indian and Soviet flotilla but USN CBG ? Are you joking... are you aware of USN CBG fire power ??

Its not invincible. Battle plans exist for eventualities.

 

[randomradio]

Your post shows you don't have clue about relations between China & Pakistan, get the hint, the Type-54A of PN will be same as PLAN's meaning they will even have OTH radar and all other stuff.

Your F-22Ps already have OTH radars. And the Type 054A isn't good enough. It's basically in a similar class as our early Talwar class frigates with inferior SSMs, but slightly better SAMs.

As I said, I would see some equivalence in China-Pak relations only when both countries are buying similar systems, not earlier generation systems. By the time you get the Type 054A, it will be an outdated ship.

Also Seeker tech is already there in Pakistan, as it was done during Mush time but was shelved, a 700km AShM with 500kg warhead is very deadly weapon.

Let's see maybe once you've actually tested it then.

 

[Thorough Pro]

That aircraft carrier would be a liability for IN in any war against Pakistan. If it comes anywhere near our territorial waters we will turn it into a nice artificial reef. That carrier will be the prime target for our special AACCB units (don't ask me what is that?) and don't give me your bull crap carrier strike package ..... that carrier will go down faster than anything in history of naval wars.

The presence of an aircraft carrier creates a huge psychological effect on the enemy. It's a moving piece of land that you can't attack using ground forces, while it denies you the airspace. And its support assets deny the enemy the use of the sea. A CBG is the only fighting unit that completely denies the enemy all 4 dimensions, including time.