Bangladesh alone can’t take Rohingya responsibilities: Dhaka tells UK

[Avicenna]

A strong foreign policy can be pursued if a country is militarily strong and is run by civilian people with mutually trusting relationship with military. Irrespective of military strength, BD military and civilian politicians do not trust each other. Hasina does not want a situation whereby military comes to the fore.

In 2008, General Moeen sent naval ships to the Sea where MM was digging for oil/gas. MM navy broke the drilling rigs and went back within a few days. Now, why MM can send millions of refugees to BD? It is because it has correctly read the pulse of Hasina and gong. This gong does not want the military to come to the fore and takes credit. It is rather willing to shame the country only to sit in power in Dhaka.

No amount of big weapons will change the kowtowing nature of our BAL political group. Begum Zia did not care for military to come in a 2001 Naaf Dariya confrontation with MM because she belongs to a military family. On the contrary, Hasina's family members were killed by the military and so she does not trust the military.

Now, we can see another Mir Zafar Ali Khan clad in Sari and Hijab!!

I have to praise your independent thought and analysis.

Bangladesh could buy 100 F-22 and still have the same problems you just described.

It is a flaw at the core which needs to be addressed before any weapons purchases can make a difference.

 

[bluesky]

I have to praise your independent thought and analysis.

Bangladesh could buy 100 F-22 and still have the same problems you just described.

It is a flaw at the core which needs to be addressed before any weapons purchases can make a difference.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1028604.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1106521.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1122362.stm

Many thanks. Please read the three news accounts by BBC. These news do not say things that they were unable to prove. After all, it is BBC, reliability being its strong asset. However, the then BDR Chief had said later that more than 600 Burmese troops were killed in the confrontation then. It was between BDR and Burmese military troops. Our own troops were still waiting in Ramu.

The question remains to be answered, was Bd military stronger than now? Weapons-wise it was almost at the era of .303 age. Yet, it faced Burmese troops squarely. The same happened during 2008 when General Moeen ordered Naval ships to speed to the location where Burma was digging. They ran away.

But, Hasina gong is only weeping and talking about "Hiya Karenga, Hua karenga'. This meek position comes out from Hasina's weak mental standing vis-a-vis BD's military. She just does not trust them. Her father Mujib was for disbanding the then PA trained military. Military was not even fed well in his time.

She also wants to disband but cannot. So, she is living with it but does not want it to get out of her own orbit by attacking Burmese border.

 

[UKBengali]

A strong foreign policy can be pursued if a country is militarily strong and is run by civilian people with mutually trusting relationship with military. Irrespective of military strength, BD military and civilian politicians do not trust each other. Hasina does not want a situation whereby military comes to the fore.

In 2008, General Moeen sent naval ships to the Sea where MM was digging for oil/gas. MM navy broke the drilling rigs and went back within a few days. Now, why MM can send millions of refugees to BD? It is because it has correctly read the pulse of Hasina and gong. This gong does not want the military to come to the fore and takes credit. It is rather willing to shame the country only to sit in power in Dhaka.

No amount of big weapons will change the kowtowing nature of our BAL political group. Begum Zia did not care for military to come in a 2001 Naaf Dariya confrontation with MM because she belongs to a military family. On the contrary, Hasina's family members were killed by the military and so she does not trust the military.

Now, we can see another Mir Zafar Ali Khan clad in Sari and Hijab!!

I agree that the current AL government has a somewhat "docile" foreign and defence policy but cannot agree on the extent that this is due to the mistrust between AL and the military.

If we look back to the late 1990s when the AL was last in power, they tried and failed to order(as USA refused to sell to BD) 27 F-16s and then put in an order for 16 Mig-29s with an option for 16 more. In that time they also ordered the single Ulsan class frigate which to this day is still the most advanced and powerful warship in the BN.

When BNP came into power in 2001, not only did they cancel the options for 16 extra Mig-29 but refused to take the 8 Mig-29s that were still to be delivered by Russia. BNP also wanted to sell the 8 Mig-29s that had already been delivered but I think luckily they could not find any buyers.
They also mothballed the Ulsan class frigate as they felt it was also not required.

So saying that the AL are anti-military and BNP pro-military is not wholly accurate.

As has been seen in another thread, BD defence spending has gone up by 81% in real terms over the last decade and this is the highest in the world just next to China. There is no reason to think that over this decade BD defence spending will not follow a similar trend.

My impression is that the AL government has made a pact with the military to be allowed to stay in power as long as the military gets the toys that it wants within BD financial capability. What they do with the money given seems to be up to the competency and the whims of those running those branches.

