Bangladesh : The Asian Tiger Myth vs Reality

[Bengal71]

Someone: Hitler, why are you putting Jews in camps?
Hitler: wth this is 1940 ok!

where does this fascination for placing women in traditionally male fields come from? like seriously?

i'll probably agree some value is attached to women's medical background in the Bangladesh and Pakistani marriage market. but if that translates to very high salaries and stressful work, like it always is for a young doctor in the West, it's repelling rather than attractive to a male suitor. not sure why anyone would have a problem with a woman dropping out of the labor market to deliver and raise children, besides looking after husband.

in any case, a Muslim shouldn't measure their success on something that is not even aligned with their values. female empowerment/emancipation implies a concerted male effort to oppress women that goes against some of the basic tenets of Islam, and not to mention, the concepts of gender role reevaluation, and LGBT wrapped up in that. but all that warrants a whole different forum probably. anyways, just my two cents - the progress of a nation should be measured on how little it's affected by feminism


this is a distinction made in the composition of subcontinental Muslim society. ones with more foreign blood vs ones with more native blood. it's more for observing a happening phenomenon rather than initiating the phenomenon itself i.e. people classified themselves on those lines in social life, whether these terms were ever invented or not. since longer time has elapsed since those migrations, and because of intermixing, the classifications do not matter as much now. but, it might still be beneficial to learn our ancestries and it's connection to our collective behaviour and culture.

so nothing wrong using these. plus @Hakikat ve Hikmet is most probably is just critical your pro-India/anti-Pakistan stance and drawing parallels with an atrap class which historically often came from non-elite Hindu backgrounds and seen as lacking the refinement of either Persianized settlers from Central Asia or the Indo-Aryan Brahmins of the subcontinent.

Those distinctions are not relevant in Bengal because Bengal has a rather more open minded and intellectually oriented society. Just look at marriages within Bangladeshi Muslim society, nobody gives two hoots about who is Khan, who is Chowdhury and who is Syed when it comes to marriages, only thing they care about is education, socio/economic status, Job/career etc. However, that is not the case within the Muslim societies in the rest of subcontinent, specially in Pakistan.

Also, the Islamic caste system in the Indian subcontinent is more pronounced in the sense that "scholarly" edicts are available to justify such things like the works of Al Barrani. In the rest of the Islamic world it is also practiced in different ways, specially in Arabia whereby they live pretty much a segregated life vis a vis non-Arab Muslims, effectively subscribing to Arab supremacy. Examples are widespread in Saudi and other GCC countries.

That guy Abal Ve Ahammok has much more problems than you know. He was been writing a lot of trash about Bengal for a long time.

 

[Fledgingwings]

Comparison usually do not come here naturally unless you guys start trolling. In that case we do not have remain any other option other than to showing the mirror.

You always compare yourselves dude,troll or no troll and about the mirror.....well problem is you hold it the wrong way thats why what you get as reflection is what disgusts you.in other way yourself and its seriously no tr0ll

 

[Bilal9]

Someone: Hitler, why are you putting Jews in camps?
Hitler: wth this is 1940 ok!

where does this fascination for placing women in traditionally male fields come from? like seriously?

i'll probably agree some value is attached to women's medical background in the Bangladesh and Pakistani marriage market. but if that translates to very high salaries and stressful work, like it always is for a young doctor in the West, it's repelling rather than attractive to a male suitor. not sure why anyone would have a problem with a woman dropping out of the labor market to deliver and raise children, besides looking after husband.

in any case, a Muslim shouldn't measure their success on something that is not even aligned with their values. female empowerment/emancipation implies a concerted male effort to oppress women that goes against some of the basic tenets of Islam, and not to mention, the concepts of gender role reevaluation, and LGBT wrapped up in that. but all that warrants a whole different forum probably. anyways, just my two cents - the progress of a nation should be measured on how little it's affected by feminism


this is a distinction made in the composition of subcontinental Muslim society. ones with more foreign blood vs ones with more native blood. it's more for observing a happening phenomenon rather than initiating the phenomenon itself i.e. people classified themselves on those lines in social life, whether these terms were ever invented or not. since longer time has elapsed since those migrations, and because of intermixing, the classifications do not matter as much now. but, it might still be beneficial to learn our ancestries and it's connection to our collective behaviour and culture.

so nothing wrong using these. plus @Hakikat ve Hikmet is most probably is just critical your pro-India/anti-Pakistan stance and drawing parallels with an atrap class which historically often came from non-elite Hindu backgrounds and seen as lacking the refinement of either Persianized settlers from Central Asia or the Indo-Aryan Brahmins of the subcontinent.

Well the problem is that these female doctors mostly don't even register for service posts after graduation. So they are taking up precious space from legitimate doctors pursuing a working medical career.

Woman's pursuit of raising children has nothing to do with it.

There has been calls already about limiting female doctor enrollment in Pakistan.

I remember sometime ago, there was a requirement in Bangladesh that after MBBS graduation, students had to spend certain numbers of years serving in village outposts. Don't know if it is still valid.

 

[khair_ctg]

Those distinctions are not relevant in Bengal because Bengal has a rather more open minded and intellectually oriented society. Just look at marriages within Bangladeshi Muslim society, nobody gives two hoots about who is Khan, who is Chowdhury and who is Syed when it comes to marriages, only thing they care about is education, socio/economic status, Job/career etc. However, that is not the case within the Muslim societies in the rest of subcontinent, specially in Pakistan.

Also, the Islamic caste system in the Indian subcontinent is more pronounced in the sense that "scholarly" edicts are available to justify such things like the works of Al Barrani. In the rest of the Islamic world it is also practiced in different ways, specially in Arabia whereby they live pretty much a segregated life vis a vis non-Arab Muslims, effectively subscribing to Arab supremacy. Examples are widespread in Saudi and other GCC countries.

