Baithak: Cultures & Colors of Pakistan.

[Armstrong]

@Monkey D Luffy : Saba Khan !

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

@Monkey D Luffy : Saba Khan !

New pashto singer gul panra

@Hyperion

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

more for @Monkey D Luffy

amir khan mqm

babar khan ghauri(mqm)

Rafat khan (mqm)

You are very annoying man, go take a tea break and try to forget about this thread

 

[liontk]

Why don't you ask your Grandma or Mama instead, surely my friend they'd know about all of this ?

Okay in a nut-shell :

Muslims in India had degenerated from a once ruling class with their own scholarship, bureaucracy & military presence to a disgruntled & disjointed lot of has-beens after the death of the last strong Mughal Emperor (a Turkic Muslim dynasty that ruled India for centuries & other Muslims dynasties had ruled before that) Aurangzeb in '1703 !

By this time the Muslim power was on a wane & in the next 100 years the Muslims went from one bad condition to another till they had lost almost all of their power, scholarship & collective consciousness to the British presence in India whereby India was now a part of the British Empire. The Muslim reaction to that was even more extreme - Instead of learning from their mistakes & learning from the British they shunned modern education & day dreamed about their past glories.

In 1857 a War of Independence was fought between the British & the Indians to free India but was brutally crushed ! In the backdrop of the War the Muslims were the most affected party because they had fought under the banner of re-instituting the last Mughal Emperor Bhadur Shah Zafar back on to the throne & rule India. The Muslims were persecuted, were stripped of whatever measly place they enjoyed in the Indian bureaucracy, their remaining institutions of learning were closed down, their language (Persian before & then Urdu) was replaced with English & many of their ranks were brutally suppressed ! Including Muslims who fought against the Muslims for the British Empire in putting down the rebellion.

In the meantime the Hindus of India had an awakening whereby they recognized the benefits of modern education & of constituting themselves into a community with their traditions & customs, their own heroes & villains & their own glorious past ! They learned from the British, they worked hard to build themselves up into a strong Nation.

All of this was happening when the Muslims were falling behind in almost everything & this naturally created a disparity between the two communities with the Hindus, being smarter in their response to the British, worked tirelessly to move forward & the Muslims taking one step back after another.

At this time when this gulf had widened did the Muslims realize that they've lagged so much behind that they won't be able to keep up & at the same time Hindu-Muslim relations had worsened to such an extent that there were many incidents of blood shed between the two communities.

At this time the biggest political party in India, the Indian National Congress seemed, to the Muslims, to be fighting for the rights of Hindus & not all Indians & so another party took root - the Muslim League. In the beginning the Muslim League was a sorry excuse for a party infested by land lords & industrialists without any significant grass root support but over the years when the common Muslim started feeling a sense of discrimination against him in a United India did it start gaining some support.

In time a leader was born in India, who was both un-corruptable & un-purchaseable & who placed Indians before anything else ! He started his career as a barrister qualifying from Lincoln's Inn (London) before he moved into politics & joined the Indian National Congress where he worked tirelessly, within the bounds of the law, to bring about the betterment of Indians irrespective of their religious or ethnic affiliations. For that he was dubbed as the Greatest Ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity. He was called Barrister Muhammad Ali Jinnah & is the guy in my avatar.

In this time a theory, that was born in the 1800s started taking root, called the Two Nation Theory whereby it was argued that Muslims & Hindus are too distinct Nation each with their own customs & traditions, laws & standards of propriety, outlook on life & about life & hence should be treated as two different communities not as one !

In this same time a poet-philosopher was born who worked tirelessly & with his beautiful & heart gripping poetry started to awaken the Muslims of India as the Hindus, perhaps a 100 years before them, had been. He told them about their glorious past, their religion, their traditions, their laws, their heroes, their failings, their customs, their economic systems, their regulations, their purpose in life & what the future held for them; in essence he galvanized them into a Nation ! He was called Dr.Muhammad Iqbal.

Up til this point Barrister Muhammad Ali Jinnah, who had worked so hard for Hindu Muslim Unity, became disappointed & dismayed with how, he & others like him, saw the Indian National Congress becoming a Hindu Party which was there to safeguard the interests of Hindus instead of an Indian Party catering to the needs of Indians irrespective of their religious affiliations. And so he joined the Muslim League side by side with being a member of the Indian National Congress & worked to bring the two of them together.

And yet after years of trying he left India a broken & disgruntled man !

In the meantime the differences & disagreements between the two communities continued to grow with extremist organizations popping up on both sides & it appeared to the Muslims that British Indian would soon turn into Hindu India & they would loose their identity & would be discriminated against in a United India. So there was a call for greater Muslim rights & even for a federating unit within the Union of India where we'd be able to safeguard our interests & our way of life; these were refused by the British & the Indian National Congress alike.

It was then that Dr.Muhammad Iqbal traveled to London to try to convince Barrister Muhammad Ali Jinnah to come back to India & fight the case for the Muslims of India & the Barrister agreed. From that day forward he worked tirelessly for the Muslims of India as he had also come to agree that in a United India the Muslims would become a minority who would be forever at the mercy of a Hindu majority many of whom didn't like us.

