BATTLE OF BATAPUR 6 SEPTEMBER1965 -THE DEFENCE OF LAHORE

[John Reese]

The only thing is funny is how you deny the truth.

W
When does Pakistani version of history considered as truth by World

 

[CHI RULES]

Right. Really? You say? Okay gather all staff officers above rank of brigadier and sack them. Then give them jobs as shopping mall guards or maybe, just maybe if they can cut it, bank security guards.

Launch overhul of officer training acadamies in particular staff courses. Review officer promotions above colonel rank in particular emphasis on merit based promotions.

Above all aim to nuture visionary leadership who are able to visualize further than the end of their noses.

Ps. Non of this was done. No lessons were learnt from this debacle. Fools are given to making same mistakes again and again. We saw that with General Musharaf proving his dumbness in Kargil 1999. Instead of being busted to security guard he went on to become Generalissimo and then messed up Afghanistan in 2001 from which Pakistan has still not recovered.

Keeping personal hatred aside Gen Musharaf was quite capable soldier had all required skills/qualifications to become COAS. Musharaf was officially acknowledged for his bravery during 1971 war in Bangladesh.The armed forces are well trained as per available resources and their promotion criteria is most transparent as compared to other institutions of Pak.

Only a dumb person can call Musharaf as security guard or something. Kargil was not a blunder but a brilliant effort however remained fruitless due to inability of our so called Muslim brotherly countries to help us or our allies like USA who have ditched us on every occasion. Mr Nawaz Sharif was the person who jeopardize the whole effort and unable to provide Pak view on Intl forums.

Yes he was a pro western just like Zia was pro Saudi, a person may have own views. Similarly what steps taken by Musharaf which we see as Anti Pak were taken to save the country as we could n't face USA at that time nor now.

I am surprised to see a purely defense related forum being used by people to show their own griefs against PA. You are PDF think tank consultant don;t behave like a child. Further I advise you to do some research on PA promotion criteria and Musharaf's qualifications. You are perhaps living in UK may see Pak cadets performing well there in Military academies. PA has established lot of institutions along with modernization of already established institutions. To name some of them are NUST, NUML, NDU along with modernization of PMA and staff college.

I hope you will reply me literally instead of using derogatory remarks.

 

[AUz]

Lahore still has boards like these? In Gurumukhi and Hindi?

No. Not a single one..

Why you asked though?

 

[Signalian]

Not surprised that wikipedia wants to delete the article of Battle of Batapur

Probably a Pakistani single regiment chewing up an Indian brigade attack supported by its divisional strength support elements including armour and artillery is hard to swallow.

and plus the battle shows retreat of GOC Niranjan Prasad leaving behind jeep, documents etc.

http://deletedwikipedia.gawker-labs.com/wiki/Battle_of_Batapur

Maybe a reliable Indian source could be used, but if its reliable, how can it glorify India on wikipedia on this instance. Afterall, Indian blogs are even accepted as external references, whether they work or not is another issue.

 

[Kambojaric]

Not surprised that wikipedia wants to delete the article of Battle of Batapur

Probably a Pakistani single regiment chewing up an Indian brigade attack supported by its divisional strength support elements including armour and artillery is hard to swallow.

and plus the battle shows retreat of GOC Niranjan Prasad leaving behind jeep, documents etc.

http://deletedwikipedia.gawker-labs.com/wiki/Battle_of_Batapur

Maybe a reliable Indian source could be used, but if its reliable, how can it glorify India on wikipedia on this instance. Afterall, Indian blogs are even accepted as external references, whether they work or not is another issue.

What a disgrace. Will start looking for some references. Found a decent book by LSE PhD Farooq Bajwa on this battle. Will update later today.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

quite capable soldier had all required skills/qualifications to become COAS.

I beg to differ.

his bravery during 1971 war in Bangladesh

Bravery at tactical level and skills to lead as COAS are not by definition the same.

armed forces are well trained

They indeed are - however there is now well established record of weakness in high command going back to 1965,1971,1999 and 2001.

