BBC Country Rating Poll

[Roybot]

What conclusive proof do you have that Pakistan supports terrorists? Btw, which specific terrorist groups does Pakistan support, & what conclusive evidence (this does not include studies or reports done by foreign think thanks done on their mere speculation) do you have supporting your argument? Please share that irrefutable, conclusive evidence. Also remember, just because the Pakistani Army refuses to take action against a group does NOT mean it is supporting it. The Pakistani Army has been overstretched in Swat & South Waziristan. In fact, most of the cross-border infiltration going from Afghanistan into Pakistan than vice versa. There has been more cross border infiltration from the Afghan provinces of Kunar, Nangarhar & Khost into Pakistan than the vice versa. There have been more casualties of Pakistani soldiers in Pakistan than US soldiers in Afghanistan, & more Al-Qaeda/Taliban captures in Pakistan than in Afghanistan.

Want to talk facts? There are over a 1000 checkposts of the Pakistani side of the border to stop cross-border infiltration, and only 200 checkposts on the Afghan side.

Jayron, roy-gourav or any of their defenders, please respond to Post # 430 please. Thanks

We are no military analysts here now are we? If the NATO and ISAF is saying that Afghan Talibans are hiding in Pakistan, then thats what we ll believe. Now are they hiding with the knowledge of Pakistanis establishments? Well I would say they are, either that or the"1000" Pakistani check posts on the border is a joke. I would like to see the source for that 1000 checkposts btw?

Also I find it hard to believe that one of the worlds largest armed forces is overstretched battling couple of thousands of cave dwelling gun trotting talibs, in their own country. Pakistan never wanted to fight the Taliban. It is fighting them now cause it was threatened by the Americans to do so, and is getting paid in return for that.

If Pakistan never had issues with Talibans before the American invasion, you think the NATO and the whole world is fool enough to buy that Pakistan will keep fighting against the Talibans, after their withdrawal from Afghanistan?

P.S: This is no instant messenger, so don't expect instant replies from everyone

 

[jayron]

What conclusive proof do you have that Pakistan supports terrorists? Btw, which specific terrorist groups does Pakistan support, & what conclusive evidence (this does not include studies or reports done by foreign think thanks done on their mere speculation) do you have supporting your argument? Please share that irrefutable, conclusive evidence. Also remember, just because the Pakistani Army refuses to take action against a group in North Waziristan does NOT mean it is supporting it. The Pakistani Army has been overstretched in Swat & South Waziristan. In fact, most of the cross-border infiltration going from Afghanistan into Pakistan than vice versa. Want to talk facts? There has been more cross border infiltration from the Afghan provinces of Kunar, Nangarhar & Khost into Pakistan than the vice versa. There have been more casualties of Pakistani soldiers in Pakistan than US soldiers in Afghanistan, & more Al-Qaeda/Taliban captures in Pakistan than in Afghanistan.

Want to talk more facts? There are over a 1000 checkposts of the Pakistani side of the border to stop cross-border infiltration, and only 200 checkposts on the Afghan side.

1. ISI people sharing stages with with known terrorists belonging to banned groups. I am talking about Hamid Gul whome your country men hail as a hero and Hafiz Saeed of LeT.
2. Mushraff accepting Pakistan supports Kashmiri Mujahideen.
3. NUMEROUS articles, opinion pieces, by reputed Pakistani news sites supporting the claim.
4. Free movement , fund collection and meetings of banned groups.
5. Your army having deals with TTP for peace and posing with them for camera.
6. Your army supporting Afghan Taliban is a known secret.

 

[53fd]

1000 checkposts:

The Afghan-Pakistan Solution | APML
http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...plan-haunts-india-pakistan-peace-roadmap.html

The NATO & ISAF have their own agenda in Afghanistan. They kill 64 civilians in Afghans, kill Afghan soldiers; and more of that stuff. I can post you video links of how Afghans view the Afghan Taliban more favorably than the NATO & ISAF, the latter who they see as foreign invaders and occupiers.

