BBC Country Rating Poll

[KS]

Saleh, the former Afghan intelligence chief, read his views on Pakistan or watch some videos on youtube.

Ah Amrullah Saleh

Trust me you dont want to hear them if you are a Pakistani

 

[Roybot]

why? There was a good discussion going on.

 

[A1Kaid]

^ Mods will be the judge of that.

Thanks for your concern.

 

[53fd]

Abdullah Abdullah (the ex foreign minister of Afghanistan), what do you think of his views about Pakistan? Do some reading.

Saleh, the former Afghan intelligence chief, read his views on Pakistan or watch some videos on youtube.

The individual belief of one person does not mean anything. Pakistan has more trouble from Pashtun nationalist governments than NA ones. You are mixing quite a few things here. Najibullah, besides being a Pashtun nationalist, was also backed by the Soviets. Dostum (Uzbek) was also in favor of a Communist regime in Afghanistan. Pakistan was the ally of the US and against communism, which is why it mobilized its support for Ahmed Shah Masood and Hekmetyar against the Communists. Remember at this time, Masood and Hekmetyar were part of the Muhajideen (they had not off-shooted to form the Northern Alliance and Gulbudeen group) respectively, and they were being lauded by the US.

Pashtun nationalist governments like Zahir Shah, Najibullah, Karzai are much more of a threat than NA governments. I don't even know how to argue with you anymore, because propaganda is so deeply entrenched in your head, there's no possible way you can clean all that up from your mind. I admit a lot of my Pakistani compatriots and opinion makers are clueless. They try to justify that invasion for Afghanistan was for oil, when Afghanistan hardly has any oil. So I wouldn't take some of them seriously. But, I am seriously disturbed by all the misinformation spread in your head. The problem is, your point of view is completely opposite to the historical facts of Afghanistan.

Masood was never fully supported by the ISI even though he was the most efficient mujaheddin commander.

False. Masood had the complete support and confidence of Pakistan and the US. You are talking nuts, about conspiracy theories if you think Pakistan was involved in Masood's murder. That's like saying the CIA killed JFK because he did not allow Operation Northwood to occur. Preposterous. Why is Hekmetyar alive then, when he was more powerful than Masood when the Taliban killed him?

 

[A1Kaid]

As mods use to say "This thread has ran it's course."

 

[53fd]

That support was overtaken by events and he had become anti Pakistan after the war was over. Just try and keep current with the events.

The NA has been Anti Pakistan since then.

You say that, but you have no proof for your claim. NA is not a problem to Pakistan, Pashtun nationalists are. Tajiks do not hate Pakistan, Afghan Pashtun nationalists want to form Pashtunistan. Tajiks respect the territorial integrity of Pakistan. The reason some Tajiks (as you mentioned two people before) might dislike Pakistan is because of how Pakistani Tajiks are perceived to be treated in Pakistan, just as how some Pakistanis dislike India because they perceive Indian Muslims are treated badly in India. Same difference. Simple.

 

[Vinod2070]

The individual belief of one person does not mean anything.

They were the leaders of the Afghan government, the movers and shakers! Not individuals.

Pakistan has more trouble from Pashtun nationalist governments than NA ones.

I agree with this part.

You are mixing quite a few things here. Najibullah, besides being a Pashtun nationalist, was also backed by the Soviets.
Dostum (Uzbek) was also in favor of a Communist regime in Afghanistan. Pakistan was the ally of the US and against communism, which is why it mobilized its support for Ahmed Shah Masood and Hekmetyar against the Communists. Remember at this time, Masood and Hekmetyar were part of the Muhajideen (they had not off-shooted to form the Northern Alliance and Gulbudeen group) respectively, and they were being lauded by the US.

I know all that. Events have moved on after that romantic period of your history.

Both Dostum and Masood had finally become quite anti Pakistan. They had been given reasons for it.

Pashtun nationalist governments like Zahir Shah, Najibullah, Karzai are much more of a threat than NA governments. I don't even know how to argue with you anymore, because propaganda is so deeply entrenched in your head, there's no possible way you can clean all that up from your mind. I admit a lot of my Pakistani compatriots and opinion makers are clueless. They try to justify that invasion for Afghanistan was for oil, when Afghanistan hardly has any oil. So I wouldn't take some of them seriously. But, I am seriously disturbed by all the misinformation spread in your head. The problem is, your point of view is completely opposite of the historical facts of Afghanistan.

I am not denying that Pushtun nationalists are more of a danger to you.

That doesn't mean that the Tajiks and other non Pushtun minorities are not anti Pakistan now, due to Pakistan's support for Taliban. It is quite easy actually for you to see that.

If you want to do that in the first place!

Correct me if I gave a single fact wrong!