Kargil was not a blunder

It was a blunder. Monumental failure - best described as tactical genius but strategic naivete.

brilliant effort however remained fruitless due to inability of our so called Muslim brotherly countries to help us or our allies like USA who have ditched us on every occasion

Good leadership involves looking at all the variables, assessing all those variables and planning accordingly. Now which one of these variables were unknowns before Kargil?

(i) Muslim brotherly countries - It is well recorded fact that when Pakistan has gone to war there is only one country which faces the enemy - Pakistan itself. Even children know this.

(ii) USA - again we have 5 decades of history to know what US does. First time in 1965 Pak might have had excuse but by 1999 ignorance is unforgivable.

So, it would be plain even to a bank security guard that if Pak got into trouble - both USA and the ummah would ditch Pak like dirty linen. For General Musharaf to not have this accounted for in his planning makes Musharaf a "nobhead". This failure of strategic vision is no less than Operation Grad Slam's failure to make provisions for Indian counterattack at any point along the border including Lahore. This exposed lack of strategic foresight on part of PA.

The sad fact is Pak Army has not produced any Guderian, Rommel, Von Monteuffel, Napolean. Fortunately neither has India. This points to culture of promoting "yes men" into higher positions of command. The system weeds out those who show bright sparks of initiative leaving only those who at best are able to execute a assault and takeover of PTV and Prime Minister House in Islamabad.

This is the harsh reality. And don't think I have anything against Pak Army. My extended family have had long history going back to British times serving in the ranks and later as officers.

 

[CHI RULES]

I beg to differ.


Bravery at tactical level and skills to lead as COAS are not by definition the same.


They indeed are - however there is now well established record of weakness in high command going back to 1965,1971,1999 and 2001.


It was a blunder. Monumental failure - best described as tactical genius but strategic naivete.


Good leadership involves looking at all the variables, assessing all those variables and planning accordingly. Now which one of these variables were unknowns before Kargil?

(i) Muslim brotherly countries - It is well recorded fact that when Pakistan has gone to war there is only one country which faces the enemy - Pakistan itself. Even children know this.

(ii) USA - again we have 5 decades of history to know what US does. First time in 1965 Pak might have had excuse but by 1999 ignorance is unforgivable.

So, it would be plain even to a bank security guard that if Pak got into trouble - both USA and the ummah would ditch Pak like dirty linen. For General Musharaf to not have this accounted for in his planning makes Musharaf a "nobhead". This failure of strategic vision is no less than Operation Grad Slam's failure to make provisions for Indian counterattack at any point along the border including Lahore. This exposedlack of strategic foresight.

The sad fact is Pak Army has not produced any Guderian, Rommel, Von Monteuffel, Napolean. Fortunately neither has India. This points to culture of promoting "yes men" into higher positions of command. The system weeds out those who show bright sparks of initiative leaving only those who at best are able to execute a assault and takeover of PTV and Prime Minister House in Islamabad.

This is the harsh reality. And don't think I have anything against Pak Army. My extended family have had long history going back to British times serving in the ranks and later as officers.

From history we learn that bravery is the first characteristic of a soldier from down to top. On the other hand I was big supporter of Nawaz Sharif in old days but unfortunately his tilt towards India brought me opposite to him.
Let me clear you that I personally don't like Musharaf and his ideology yet I consider him quite fir to be COAS as per standards set by Army.

Thanks for detailed reply yet U have n't done any research on Armed forces promotion criteria and Musharaf's back ground.

On the other hand it is a big lie that Nawaz Sharif didn't know about Kargil plans, further I have recent examples where Nawaz Sharif acted strangely.

1. During recent past aggression of India on Sialkot- Narowal border we lost reportedly 20-30 civilians yet no action taken on part of Nawaz Sharif or defense minister.
2. On matter of Kalbhoshan Yadev no appropirate action taken by Pak Govt and matter was not taken up seriously with Iran as Iran has threatned Pakistan many times of hot persuits and even their forces involved in acts of aggression against Pak FC which resulted in loss of few FC personnel.
3. We have recently lost a Major on Afghan border still no appropriate action taken.
4. Pak inability to get subsidised F16s from USA is also inability of Pak Gov for not having any proper Fm.