That guy Abal Ve Ahammok has much more problems than you know. He was been writing a lot of trash about Bengal for a long time.

long reply..

tbh i did not give two hoots about family background when i was a teenager. i thought about marrying a girl based on attractiveness, not even thinking much if she had the personality to make a good wife and mother. as i got older and more in tune with our culture, family background in marriage became more important. and i understood (and even grew to appreciate) why it was taken seriously in the mainstream.

Islamic edicts say preference for suitor in marriage can be among the following: attractiveness, wealth, lineage and piety. so you see lineage or pedigree is part of prophetic traditions and an acceptable part of Muslim practice. and since, superiority/inferiority cannot be based on race or color, it has to be based on piety/how noble they are/how much good character their family is, living or late. so lineage and piety are sometimes considered one.

keep in mind, the Bengal Muslim society began with Bakhtiyar Khilji and thus became part of the Ghurid dynasty capitaled in Delhi. historically, one's respectability in Bengal Muslim society has almost always been how much closer their origin was to the Arab peninsula. the atrap class would not necessarily have disadvantages in a society with ashraf, unless they showed significant resistance and reluctance to adopt ashraf mores, which they simply couldn't have to be taken seriously in society. but there has been more fluidity and mobility because of Islam not at all seen in a lot of other elite/civilized systems. even rulers that came in line of succession after Khilji legitimized themselves by how close or loyal they were to the Baghdad caliphate (khilafah).

there is no civilized society on the planet where this hasn't been the case and even by current societal measures, it was bound to be. for example, look at the Hindu society of the Brahmins and the different castes, the 'poshness' of Southern England vs Northern Areas and countless other measures of pedigree in England, and how Persian language and culture prevailed among disparate Turkic groups of Central Asia that established the Muslim society in Indian subcontinent.

Khan and Chowdhry as historic titles carried respect and would've still done so if they did not become so diluted at best, and generic at worst, with many people regardless of ancestry adopting these. however, learning a little about their past few generations (with good general knowledge of Bengal Muslim society since Khilji) can tell you whether a Khan or Chowdhury is "genuine" or not. there are many other family names and they do carry value in educated circles in Bangladesh's Muslim society.

a distinct feature in Bengal is the high number of Muslims not found in the historic Muslim heartlands of North India all the way up to Bihar and even West Bengal. that is attributed to the great number of pre-Islamic tribals and non-scheduled communities i.e. they were outside either Indo-Aryan society, or even a formal Hindu or Buddhist religious system. Same case in Punjab btw. historians have affirmed there is almost no location in East Bengal, in particular, that developed a majority-atrap Muslim population without rule and settlement of an ashraf class. another distinct feature is the British presence in Bengal longer than the areas to the west in the Indian subcontinent. the subjugation and disruption of organic local culture hve taken place over a longer time in Bengal.

even though the Indo-Aryan languages and dialects, especially among non-Muslims, change as you move from the Muslim political heartland of Delhi-West UP to Bengal, historically, distinction among Muslims over the same area has been less pronounced. there is no phenomenon that lead to things being somehow radically egalitarian, as you cross the border from Bihar to West Bengal and Bangladesh.

in spite of some unique phenomenons, the importance of pedigree and/or its attributes is still deep-rooted in Bangladesh, similar to North Indian and Pakistani Muslims, from a logical perspective and also from personal experience. not ashraf vs atrap kind of way, but in more subtle ways including subconscious ways. claims like this that Bangladesh is distinct in these ways is a recent tendency rooted in fantasies and Bengali Nationalism which itself is rooted in inaccuracies of our own history.

 

[bluesky]

The statement of @khair_ctg is correct in terms of history. But, many old traditions and customs changed during the long 190 years of British period. The Muslim Ashraf class (aristocrats) was invariably landed aristocrats who held political or administrative power in the government. These Ashraf families constituted the core of Bengali Muslim society that started with the administration of Bakhtiar Khilji. So, they were mostly foreign Muslim immigrants.

During a period from 1200 AD to 1757 AD, many dynasties collapsed or ousted and were taken over by new dynasties. The constitution of Ashraf class also changed with these ups and downs. A new dynasty would grant land titles to those who supported them in politics and many old families would be replaced as a result. The newer group would also be constituted mostly by immigrant Muslims.

As a result of these upheavals, many former Khandans would collapse down and would become a part of a little lower status families without political power. In a few generations, many of them would be forced to make a matrimonial relationship with other families who were not regarded as Ashraf and would lose their previous identities through a few generations.

This process of elevation to Ashraf class almost stopped after the advent of British rule. The new rulers completely eradicated the old Muslim families by taking away their privileges in land and administration. However, after the 1947 partition, a new group of aristocratic families started to appear. They were related to politics but were also to new money they acquired through business and trade. They did not receive any new land titles but many of them bought land with cash money.

This process of building new Khandans has been continuing after 1971. Previously, until 1757 the aristocrats mostly constituted of the immigrant families from Afghanistan and NW India. They held the absolute political power in those days. But, the new aristocrats are different. There are some whose ancestors were once foreign Muslim immigrants, but most have nothing to do with these old families because most of the former aristocrats have already been assimilated with the local non-Ashraf families and gradually lost their identities.

So, in the current context, a new definition of aristocracy is being built up gradually which is quite different from the old ones. Matrimonial relationships are being formed among those who are educated and have money, business, land and political power.

This is the new Ashraf families who cannot be identified with the old immigrant Muslims anymore. However, many tend to claim themselves to belong to the old Ashraf group.

 

[Bilal9]

That guy Abal Ve Ahammok has much more problems than you know.

That is funny! 'Abal Ve Ahammok'.