 

[Vinod2070]

You say that, but you have no proof for your claim. NA is not a problem to Pakistan, Pashtun nationalists are. Tajiks do not hate Pakistan, Afghan Pashtun nationalists want to form Pashtunistan. Tajiks respect the territorial integrity of Pakistan. The reason some Tajiks (as you mentioned two people before) might dislike Pakistan is because of how Pakistani Tajiks are perceived to be treated in Pakistan, just as how some Pakistanis dislike India because they perceive Indian Muslims are treated badly in India. Same difference. Simple.

Frankly, all this is so common knowledge that I would advise you to find out on your own.

I am not sure that the treatment of Pakistani Tajiks is the major issue for them. My understanding is that the most important reason is Taliban's treatment of non-Pushtuns in Afghanistan and Pakistan's support for that Taliban.

I am not disagreeing with you on the bigger problem of "Pushtun nationalism" for you though. You are quite right on that part.

 

[53fd]

Both Dostum and Masood had finally become quite anti Pakistan.

Dostum was always anti-Pakistan, I've explained to you why, he was a Communist, and wanted a Communist regime in Afghanistan, & was a supporter of the Soviet backed Najibullah. Masood never became anti-Pakistan till the moment he was killed. Afghan Tajiks might only be anti-Pakistan because of the perceived injustices by the Pakistani Pashtuns on Pakistani Tajiks, just like certain Pakistanis might hate India for the perceived injustices by the Hindus on the Indian Muslims. However, the Tajiks respect the territorial integrity of Pakistan. The rest which you are implying, that Masood was anti-Pakistan is nothing but conspiracy theory, and completely goes against the historical facts of the region.

 

[53fd]

My understanding is that the most important reason is Taliban's treatment of non-Pushtuns in Afghanistan and Pakistan's support for that Taliban.

These are nothing but conspiracy theories, and there is nothing to support these claims. It goes against the historical facts of the region. If Pakistan had supported the Taliban, then why did it not orchestrate the killing of Taliban's competing rival Gulbideen Hekmetyar, and other non-Taliban people it supported at that time? It is preposterous to even suggest Pakistan created the Taliban. Pakistan and the USA created the Mujahideen, the Taliban forming was a natural process, an off-shoot of the Mujahideen. At one time, Mullah Umar, Hekmetyar, Haqqani, Ahmed Shah Masood were fighting on the same side. They kicked out the Soviets, became greedy for power, and fought against each other. That's the simple truth free from conspiracy theories. Pakistan couldn't care less as to what was happening in Afghanistan.

 

[KS]

False. Masood had the complete support and confidence of Pakistan and the US.

Wrong - Hekmatyar was the favourite poster boy of the ISI during the Afghan war.

In alliance with Pakistan's Jamat-e-Islami, Hekmatyar became the recipient of the largest amount of monetary and military hardware assistance compared to other parties and groups in the CIA-funded war against the Soviet forces in Afghanistan.

`Kashmir jehad cannot break up India'

Leaders such as Ahmad Shah Massoud received only minor aid compared to Hekmatyar and some of the other parties, although Massoud was named the "Afghan who won the cold war" by the Wall Street Journal

It is you who doesnt know what you are talking about.

Why is Hekmetyar alive then, when he was more powerful than Masood when the Taliban killed him?

Because Hekmatyar is a lizard and will side with the group that has the upper hand. And he was in exile in Iran until 2002 while the Talibunnies were smoked away in 2001 itself.

 

[Vinod2070]

Dostum was always anti-Pakistan, I've explained to you why, he was a Communist, and wanted a Communist regime in Afghanistan, & was a supporter of the Soviet backed Najibullah. Masood never became anti-Pakistan till the moment he was killed. Afghan Tajiks might only be anti-Pakistan because of the perceived injustices by the Pakistani Pashtuns on Pakistani Tajiks, just like certain Pakistanis might hate India for the perceived injustices by the Hindus on the Indian Muslims. However, the Tajiks respect the territorial integrity of Pakistan. The rest which you are implying, that Masood was anti-Pakistan is nothing but conspiracy theory, and completely goes against the historical facts of the region.

Frankly, you don't even know the basic facts.

Just one example here. Please try to keep current on these issues if you really want to discuss them.

Afghan opposition leader Ahmad Shah Masood made an impassioned plea on Wednesday for foreign aid in his war against the Taliban and called for diplomatic pressure against Taliban's backers in Pakistan.

"Faced with the aggression of Pakistan, I give myself the right ... to seek aid everywhere," Mr Masood told a packed press conference here after a closed-door meeting with French Foreign Minister Hubert Vedrine.

"What happened to the British (in the 19th century) and the Soviet Red Army will also happen to Pakistan," Mr Masood said.

Mr Masood is on his first visit to Europe and on a rare foray from his bases in the snow-capped mountains of northeastern Afghanistan. During the 1980s, his battle against Soviet occupation earned him the title of "Lion of the Panjshir".