Nawaz Sahrif still not serious to raise Kashmir issue even hundreds of Kashmirs have shed their lives , and now first time Kashmiris openly calling Pak for help.

If we know that no one will support our just cause than we should not take stand than we have no right to be called a nation or to exist.

 

[Hamza913]

W
When does Pakistani version of history considered as truth by World

It's not just Pakistani, it's well acknowledged fact that India struggles to defeat a nation so much smaller than itself.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

any research on Armed forces promotion criteria

No, I have not and I never claimed I did. There is only one measure in my book. Stark but real. Re-sults. I am not a medical man, I am not a accountant, I am not a builder. but if the patient dies, the businessman pays more tax, the building falls down. What does that say? Re-sults?

Nawaz Sharif didn't know about Kargil plans

I am not interested in the politics of this - whether Nawaz knew or not knew. That debate will go on for eternity with both sides chucking mud at each other. I care not crap about both.

I do care though about the ordinary "grunt" who never came back to his family or people like Capt. Sher Khan who died fighting for what? Even if they had managed to hold off the Indian's and blocked off the supply route to Ladakh what would have happened? Another repeat of 1965. A massive Indian attack on the Lahore front. Replay of history?

I mean tell me - mother of god. sorry don't tell me. Tell to the mothers of the dead men why they did not get any support from Pakistan Airforce? Where the hell was PAF? Tell me why infantrymen, brave infantrymen were on top of hills without any air support?

Which animal would send his men to battle without air support? It is abc of modeern warfare that you need air suppport. What would you say to the mothers of the dead if they asked you:-

1. Why my son had no air support?
2. Why my son had no artillery support?
3. Why my son had deficiency of supplies?

I could not possibly look at those mothers and answer without dropping my head in shame. Think about that? Whose fault was that? COAS? The PM? The Chief Justice? The IG of Police?

And please don't talk like I am supporter of Nawaz.

 

[John Reese]

It's not just Pakistani, it's well acknowledged fact that India struggles to defeat a nation so much smaller than itself.

Well the trophy of that is still flourishing over our Eastern side

 

[Hamza913]

Well the trophy of that is still flourishing over our Eastern side

Our trophy is still flourishing from 1947. It's an even better trophy since Indians ironically celebrate the day and we actually own it, unlike your "trophy" (which was also much smaller).

 

[John Reese]

Our trophy is still flourishing from 1947. It's an even better trophy since Indians ironically celebrate the day and we actually own it, unlike your "trophy" (which was also much smaller).

flourishing
Terroritory I though your diplomats never stop crying in front of UN that your nation
Victim of terrorism every year

 

[senses]

What a disgrace. Will start looking for some references. Found a decent book by LSE PhD Farooq Bajwa on this battle. Will update later today.

Please do update, would be really good to know about my family unit

 

[livingdead]

Keeping personal hatred aside Gen Musharaf was quite capable soldier had all required skills/qualifications to become COAS. Musharaf was officially acknowledged for his bravery during 1971 war in Bangladesh.The armed forces are well trained as per available resources and their promotion criteria is most transparent as compared to other institutions of Pak.

Only a dumb person can call Musharaf as security guard or something. Kargil was not a blunder but a brilliant effort however remained fruitless due to inability of our so called Muslim brotherly countries to help us or our allies like USA who have ditched us on every occasion. Mr Nawaz Sharif was the person who jeopardize the whole effort and unable to provide Pak view on Intl forums.

Yes he was a pro western just like Zia was pro Saudi, a person may have own views. Similarly what steps taken by Musharaf which we see as Anti Pak were taken to save the country as we could n't face USA at that time nor now.

I am surprised to see a purely defense related forum being used by people to show their own griefs against PA. You are PDF think tank consultant don;t behave like a child. Further I advise you to do some research on PA promotion criteria and Musharaf's qualifications. You are perhaps living in UK may see Pak cadets performing well there in Military academies. PA has established lot of institutions along with modernization of already established institutions. To name some of them are NUST, NUML, NDU along with modernization of PMA and staff college.