Do you have any idea how many people the Pakistani Army is currently engaged with? Pakistan is currently engaged in the Mohmand, Orakzai, Kurrum, South Waziristan agencies. It's thousands and thousands of people they are fighting against. The Pakistani Army is not nearly the size of India's, its about a million soldiers. It's not like India that can deploy 700 million soldiers in the Kashmir Valley, and still have more to fight the insurgents in Chattisgarh and in other parts of India.

 

[53fd]

I would like to see the source for that 1000 checkposts btw?

I gave you the two links ^^^, open them

 

[53fd]

Pakistan never wanted to fight the Taliban. It is fighting them now cause it was threatened by the Americans to do so, and is getting paid in return for that.

Pakistan has fought with more Taliban in Pakistan than the US has in Afghanistan. There have been more Taliban arrests on the Pakistani side than in Afghanistan. More Pakistani soldiers have been killed fighting the Taliban, and less US soldiers killed. So please cut the crap.

If Pakistan never had issues with Talibans before the American invasion, you think the NATO and the whole world is fool enough to buy that Pakistan will keep fighting against the Talibans, after their withdrawal from Afghanistan?

The Afghan Taliban is of no concern to Pakistan. Pakistan does not aid/abet them or support them in any kind of way, or even care about them, neither has it done so in the past. They are ethnic Afghans, they can do whatever they want in Afghanistan, it is none of Pakistan's concern. Pakistan will always fight the TTP that threaten the integrity of the country.

 

[Vinod2070]

The Afghan Taliban is of no concern to Pakistan. Pakistan does not aid or abet them, or care about them, neither has it done so in the past.

You know who is credited with creating the Taliban? It is Naseerullah Babar! Read about him.

Read the book "Taliban" by your Rasheed Ahmed for a start. You are wrong.

Taliban was a Pakistani creation.

 

[53fd]

Read the book "Taliban" by your Rasheed Ahmed for a start. You are wrong.

First of all, it's Ahmed Rashid, not Rasheed Ahmed. Secondly, Ahmed Rashid is free to express his personal opinions, as is Arundhati Roy about Maoists in India. Doesn't mean whatever they say are irrefutable facts. And btw, you are mixing up the Taliban with the Mujahideen during the Cold War. You probably don't even know the difference between them, or the co-relation between them. So please, learn some more about them and then come back.

 

[53fd]

1. ISI people sharing stages with with known terrorists belonging to banned groups. I am talking about Hamid Gul whome your country men hail as a hero and Hafiz Saeed of LeT.
2. Mushraff accepting Pakistan supports Kashmiri Mujahideen.
3. NUMEROUS articles, opinion pieces, by reputed Pakistani news sites supporting the claim.
4. Free movement , fund collection and meetings of banned groups.
5. Your army having deals with TTP for peace and posing with them for camera.
6. Your army supporting Afghan Taliban is a known secret.

You didn't provide any proof though, only conjecture and mere speculation by international & domestic thinktanks & journalists. Doesn't mean it's true for jack.

 

[Vinod2070]

Ahmed Rashid is free to express his personal opinions, as is Arundhati Roy about Maoists in India.

He is a security analyst who spends his life on these issue. He has the sort of contacts in the security establishment that you and I can't.

Its not personal opinion and it is a result of deep study and comes from several sources.

Doesn't mean whatever they say are irrefutable facts. And btw, you are mixing up the Taliban with the Mujahideen during the Cold War. You probably don't even know the difference between them, or the co-relation between them. So please, learn some more about them and then come back.

I am talking of the Afghan Taliban that was formed after the Afghan war was over. I gave you the name of the Pakistani army man who is credited with created them.

Read about him.

 

[53fd]

He is a security analyst who spends his life on these issue. He has the sort of contacts in the security establishment that you and I can't.

Its not personal opinion and it is a result of deep study and comes from several sources.



I am talking of the Afghan Taliban that was formed after the Afghan war was over. I gave you the name of the Pakistani army man who is credited with created them.

Read about him.