He received a hero's welcome from Afghan opposition supporters cheering loudly as he entered the news conference.

"Any help that countries can give us for reconquering our country, we need it," added the now-struggling commander, who has suffered a wave of setbacks but remains the sole serious obstacle to the Taliban's full control of Afghanistan.

Accusing the Taliban of being directly propped up by Pakistan and Osama bin Laden, Mr Masood also warned the United States that "there will be no end to the current problems, which will only get worse" unless his fortunes were reversed.

"To end the war, the international community must place strong pressure on Pakistan. This is what I raised with Mr Vedrine and what I will raise in all my meetings here," said Mr Masood.

After Mr Vedrine's one-hour meeting with Mr Masood, the French foreign ministry issued a brief statement saying the current military and humanitarian situation in Afghanistan had been discussed, but no further details were given.

Sources close to Mr Masood said the meeting with Mr Vedrine was "very positive", but declined to comment openly on whether subjects such as military or financial aid were broached.

"The decision (on aid) rests with European deputies," a confident Mr Masood told the lively press conference in a plush Paris hotel.

But the visit has been seen as a sign that the gloves have come off in Europe's diplomatic struggle with the Taliban, who have drawn global condemnation for their denial of women's rights and more recently their destruction of Afghanistan's ancient Buddhist statues in Bamiyan.

The president of the European Parliament, Nicole Fontaine, who has invited Mr Masood to address the body on Thursday, also issued a call for European powers to provide more concrete support to the anti-Taliban movement.

"It is important that France shows its support to the fight of those who, in Afghanistan, are opposing the fanatical Taliban regime," Mr Fontaine said.

Mr Masood, a 49-year-old ethnic Tajik, is the vice-president and defence minister of the United Nations-recognized 'Islamic State of Afghanistan', but his forces wield control over just 10 per cent of Afghan soil.

Mr Masood also met president of the national assembly, Socialist Raymond Forni, but officials confirmed he would not be meeting with President Jacques Chirac.

Speaking in his native Dari and wearing his trademark wool hat, Mr Masood presented himself as a moderate Islamist keen to restore democracy and women's rights - even if he is seen as having failed on these during his shaky tenure in power from 1992 to 1996.

He insisted that his alliance with other anti-Taliban factions was back on track after years of internecine fighting that aided the Taliban's conquest of the country, and pledged a wave of uprisings against the Taliban rule

Ahmad Shah Masood calls for International help against Pakistan

 

[Vinod2070]

These are nothing but conspiracy theories, and there is nothing to support these claims. It goes against the historical facts of the region. If Pakistan had supported the Taliban, then why did it not orchestrate the killing of Taliban's competing rival Gulbideen Hekmetyar, and other non-Taliban people it supported at that time? It is preposterous to even suggest Pakistan created the Taliban. Pakistan and the USA created the Mujahideen, the Taliban forming was a natural process, an off-shoot of the Mujahideen. At one time, Mullah Umar, Hekmetyar, Haqqani, Ahmed Shah Masood were fighting on the same side. They kicked out the Soviets, became greedy for power, and fought against each other. That's the simple truth free from conspiracy theories. Pakistan couldn't care less as to what was happening in Afghanistan.

It is obvious and you are denying the obvious.

OK, just check this with some knowledgeable Pakistanis you trust or with Ahmed if you prefer.

 

[KS]

^^^ This guys does not even know that it was Masood who requested Indian Govt to open a Military hospital in Northern Afg. and was so anti-Pakistan for its support for the Talibunnies.

 

[53fd]

Wrong - Hekmatyar was the favourite poster boy of the ISI during the Afghan war.

Hekmetyar and Masood both were favorite poster boys of Pakistan. I don't see where I objected that Hekmetyar was not the favorite of Pakistan. I said Masood was almost equally well liked.

I don't think you understand a few things. I think its extremely stupid for Indians and other Pakistanis to believe in this simplified generalization that people have in their minds, that Pakistan supports the Taliban because they are Pashtuns, and India supports the Northern Alliance because they are non-Pashtuns. This is completely false. It's exactly the same thing as saying Al-Qaeda & Taliban are the same thing. They're not.

Pakistan supported the anti-Communists, which included Ahmed Shah Masood (Tajik, non-Pashtun), Hekmetyar (Pashtun) etc. India did not support the Northern Alliance, India was in favor of a Najibullah (Soviet backed communist, Pashtun nationalist) and Dostum (Uzbek, non-Pashtun communist). It does not have anything to do with Pashtuns, non-Pashtun.

After that; Pakistan didn't give a crap about Afghanistan or Afghanis. Masood, Hekmetyar, Mullah Umar went their own ways. They fought for power, and one of them got it. Simple. All other things you mention are mere speculation and a figment of your imagination.