I hope you will reply me literally instead of using derogatory remarks.

kargil was brilliant move by musharaf... and 65 was also a good move... both could not achieve the objective... but failure should not mean the idea was wrong/stupid..

 

[Kambojaric]

From Kutch to Tashkent: The Indo-Pakistan War of 1965, By Farooq Bajwa
Page 171-172
__________________________________________________________________________

Operation Riddle began on schedule at 0330 hours with a thrust along the Grand Trunk Road at Atari-Wagah border to Lahore. This was led by 15 Infantry Division under General Niranjan Prasad, who planned the attack in two phases. In the first phase, 54 Infantry Brigade with three infantry battalions, the 3 Jat, the 15 Dogra and the 13 Punjab, under Brigadier Rikh led the assault.

54 Infantry Brigade overwhelmed the paramilitary Pakistan Rangers unit at the village of Dial with some ease and advanced to the village of Dograi. This village was five miles from the border and ten miles from the centre of Lahore, and was the first target of Riddle west of the BRBD Canal. There is no doubt that the attack took the Pakistan 10 Division by surprise; the British High Commissioner said 'the Pakistanis were taken by surprise, their troops had not been alerted and were asleep in their barracks' (James, 136). Some of the first panicked reports recieved from the Pakistani troops at the border expressed hope that the fighting was nothing more than nervous Indian troops opening fire. (Ahmed, 166). Pakistani troops on the east side of the BRBD Canal were quickly overwhelmed by the large oncoming Indian force and the Pakistani troops fell back behind the canal.

At 0700 hours the PAF made its first major air attack of the war by attacking Indian troops near Wagah, which not only caused losses to the Indian side in men and equipment but also slowed the Indian attack down by an estimated two hours.The PAF was able to operate with relative freedom and its bombing resulted not only in ammunition losses for the Indian troops, the 3 Jat regiment also lost its second-command and heavy guns and mortars (Chakravorty, 148). The PAF intervention bought invaluable time for General Sarfraz to rush troops to the front and the Indian advance was further slowed by 3 Baluch Regiment which fought hard along the BRBD Canal. The Indian battalion leading the attack, 3 Jat, had only personal weapons and no armoured support. Even more dangerously the Indian battalion, was now outside the range of its own artillery protection which was therefore unable to provide supporting fire. The battalions of 3 Jat and 13 Punjab advanced under Pakistani air and artillery attacks and managed to get within 500 yards of the railway bridge over the BRBD Canal by 1030 hours, but were unable to move from the railway station area until 1400 hours that day. At 1420 hours 3 Jat was ordered to fall back to the village of Gosal Dial held by the 15 Dogra, as it was unable to advance and had used up most of its ammunition.

Harbaksh Singh was very dissapointed by the failure of 54 Infantry Brigade's commander to keep in contact with 3 Jat once it has reached the canal. He blamed Brigadier Rikh for not only losing contact with the advancing troops but also failing to maintain the pressure, and a 'brilliant success was allowed to slip away unexploited'. Brigadier Rikh also lost contact with his division's HQ, which seemed to be unaware of the exact location of the battalion and therefore ordered it to pull back to the village of Gosal Dial. In subsequent recriminations over the order to 3 Jat to withdraw, Rikh later said that the withdrawal was made with the permission of the GOC 15 Infantry, though this was denied by Prasad, but the argument was now academic as Riddle had lost its edge and momentum and was 'throwing away a cheap victory ... for want of aggressive and enterprising leadership' (H. Singh, 90=91). All India Radio and the BBC had broadcast news of the city of Lahore having fallen to the Indian offensive on the morning of 6 September; both reports were proved wrong and the morale of the civilian population of Lahore was reported to be excellent.

Fighting now focused on the Batapur Bridge, south of 3 Jat's field of operation, and one of the major canal bridges past Dograi. The Indian assault here was led by 13 Punjab and they got to within 500 yards of the railway bridge at around 1000 hours.

... (to be continued)