The BAF has been given every chance to build itself up like the BA and BN has been but it seems to have an extremely incompetent and/or corrupt people at the top.

From all the information I have read it seems that instead of using the funds available to it to complete the Mig-29 squadron by buying an extra 8 Mig-29s and upgrading the current planes to SMT standards(new radar and R-77 AAMs), it foolishly chose to spend that money on 16 F-7BGIs and far too many trainers for it's fleet of front line fighters.

Now imagine a BAF with 16 modern Mig-29s with modern radars and R-77s against 30 MAF Mig-29s with 1980s era radars and the pretty obsolete R-27 AAM back in August 2017.
Kind of changes the whole military calculus doesn't it?

My opinion is that BD government and military rightly did not take a military posture against Myanmar in 2017 simply as BAF was not up to the job against Myanmar.

I know there is a lot of "filling in gaps" with educated guesses here but I do not think it is simple as BNP = pro military and AL = anti-military.

 

[Aung Zaya]

MAF Mig-29s with 1980s era radars and the pretty obsolete R-27 AAM back in August 2017.

Well. Most of MIG-29 are already upgraded in locally including radar upgrade package which was signed with russia later.

 

[UKBengali]

Well. Most of MIG-29 are already upgraded in locally including radar upgrade package which was signed with russia later.

Yeah but not in August 2017 and did you have R-77 then?

 

[Avicenna]

Yeah but not in August 2017 and did you have R-77 then?

Doesn't really matter now.

@bluesky is correct.

This goes beyond what particular weapons BD or Burma has.

The leadership of Bangladesh has to either take the threat Myanmar poses seriously or be kicked in the nutz again in the future.

 

[bluesky]

I agree that the current AL government has a somewhat "docile" foreign and defence policy but cannot agree on the extent that this is due to the mistrust between AL and the military.

If we look back to the late 1990s when the AL was last in power, they tried and failed to order(as USA refused to sell to BD) 27 F-16s and then put in an order for 16 Mig-29s with an option for 16 more. In that time they also ordered the single Ulsan class frigate which to this day is still the most advanced and powerful warship in the BN.

You have to understand the BAL/Hasina psyche. Hasina wants to be trusted by the military but, she purchases military weapons that is not in the scale that the military would start to trust her. Moreover, she does not want even BDR to engage with BSF or MM border police.

The most important negative point is her India-leaning attitude. Our military/people by their very nature or history do not like BD to appease India. But, Hasina does it like a servant does. Why? Because she feels she is not trusted by the military who killed her entire family, and in order to balnce the military, she encircles herself with Indian support that again causes more loathing in the military.

It is a vicious cycle BD politics is in now. As a direct result of Hasina's weak foreign policy or no policy at all, MM had the audacity to force its Muslim population into Bangladesh. BD inactions that followed the expulsion testifies that MM's understanding of Hasina psychology was correct.

Psychology is an important subject in the military manual throughout the ages. Simply speaking, it is the understanding of the inner thinking of one's rivals which is used to form an offensive strategy. MM military top brass has full understanding of Hasina psychology that she loathes any rival (read military) to come to the fore. The result was an easy expulsion of more than a million Rohingya.

The Rohingya issue is not going to be solved unless self-assured leadership comes to the fore.

 

[jaibi]

It's been well documented that USSR supported India otherwise it wouldn't have been able to fight in 1971 regardless of whatever fantasy you have, sir. India was never 'lonely' in that effort and didn't have the gall to cross the limitations set to it by the powers to be. It's been the case with everyone at the time; I'm only refuting what you've stated.

Secondly, Bangladesh is an independent nation, why does their pursuit of that independent policy bother your nation? The Sri Lankans have had the same issue with your nation's policy towards their neighbours. Why bring this up? Your post was reported but I think you should answered and engaged because had this been deleted for your vile remarks you'd have cried censorship. Some other Mod may disagree and do something else though.

Third, are we really going to compare sports performance for national character? Is that really the path you wish to take because if so then the dirt to dig there would be quite interesting for you if we use the same lens on your nation and it's not just in playing but the politics behind it.

India and China are a separate nexus of discussion. Is it wise to bring it here? Clearly BD does not agree with India wholeheartedly and as an independent nation, can they not do that? Are you a good 'ally' if you first berate them and then come off as a friend?

National politics and international relations are a very interesting field because everything that you've accused BD of can be shown to be India's behavior too especially if you see Sri Lanka's past.