Oh, I have read about him, and I know about him well enough. It is pure speculation that he created the Taliban. What you don't understand is that not one person has been responsible for the creation of the Taliban. The Taliban was an off-shoot of the Mujahideen. It's leaders; Haqqani, Mullah Umar etc were all part of the Mujahideen that fought the Soviets. The CIA and the ISI assembled and created the Mujahideen to fight the Soviets. Some fighters in the Mujahideen split up after the Mujahideen won: Hekmatyar formed his Gulbudeen group, Ahmed Shah Masood the Northern Alliance, Mullah Umar formed the Afghan Taliban etc.

If Pakistan formed the Taliban, why would they support Hekmetyar (non-Taliban) and Masood (Northern Alliance) against the Pashtun leader Najibullah? That's why I'm saying, what Rashid says is pure speculation. That's equivalent to a 9/11 truther saying the 9/11 attacks were a false flag operation. I can quote you Alex Jones and Webster Harpley as proofs that 9/11 was an inside job.

 

[Roybot]

I gave you the two links ^^^, open them

Fair enough Mr Musharaff claimed it in one of his blogs. Not sure if I can take that as an official source, since he's neither the president anymore nor the army chief. He doesn't even live in Pakistan.

Pakistan has fought with more Taliban in Pakistan than the US has in Afghanistan. There have been more Taliban arrests on the Pakistani side than in Afghanistan. More Pakistani soldiers have been killed fighting the Taliban, and less US soldiers killed. So please cut the crap.

Its not about if Pakistan has fought more with Taliban or not. Pakistani army offensive against the Talibans only began, after these terrorists started striking inside Pakistan. If Pakistani army had joined in the effort and sealed its border from day 1 of the invasion, then world would think that Pakistan is sincere, willingly or not, thats another issue.

The Afghan Taliban is of no concern to Pakistan. Pakistan does not aid/abet them or support them in any kind of way, or even care about them, neither has it done so in the past. They are ethnic Afghans, they can do whatever they want in Afghanistan, it is none of Pakistan's concern. Pakistan will always fight the TTP that threaten the integrity of the country.

Thats what you claim, but according to NATO the Afghan Taliban is hiding in Pakistan, and the moment ISAF withdraws Taliban will go back to Afghanistan and it will be back to square one. Pakistan needs to be sincere in its effort, support the ISAF and not just just target the unfavorable taliban. Do that for a couple of years and this menace will be all over and NATO forces will withdraw.


Look mate I understand where you are coming from though. If the same thing was happening in India I would probably get carried away with emotions and not think rationally. But try and hear out what the other side has to say as well, and see if it makes sense

 

[53fd]

Thats what you claim, but according to NATO the Afghan Taliban is hiding in Pakistan, and the moment ISAF withdraws Taliban will go back to Afghanistan and it will be back to square one. Pakistan needs to be sincere in its effort, support the ISAF and not just just target the unfavorable taliban. Do that for a couple of years and this menace will be all over and NATO forces will withdraw.

There is no doubt that there are some fighters of the Afghan Taliban hiding in the FATA regions of Pakistan. If you understand the FATA regions of Pakistan, you would understand that Pakistani Law does not apply in the Tribal Areas. Tribal Code or Pashtunwali applies there, and one of its tenants is hospitality of the utmost extreme. When the Afghan Taliban crossed from Afghanistan into FATA Pakistan, they met with their fellow Pakhtun people, and lived in the FATA regions of Pakistan as guests. The Afghan Taliban does not pose any threat to Pakistan, so Pakistan does not attack them. Neither does the Pakistani Army aid and safeguard them, Pashtunwali safeguards the Afghan Taliban. Pakistan does not see any reason to start a war against the Afghan Taliban, especially when it means Pashtunwali being brought into question.

 

[Vinod2070]

Oh, I have read about him, and I know about him well enough. It is pure speculation that he created the Taliban. What you don't understand is that not one person has been responsible for the creation of the Taliban.

He was one of the main persons responsible. It is generally agreed by most.