The Barrister worked day & night in trying to build the Muslim League up to face of the Indian National Congress in the elections of 1936 but the League lost & it lost badly with the Congress making governments in most provinces of India. These were tough times for the Muslims of India & many saw the true face of the Indian National Congress & began agreeing that truly Muslims would become a minority in Indian constantly under threat & would loose their identity to cultural assimilation.

So in the next elections the Muslim League sweeped the polls & got all of the Muslim seats in the Indian Parliament & became the sole-spokesmen of the Muslims of India. It was at this time when they offered, yet again, a solution after a solution to bring some sort of an agreement between the Indian National Congress & the Muslim League to arrive at a compromise of sorts so that the grievances of the Muslims of India are addressed, their rights are protected through constitutional guarantees & steps are taken to ensure that they don't loose their identity & their way of life in a Union of India at the hands of militant Hindu organizations & the Indian Parliament where they'd never be able to have a clear cut majority owing to them being out numbered 4 to 1.

But all of this was to no avail & no such compromise could be achieved ! And in the light of this the Muslim League under the leadership of Barrister Muhammad Ali Jinnah, who had now come to be known as Quaid-e-Azam or the Great Leader, asked to be separated from Indian & be granted a country of our own where we could make our own laws, protect our own culture, our traditions & teach our own history to our children without prejudice.

After a lot of struggle & a lot of blood shed between the two communities & seeing the indomitable will of the Muslims of India to have a country of their own, the State of Pakistan was born in the 14th of August, 1947.

It was at this time that many Muslims had been left in India instead of the lands which became parts of Pakistan & so many decided to stay & be a part of India. Some because they never agreed for the need to create a separate homeland of the Muslims to begin with whilst others couldn't just up-root themselves & leave for a country that was, said by everyone, wouldn't survive a single year & would collapse & become a part of India again. Whereas others, like your Grandfather, decided to move to the country that was built for them.

In the migration millions died where millions of Muslims were cut down by the angry Sikh & Hindu militant groups & in retaliation angry Muslims massacred Sikhs & Hindus. It is said that anywhere between 1-2 million people died the majority of them being Muslims.

On 14 th of August, 2012 the State that wasn't supposed to survive a year saw its 65th year of Independence.

The Indians, naturally, call the above narrative a farce ! The think that there was no discrimination against the Muslims & that instead it was all concocted by Muslim politicians for their own blind ambitions & that the Muslims of India were taken for a ride & a country called 'Pakistan' was created purely to protect the self-interests of Muslim Landlords & Industrialists !

You be the judge of what really happened by reading up on it !

Watch this movie & it explains much of it :

I read through your analysis summary of the events leading up to the mass migration and the creation of the republic of pakistan. To be honest monsieur jinah is so inspirational with respect to the struggle he went through to achieve the republic of pakistan a secular country for all the minorities of the subcontinent if i am correct. The thing that stood out from your analysis was the inherent effect of the colonialism on the locals population. We here in quebèc were colonized by the english and their culture was imposed upon us up till 19th century. So my question is how brutal were anglais on you guys in the subcontinnent.

Second question I have brother is regarding local populace opinion of the state of pakistan with respect to muslim league partie decision with carving out a republic on the eastern indus because in parallel we here in quebèc chose to stay in the canadienne federation even with the painful past through reconciliation and autonomous rights. Though ironically enough even today, we are still having the debate about quebècoìs identity and can we survive the anglais cultural onslaught because we have anglais provinces on our either sides and we have USA in the south, or is a seperate country our only way of surviving.

 

[Sedqal]

New pashto singer gul panra

@Hyperion

Good heavens, the woman is beautiful

 

[Safriz]

Good heavens, the woman is beautiful

I would say just young and average..
Not a stunner...

 

[darkinsky]

I would say just young and average..

its his choice man, let him be, @Monkey D Luffy

 

[Safriz]

@darkinsky
Kiaa ho gaya hay tumhain?

 

[Safriz]

Hehehe. I am Indian . We are everywhere

If you want to contribute to the thread.
Write about ethnic origins and language of people from Bihar,Utter Perdesh and other Muslim majority areas.
I know that muslims from Bihar,UP and Punjab migrated to Pakistan in 1947 and are given a 'blanket name' of Mohajirs and Urdu soeaking,but they too are people of different ethnic backgrounds who spoke different languages of their own had their seperate distinct cultures,but for the sake of one country they changed it all and started speaking one language 'urdu'.
Same as Europeans from all over Europe migrated to USA and had their dustinct languages and cultures,but for the sake of unity they all spoke english and left their native languages.
60 years on we still coulnt agree on a common language,and people of many areas refuse to speak urdu and call it an alien language imposed on them by Mohajirs.

They fail to realize that for a very large number of Mohsjirs,urdu wasnt their spoken language and they adapted the language,because it was declared to common language if south asian muslims,gor the sake of unity.