Personally, I do see whining but not from them. It is quite sad that Indians were thought to be the most rigorously systematic in their national politics but one man, Mr Modi and his magic, has completely rocked the foundations of that notion. I do think there are people in your nation who see him for what he is and what he represents and their nationalism reinforces that vision but the backflips made by the rest of you are disturbing, if not surprising. I don't get why you act surprised when that's shown to you.

Feel free to respond however you wish. I think we know how this would go down, brother because we're not the ones speaking from incensed emotions.

Take care and try to be safe, I say that to everyone here, if you think it's bad of me, I apologize.

How many leaders fought when BD were massacred in 71'? India fought a lonely battle against UK and USA. We already have 50-60k refugees and probably a million of your folks. That's enough justice provided for you folks.
Just stop complaining and take action yourselves. Cowards. Always blaming others for the misery of yours. If someone has to award Oscar for whining, Bangladeshis will win by a mile. Seen in cricket ground and in forums as well.

As for India selling a old kilo, who asked you to buy Chinese ships in the first place? India and China don't see eye to eye on many security issues in first place and the world knows that. And not a single word on Chinese in the first two pages show how a thankless, disrespectful bigots you folks are.

The same.thankless hypocrites like you won't even open up how one China's project in Rakhine coast opened up this issue in the first place back in 2010-11. And how Chinese weapons in hands of Myanmar's killed your linguistic cousins. And worst of all Rohungyas refusal to integrate and loyalty to Myanmar. These same hypocrites who migrated to India 2-3 decades back Want to enjoy all privileges like an normal citizen.

Bangladeshis can be defined by 2 words. Gutless. Ballless.

 

[VikingRaider]

You have to understand the BAL/Hasina psyche. Hasina wants to be trusted by the military but, she purchases military weapons that is not in the scale that the military would start to trust her. Moreover, she does not want even BDR to engage with BSF or MM border police.

How can you be so sure if may I ask ? What if India want to reach to Dhaka do you have the air defense system to prevent it ? Take a look here .

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=644043112840061

The most important negative point is her India-leaning attitude. Our military/people by their very nature or history do not like BD to appease India. But, Hasina does it like a servant does. Why? Because she feels she is not trusted by the military who killed her entire family, and in order to balnce the military, she encircles herself with Indian support that again causes more loathing in the military.

There are many sushils who love to say it . I believe you are not like them , so please refrain from saying so . And the entire family was not killed by military , but by some misguided soldiers .

I agree that the current AL government has a somewhat "docile" foreign and defence policy

You are also agreeing on this ? Has the sun risen form the west side ? It's not good sign IMHO . I believe their policy is not docile , just critical . What people believe Bangladeshi regime is actually the opposite . It's not necessarily California and democracy is not dominant here . So do not be fooled by what Momen and other ministers say . Only Hasina is the key and she has very much trusted relationship with Military . So she is the only policy maker not other ministers !

The Rohingya issue is not going to be solved unless self-assured leadership comes to the fore.

Who will do the job now ? Will a so called self assured leadership go and fight with enemy or military will ? Live today , fight tomorrow , that is the best way I would say . If you need to protect Dhaka at all cost , you have to develop your Air force first . leading a nation surrounded by hostile entities is the most difficult thing to do in reality !. It take more than arm chair analysis in safe living room !

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

It's been well documented that USSR supported India otherwise it wouldn't have been able to fight in 1971 regardless of whatever fantasy you have, sir. India was never 'lonely' in that effort and didn't have the gall to cross the limitations set to it by the powers to be. It's been the case with everyone at the time; I'm only refuting what you've stated.

Secondly, Bangladesh is an independent nation, why does their pursuit of that independent policy bother your nation? The Sri Lankans have had the same issue with your nation's policy towards their neighbours. Why bring this up? Your post was reported but I think you should answered and engaged because had this been deleted for your vile remarks you'd have cried censorship. Some other Mod may disagree and do something else though.

Third, are we really going to compare sports performance for national character? Is that really the path you wish to take because if so then the dirt to dig there would be quite interesting for you if we use the same lens on your nation and it's not just in playing but the politics behind it.

India and China are a separate nexus of discussion. Is it wise to bring it here? Clearly BD does not agree with India wholeheartedly and as an independent nation, can they not do that? Are you a good 'ally' if you first berate them and then come off as a friend?

National politics and international relations are a very interesting field because everything that you've accused BD of can be shown to be India's behavior too especially if you see Sri Lanka's past.

Personally, I do see whining but not from them. It is quite sad that Indians were thought to be the most rigorously systematic in their national politics but one man, Mr Modi and his magic, has completely rocked the foundations of that notion. I do think there are people in your nation who see him for what he is and what he represents and their nationalism reinforces that vision but the backflips made by the rest of you are disturbing, if not surprising. I don't get why you act surprised when that's shown to you.