The Taliban was an off-shoot of the Mujahideen. It's leaders; Haqqani, Mullah Umar etc were all part of the Mujahideen that fought the Soviets. The CIA and the ISI assembled and created the Mujahideen to fight the Soviets. Some fighters in the Mujahideen split up after the Mujahideen won: Hekmatyar formed his Gulbudeen group, Ahmed Shah Masood the Northern Alliance, Mullah Umar formed the Afghan Taliban etc.

Yes, the Afghan rebels started murdering each other and the Afghan civilians after the Soviets left. There was no CIA or any Americans or outsiders in the picture after that. It was only Pakistan which was still meddling in Afghan affairs.

Mullah Omar created his Taliban from the Madressas in the tribal areas of Pakistan. It is common knowledge. No point in denying the obvious.

Most of the Taliban were fresh Madressa grads. They had never fought the Taliban, though some leaders may have had that background. It was also almost a pure Pushtun group unlike the earlier rebels who came from all ethnicities of Afghanistan.

Also, Pakistani army regulars and military advisers played a big part in the quick victories of the Taliban. That is the reason the other ethnic groups blame Pakistan for all the genocides that the Taliban perpetrated and all the other atrocities.

This has been well documented by many writers including several Pakistanis. Several Pakistani serving military people were airlifted from Konduz during the Afghan war.

You may dismiss everything if you want. If you are serious, you can't. You may not get a smoking gun if that is what you are trying to insist.

f Pakistan formed the Taliban, why would they support Hekmetyar and Masood (non-Taliban) against the Pashtun leader Najibullah?

Now, you seriously want me to answer this?

 

[53fd]

If Pakistani army had joined in the effort and sealed its border from day 1 of the invasion, then world would think that Pakistan is sincere, willingly or not, thats another issue.

This is false. Pakistan has always been willing to seal the border with Afghanistan, Afghanistan hasn't. Afghanistan has always created separatist movements in Pakistan's KPK and FATA because it does not regard the Durand Line as valid. Najibullah, Karzai, Zahir Shah and other Afghan Pashtun nationalist leaders have always tried to separate Pakistan's KPK and FATA for a Pashtunistan or Greater Afghanistan. Karzai claimed the Durand Line as invalid, unacceptable, and something that separated Pashtun brothers on both sides of the border.

Pakistan has always offered to seal the border since day 1, but Karzai and his predecessors have always refused Pakistan's offer. Pakistan has more Pashtuns (28 million Pashtuns) than Afghanistan (12 million Pashtuns) does (& Pashtuns are the biggest ethnic group in Pakistan). Yet, there are always movements coming out of Afghanistan into Pakistan for Pashtunistan, not the other way round.

Pakistan deploys troops to seal Afghan border:

http://agonist.org/story/2004/8/23/222451/090

 

[53fd]

He was one of the main persons responsible. It is generally agreed by most.

Who are these most? It has not been accepted by anyone but Ahmed Rashid and his fanboys. Pakistan created the Mujahideen with the money of the CIA and ideological help from Saudi Arabia. The off-shoot of the Mujahideen is the Taliban. The Mujahideen were formed in the time of the Cold War, the Taliban were formed in 1996. Pakistan supported the non-Taliban groups such as Hekmetyar and Ahmed Shah Masood (Northern Alliance) at that time against Najibullah, so how could it have created the Taliban?

Yes, the Afghan rebels started murdering each other and the Afghan civilians after the Soviets left. There was no CIA or any Americans or outsiders in the picture after that. It was only Pakistan which was still meddling in Afghan affairs.

Pakistan has never meddled in the Afghan affairs. The Afghan Taliban mean nothing to Pakistan. They are ethnic Afghan Pashtuns, and they can do what they please in Afghanistan. Pakistan meddling in Afghan affairs would mean Pakistan sending in troops in Afghanistan without Afghanistan knowing, like India sent troops in East Pakistan, or the US sending in troops in Afghanistan post 2001.

This has been well documented by many writers including several Pakistanis. Several Pakistani serving military people were airlifted from Konduz during the Afghan war.

Writers/journalists are free to believe whatever they want: Arundhati Roy, Webster Tarpley & Ahmed Rashid are free to believe whatever they want. You have not given me one piece of evidence to indict the ISI or Pakistan.