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[53fd]

^^^ This guys does not even know that it was Masood who requested Indian Govt to open a Military hospital in Northern Afg. and was so anti-Pakistan for its support for the Talibunnies.

There is a difference between Taliban forming with the help & support of Tribal Pashtuns in the FATA regions of Pakistan (where Pashtunwali applies, and Pakistani Law doesn't), and Pakistani government actually forming the Taliban. Pakistan & the Pakistani government did not form the Taliban. As I have told you before, the Taliban was formed by ethnic Afghan Pashtuns with the help from the Pashtun Tribals in the FATA region who wanted to form a Pashtun dominant government. Taliban was a Pashtun dominant government. Najibullah & Karzai's governments had a Pashtun president, but they were filled up by Tajiks & other ethnicities in other positions, as well as landlords. The landlords caused all the trouble in Afghanistan, & the common Afghan hated them. The Afghan Pashtun people wanted a Pashtun dominant government, & the Pashtuns from FATA provided that. The Pashtuns from FATA have always thought of themselves as more Afghan than Pakistanis. The Afghan Pashtuns were facilitated by the Pashtuns from FATA, the Pashtuns from FATA did not form the Taliban. This is exactly what you are seeing in the WOT today. This is what I mean by Indian conspiracy theories.

 

[Vinod2070]

^^ So does post#492 satisfy you that Masood had gone totally anti Pakistan due to it's support for Taliban?

Along with Osama Bin Laden!

 

[53fd]

^^^ I don't see how you can say that the Pakistani government formed or supported the Taliban. I told you before in my earlier posts how FATA was never integrated into mainstream Pakistan, & how it hated KPK for integrating into Pakistan. I explained to you the different dynamics of FATA from the rest of Pakistan & KPK. My point still stands that the Pakistani government & Pakistan did not form the Taliban or facilitate it. Pashtuns from FATA did not form the Taliban, Afghan Pashtuns did. Pakistan did not facilitate the Taliban, certain Pashtuns from the FATA region did, because of the open border with Pakistan, along with Pashtunwali, & their feeling more Afghan than Pakistani. Simple.

 

[KS]

Hekmetyar and Masood both were favorite poster boys of Pakistan. I don't see where I objected that Hekmetyar was not the favorite of Pakistan. I said Masood was almost equally well liked.

Wrong - Hekmatyar was THE ONLY blue-eyed boy of CIA and ISI. What Masood recieved was a pittance when comared to Hekmatyar and I have already proved it with link.

I don't think you understand a few things. I think its extremely stupid for Indians and other Pakistanis to believe in this simplified generalization that people have in their minds, that Pakistan supports the Taliban because they are Pashtuns, and India supports the Northern Alliance because they are non-Pashtuns. This is completely false. It's exactly the same thing as saying Al-Qaeda & Taliban are the same thing. They're not.

As far as India's part is concerned I know very well that we supported the NA , specifically Masood and definitely not the Talibunnies. And it is common knowledge that ISI sponsored the Talibunnies in lieu of their Strategic Depth policy.

If you argue otherwise, it only shows that you are not ready to deal with reality.

Pakistan supported the anti-Communists, which included Ahmed Shah Masood (Tajik, non-Pashtun), Hekmetyar (Pashtun) etc. India did not support the Northern Alliance, India was in favor of a Najibullah (Soviet backed communist, Pashtun nationalist) and Dostum (Uzbek, non-Pashtun communist). It does not have anything to do with Pashtuns, non-Pashtun.

Again wrong - India supported the NA and specifically Masood. Heck after the bomb blast Masood was first taken to the Indian Military Hospital that was built after his request.

After that; Pakistan didn't give a crap about Afghanistan or Afghanis. Masood, Hekmetyar, Mullah Umar went their own ways. They fought for power, and one of them got it. Simple. All other things you mention are mere speculation and a figment of your imagination.

More of your opinion and not fact. Talibunnies were infact supported by the ISI/PA in pursuance of their Strategic Depth policy and Pakistan was one of the only 3 countries in the world that recognized then along with KSA and UAE.

 

[53fd]

As far as India's part is concerned I know very well that we supported the NA , specifically Masood and definitely not the Talibunnies. And it is common knowledge that ISI sponsored the Talibunnies in lieu of their Strategic Depth policy. If you argue otherwise, it only shows that you are not ready to deal with reality. Again wrong - India supported the NA and specifically Masood. Heck after the bomb blast Masood was first taken to the Indian Military Hospital that was built after his request.