Feel free to respond however you wish. I think we know how this would go down, brother because we're not the ones speaking from incensed emotions.

Take care and try to be safe, I say that to everyone here, if you think it's bad of me, I apologize.

I don't refute and the point I made with respect to US and UK whom they send ACs to Arabian and BoB. My bad. Yes Soviet Union helped India which military made Americans thrice of attacking India and they even amassed soldiers at Chinese borders.
I don't have an issue with BD having a independent policy. My problem comes with inferiority complex fellas dragging India in every thread. This thread had nothing to do with India. By the same breadth these same fellas won't open mouth on a Chinese role in the Rakhine area.
If BD is independent so is Myanmar. Have you seen them complain the relationship India has with BD? BD members have a problem with India giving a 30 year old sub while they irrespective of Chinese role played in Burma has no issues buying Chinese weapons themselves. India directly or indirectly has no role in their displacement of Rohingyas. Then why blame us. I had to give these fellas in a way they understand. They talk as if we didn't do them a favor in 71'. What about shelter, food, training for some 12 million folks. It's said a guest shouldn't point out the good deeds done. But do they even have some shame? Doesn't it applies to the other side too? I don't want to sound too arrogant. No nation is selfless. But all these members talk is destroying India and getting some land area. It's sickening. Do you sir take lightly when Afghan refugees who lives in your country wants a part of your country to be merged with Afg?

As for national politics, that is not the Topic of this particular discussion. MMS or Modi the govt foreign policy seldom changes. As for internal politics that's a separate topic.
I hope you are comfortable as well.

 

[jaibi]

As long as we keep it civil, let's enjoy the discussion. I'll respond in some time because I'm busy with other things on the site.

I don't refute and the point I made with respect to US and UK whom they send ACs to Arabian and BoB. My bad. Yes Soviet Union helped India which military made Americans thrice of attacking India and they even amassed soldiers at Chinese borders.
I don't have an issue with BD having a independent policy. My problem comes with inferiority complex fellas dragging India in every thread. This thread had nothing to do with India. By the same breadth these same fellas won't open mouth on a Chinese role in the Rakhine area.
If BD is independent so is Myanmar. Have you seen them complain the relationship India has with BD? BD members have a problem with India giving a 30 year old sub while they irrespective of Chinese role played in Burma has no issues buying Chinese weapons themselves. India directly or indirectly has no role in their displacement of Rohingyas. Then why blame us. I had to give these fellas in a way they understand. They talk as if we didn't do them a favor in 71'. What about shelter, food, training for some 12 million folks. It's said a guest shouldn't point out the good deeds done. But do they even have some shame? Doesn't it applies to the other side too? I don't want to sound too arrogant. No nation is selfless. But all these members talk is destroying India and getting some land area. It's sickening. Do you sir take lightly when Afghan refugees who lives in your country wants a part of your country to be merged with Afg?

As for national politics, that is not the Topic of this particular discussion. MMS or Modi the govt foreign policy seldom changes. As for internal politics that's a separate topic.
I hope you are comfortable as well.

 

[Robbie]

Just because,

1. Sanghis in India decided to cause ethnic cleansing in Rakhine in cahoots with Myanmar Tatmadaw, and

2. We share a land border with Myanmar,

Does not mean we automatically bear sole responsibility for these refugees. At the end of the day they ARE Myanmar citizens, Myanmar cannot wash their hands of their own citizens.

Our hospitality is a privilege given selectively, refugees don't have rights to live in our territory. If we had closed the border a la Sanghi India, these people would have nowhere to go except drown in the Bay of Bengal.

Just because we play nice with the UNHCR and NGO's - does not mean that we can be led around by a rope in the nose...we did our job saving these people, saved and housed them, now pay up!! We are THIS close to pushing some of these people (criminal elements) back to where they came from, along with the rest.

To all people paying lip service - if you or your country didn't take part in actively helping the Rohingyas, we don't need to hear any admonishment or advice.

Considering Chaiwala flew to Yangon to medal the generals for causing this, makes one wonder whose plan it was in the first place. And Indian govt. complete refusal to accept Rohingyas based on religious grounds was also interesting, makes one see how Sanghis are the lowest of the low - criminal scum, no matter the polished propaganda they spread trying to legitimize their racist ideology.

I've rarely seen such BS being paraded around - trying to get India, an uninvolved and frankly uninterested party - just to display their Hinduphobia.