All of this is nothing but conspiracy theory. Please post your sources to support your claims, impartial sources that is, not some mere speculation & hearsay from some Western journalist. You have not quoted one credible source for your claims of the Pakistani government's involvement in forming & supporting the Taliban. The onus lies on you to prove the involvement of the Pakistani government in the forming & support of the Taliban. How would India gain the support of Masood when it went against him, supporting Najibullah and Dostum in the Cold War? You are simply contradicting the main historical facts. As I said, the Pakistani government did not form or facilitate the Taliban, the Afghan Pashtuns (Mullah Umar, Haqqani) formed it & were aided by certain Pashtun Tribals in the FATA region (where Pashtunwali is applied, not Pakistani Law). Pakistan didn't care what happened in Afghanistan then, just like the US didn't care after the Cold War. I see you are still quoting conspiracy theories from Western journalists to support your claim, when there is no reality to them.

 

[Roybot]

^^^ I don't see how you can say that the Pakistani government formed or supported the Taliban. I told you before in my earlier posts how FATA was never integrated into Pakistan, & how it hated KPK for integrating into Pakistan. I explained to you the different dynamics of FATA from the rest of Pakistan & KPK. My point still stands that the Pakistani government & Pakistan did not form the Taliban or facilitate it. Pashtuns from FATA did not form the Taliban, Afghan Pashtuns did. Pakistan did not facilitate the Taliban, certain Pashtuns from the FATA region did, because of the open border with Pakistan, along with Pashtunwali, & their feeling more Afghan than Pakistani. Simple.

But surely Pakistan was aware of this, and could have easily stopped it if it wanted to?

 

[53fd]

I guess Indians don't have any credible sources that suggest the Pakistani government's involvement in forming & supporting the Taliban. I have given you clear information as to who created & supported the Taliban, it's all very simple to understand if you want to.

 

[53fd]

But surely Pakistan was aware of this, and could have easily stopped it if it wanted to?

Do you think we can risk having our country split up further after our Eastern half was split away from us? Pakistan never gave a crap about FATA since 1947, let it do whatever it wanted to do, didn't interfere with their tribal code 'Pashunwali', & they were happy with us till the WOT. Pakistani Army never even set their foot into FATA before 2001. Before 2001, not even one Pakistani troop was sent in there.

 

[Vinod2070]

^^^ I don't see how you can say that the Pakistani government formed or supported the Taliban. I told you before in my earlier posts how FATA was never integrated into Pakistan, & how it hated KPK for integrating into Pakistan. I explained to you the different dynamics of FATA from the rest of Pakistan & KPK. My point still stands that the Pakistani government & Pakistan did not form the Taliban or facilitate it. Pashtuns from FATA did not form the Taliban, Afghan Pashtuns did. Pakistan did not facilitate the Taliban, certain Pashtuns from the FATA region did, because of the open border with Pakistan, along with Pashtunwali, & their feeling more Afghan than Pakistani. Simple.

OK. Let's keep it simple.

Do you now agree that Masood had become anti-Pakistan?

Do you also agree that he believed that Pakistan was supporting the Taliban and he went about gathering support against both?

 

[53fd]

This is why drone attacks, & ground operations by the Pakistani forces in FATA are such a huge issue with Pakistanis, even if they are sheltering some terrorists in there. Pakistan cannot afford to lose FATA like it lost East Pakistan, & if the US & other 'parties' keep insisting Pakistan continues these, Pakistan's territorial integrity will be in jeopardy.

 

[53fd]

OK. Let's keep it simple.

Do you now agree that Masood had become anti-Pakistan?

Do you also agree that he believed that Pakistan was supporting the Taliban and he went about gathering support against both?

I am saying he might have become vary of the Taliban support from the Pakistani FATA regions. He had not become anti-Pakistan. He was not pro-Indian either, as I have explained to you, India went against him during the Cold War, as well as going against him when they supported Najibullah and Dostum over Masood. So I cannot see how Masood could have ever become anti-Pakistan & pro-Indian. The rest you quoted is mere speculation from news reports that might not even be true. Simple enough.

I don't know what he believed, I'm not a mindreader or have some kind of magic powers. I don't know if he believed Pakistan was supporting the Taliban. It is mere speculation from news reports that might not even be true. I don't see how he went about and gathered support against Pakistan, against the Taliban he did, but not against Pakistan. He was focusing mainly on defeating the Taliban. The rest is all fiction & speculation.