India has business interests with Myanmar. India doesn't give a crap about anything else with Myanmar - that includes the 'will he, won't he' between Bangladesh and Myanmar on Rohingyas. Don't drag us into your crap. If you want to take Rohingyas, take them, if you don't want to, don't.

Nothing major is done by Myanmar before taking China in confidence. If want to go to war against Myanmar, do it. But be mindful of how your daddy China whoops you in return.

Xi's arrival was greeted with dancing children and youths waving the national flags of both countries and cheering, "Long live China-"Myanmar friendship" and “Health to President Xi."

China's ambassador to Myanmar, Chen Hai, told Chinese journalists last week that during Xi's two-day visit, the two countries would sign agreements "covering politics, economy, livelihoods and regional cooperation." Some are expected to expedite major infrastructure projects that will extend Beijing's strategic presence to the Indian Ocean

https://www.clickondetroit.com/business/2020/01/17/chinese-president-heads-to-myanmar-for-crucial-state-visit

Don't drag us in your issues.

On the other hand, these are the people that Bangladeshis want India to accept:

Myanmar Rohingya militants massacred Hindus, says Amnesty

Rohingya Muslim militants in Myanmar killed dozens of Hindu civilians during attacks last August, according to an investigation by Amnesty International.

The group called Arsa killed up to 99 Hindu civilians in one, or possibly two massacres, said the rights group.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44206372

Oh look, yes, India should take Rohingyas. They seem to be ideological cousins of Bangladeshis.

 

[Nilgiri]

Don't drag us in your issues.

Its too late, we live rent free in their heads.

Each time they listen to their national anthem or simply speak/read their language or investigate their origins (and why and how they self-inflicted upon all of that..and why they keep doing that), its enough for many of them to go into a searing angst and rage....because occam's razor and logic upsets them....tremendously.

They have made a full all-in pact with the emotional realm instead. Results are all there to see....and thus enforced results need to be the answer for them in real world....rather than nuanced "process" talk.

So just manage the particular flavour of grand societal-based psychosis here with the therapy as needed. One liner instructions to "not" do things wont work. We are well past that stage.

 

[Robbie]

Its too late, we live rent free in their heads.

Each time they listen to their national anthem or simply speak/read their language or investigate their origins (and why and how they self-inflicted upon all of that..and why they keep doing that), its enough for many of them to go into a searing angst and rage....because occam's razor and logic upsets them....tremendously.

They have made a full all-in pact with the emotional realm instead. Results are all there to see....and thus enforced results need to be the answer for them in real world....rather than nuanced "process" talk.

So just manage the particular flavour of grand societal-based psychosis here with the therapy as needed. One liner instructions to "not" do things wont work. We are well past that stage.

The hypocrisy and Hindu hatred being displayed by Bangladeshis are not even couched. They are doing mental gymnastics and actively contriving ways to blame India.

Pakistan sells modern fighter planes to Myanmar, China sells them every weapon under the Sun, yet somehow it is India that is being dragged in by the Bangladeshis.

Bangladeshis know that Pakistan won't give a damn about what Bangladeshis say. Plus Islamists of Bangladesh have a deep-seated inferiority complex vis-a-vis Pakistan.

China, they need to suck up to for continued succour and is a global power, so regardless of whatever China does, Bangladeshis know they can't do anything about them.

At the end of it, they can only show their rage against India and its great for them that India is also majority Hindu.

Frankly, I find this good. At least more Indians will get aware of the reality of Bangladeshis - I too am guilty of this - I had a positive opinion of Bangladeshis before I joined this forum. I see them more clearly now.

 

[Nilgiri]

The hypocrisy and Hindu hatred being displayed by Bangladeshis are not even couched. They are doing mental gymanastics and actively looking for ways to blame India.

Pakistan sells modern fighter planes to Myanmar, China sells them every weapon under the Sun, yet somehow it is India that is being dragged in by the Bangladeshis.

Bangladeshis know that Pakistan won't give a damn about what Bangladeshis say. Plus Islamists of Bangladesh have a deep-seated inferiority complex vis-a-vis Pakistan.

China, they need to suck up to for continued succour and is a global power, so regardless of whatever China does, Bangladeshis know they can't do anything about them.

At the end of it, they can only show their rage against India and its great for them that India is also majority Hindu. Frankly, I find this good. At least more Indians will get aware of the reality of Bangladeshis.

All I'm saying is you are expecting/assuming some modicum of logical fortitude.

One word: Don't.

Then it all becomes super clear and you can keep conscience clear or at least compartmentalised away from this lot here.