 

[KS]

All of this is nothing but conspiracy theory. Please post your sources to support your claims, impartial sources that is, not some mere speculation & hearsay from some Western journalist. You have not quoted one credible source for your claims of the Pakistani government's involvement in forming & supporting the Taliban. The onus lies on you to prove the involvement of the Pakistani government in the forming & support of the Taliban. How would India gain the support of Masood when it went against him, supporting Najibullah and Dostum in the Cold War? You are simply contradicting the main historical facts. As I said, the Pakistani government did not form or facilitate the Taliban, the Afghan Pashtuns (Mullah Umar, Haqqani) formed it & were aided by certain Pashtun Tribals in the FATA region (where Pashtunwali is applied, not Pakistani Law). Pakistan didn't care what happened in Afghanistan then, just like the US didn't care after the Cold War. I see you are still quoting conspiracy theories from Western journalists to support your claim, when there is no reality to them.

Why dont you quote Pakistani sources disputing the claim ?? Till you dont post it my point stands.

And read these :

Revisiting Pakistan

Pakistan: ditching “strategic depth” | Pakistan: Now or Never? | Analysis & Opinion | Reuters.com

The ISI and Terrorism: Behind the Accusations - Council on Foreign Relations

Pakistan's 'godfathers of the Taliban' hold the key to hunt for bin Laden - Telegraph

Why all these ?? If you know a gentleman by the name of Hamid Gul you would not be rambling this here.

Kid, go ask the Think tanks over here as to who helped form the Talibunnies and then talk. And I just realised that I am just talking to one who doesnt have the courage to deal with reality and is cocooned in his own version of reality.

Last post from me.

 

[Roybot]

Do you think we can risk having our country split up further after our Eastern half was split away from us? Pakistan never gave a crap about FATA since 1947, let it do whatever it wanted to do, didn't interfere with their tribal code 'Pashunwali', & they were happy with us till the WOT. Pakistani Army never even set their foot into FATA before 2001. Before 2001, not even one Pakistani troop was sent in there.

There we go again. FATA belongs to Pakistan, they are your responsibility. You are saying Pakistan is happy with FATA people doing whatever they want, as long as they don't bother mainstream Pakistanis. Pakistan should make sure that terrorists aren't being recruited and trained in FATA. Or Pashtuns from FATA aren't going into Afghanistan and flogging people amongst other no goods.

Ever thought why the WOT is happening in your backyard? No offence mate, but its "The non-state actor" bs all over again.

 

[53fd]

There are nutjobs like Ahmed Qureshi, Zaid Hamid, Ahmed Rashid in Pakistan. There are equal nutjobs sitting in India, such as Bharat Verma and others. You cannot seriously claim their opinions are facts, correct? Hamid Gul has explicitly said he did not support the Taliban, and never has Pakistan or the Pakistani ISI. I repeat, Kashmir is a different matter, Afghanistan is not related to it. It has been proven, by confirmation from Musharraf & other people in history that Pakistan has indeed aided the Kashmiri Mujahideen.

See the names of the titles of these links (I have bolded the important parts):

Pakistan: ditching “strategic depth” | Pakistan: Now or Never? | Analysis & Opinion | Reuters.com

The ISI and Terrorism: Behind the Accusations - Council on Foreign Relations

I think you have run out of arguments, and have no impartial/substantiated evidence (not speculation or opinion) of indicting the Pakistani government in creating or aiding the Taliban. I repeat, Kashmir is a different matter, and I am ready to admit the Pakistani government's secret involvement in it. I think you need to give it a rest, because as I mentioned, you have no conclusive, impartial evidence proving the Pakistani government guilty, & you have run out of arguments. Goodbye.

 

[Vinod2070]

I am saying he had become vary of the Taliban support from the Pakistani FATA regions. He had not become anti-Pakistan. He was not pro-Indian either, as I have explained to you, India went against him during the Cold War, as well as going against him when they supported Najibullah and Dostum over Masood. So I cannot see how Masood could have ever become anti-Pakistan & pro-Indian. The rest you quoted is mere speculation from news reports that might not even be true. Simple enough.

I don't know what he believed, I'm not a mindreader or have some kind of magic powers. I don't know if he believed Pakistan was supporting the Taliban. It is mere speculation from news reports that might not even be true. I don't see how he went about and gathered support against Pakistan, against the Taliban he did, but not against Pakistan. He was focusing mainly on defeating the Taliban. The rest is all fiction & speculation.

Mate, I think you are a well meaning person.

You are just not able to acknowledge facts staring you in the face. I can't help any further.

Try and do some more reading. There is plenty of material on the web and given your lack of basic knowledge of pertinent facts, you will find a lot that will help you see the reality.