 

[Armstrong]

I read through your analysis summary of the events leading up to the mass migration and the creation of the republic of pakistan. To be honest monsieur jinah is so inspirational with respect to the struggle he went through to achieve the republic of pakistan a secular country for all the minorities of the subcontinent if i am correct. The thing that stood out from your analysis was the inherent effect of the colonialism on the locals population. We here in quebèc were colonized by the english and their culture was imposed upon us up till 19th century. So my question is how brutal were anglais on you guys in the subcontinnent.

First of - Pakistan is not a Secular State its the Islamic Republic of Pakistan ! Whether it was intended to be a Secular State or not is debatable & is debated to this date here in Pakistan. The Islamists point towards different speeches of Muhammad Ali Jinnah which are laced with terms like 'Islam', 'Muslim History', 'Islamic Socialism' & the sort ! The Secularists point towards Jinnah's 11th August speech where he said that 'in time Hindus will cease to be Hindus & Muslims will cease to be Muslims, not in a religious sense for that is their personal faith but as citizens of the State' !

I think he wanted a pluralistic democratic state where every opinion would be entertained irrespective of its religious or secular connotation; which is to say if a Muslim were to bring a resolution to the Parliament to institute his/her interpretation of the Shariah Law then he must get enough votes from the People to do that. Similarly if a Socialist were to bring Social Democracy or a Socialist Economic System to be instituted in Pakistan he goes to the people & gets the votes.

In essence a 'democracy' where the system of governance & the ideology behind it would be open to 'popular will' - Whatever the People decide such will be the ideology & the principles of the State.

On to your question - Indeed we have an indelible mark of the British in Pakistan ! Our legal system is modeled around English Civil Law & we use quite a few of the laws & acts of parliaments the the British Government passed. Our civil services are modeled around the British Indian Civil Servants with their colonial mindset but the difference is that whereas the British left Pakistan in '47 that colonial mindset of the Civil Servant stayed & remains till date with many of our civil servants being extremely stiff-necked & proud !

English is the official language of Pakistan & is understood by almost all literate Pakistanis & broken English is understood by many of the illiterate ones. So yes the mark is there & its very much present in some of the more subtle things for example one's mannerism & formal dressing.

But at the same time we are very much conscious of who we are & we try to maintain as much as we can our 'cultural, linguistic, ethnic & religious identities' ! Unfortunately most of our governments have been corrupt to the core & not much attention has been given to promoting & nurturing our local cultures that much ! And we're one of the most ethnically & linguistically diverse countries of the world with countless number of languages, hundreds of dialects & dozens upon dozens of ethnicities inhabiting the land we call 'Pakistan' !

Second question I have brother is regarding local populace opinion of the state of pakistan with respect to muslim league partie decision with carving out a republic on the eastern indus because in parallel we here in quebèc chose to stay in the canadienne federation even with the painful past through reconciliation and autonomous rights. Though ironically enough even today, we are still having the debate about quebècoìs identity and can we survive the anglais cultural onslaught because we have anglais provinces on our either sides and we have USA in the south, or is a seperate country our only way of surviving.

Oh we love our freedom & there can be no two ways about that ! The Muslim League after all had the unflinching support of an overwhelming majority of the Muslims of India (even the ones who choose to stay back in India). Whatever discontent there was in the beginning died out & now Pakistanis are very...very proud to call themselves a free, sovereign nation !

By the way just a year before our independence in '46 the Muslim League tried to negotiate what was called the Cabinet Mission Plan & enter into an autonomous union of sorts with the rest of India so that we won't have to leave so many Muslims behind in India & avoid the blood shed that would have been caused & was caused due to the Partition of the Indian Subcontinent ! But the Indian National Congress didn't accept that & that was the final nail in the coffin for us & we fought for a Pakistan & never looked back !

Praise be God but we are very happy & proud to call ourselves Pakistanis !

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

If you want to contribute to the thread.
Write about ethnic origins and language of people from Bihar,Utter Perdesh and other Muslim majority areas.
I know that muslims from Bihar,UP and Punjab migrated to Pakistan in 1947 and are given a 'blanket name' of Mohajirs and Urdu soeaking,but they too are people of different ethnic backgrounds who spoke different languages of their own had their seperate distinct cultures,but for the sake of one country they changed it all and started speaking one language 'urdu'.
Same as Europeans from all over Europe migrated to USA and had their dustinct languages and cultures,but for the sake of unity they all spoke english and left their native languages.
60 years on we still coulnt agree on a common language,and people of many areas refuse to speak urdu and call it an alien language imposed on them by Mohajirs.

They fail to realize that for a very large number of Mohsjirs,urdu wasnt their spoken language and they adapted the language,because it was declared to common language if south asian muslims,gor the sake of unity.

I actually intended to read and learn from people's post . I am nott to aware of the ethnic origins of U.Piites and Biharis, though i think-

Biharis and Eastern U.Pites speak Bhojpuri as their native language
Central U.P iites in and around Lucknow speak awadhi
Western U.Piites speak Hindu of Khadi boli dialect.

Ofcourse the hindus of these regions can also speak and Hindi and muslims speak Urdu. I think most U.P and Bihar walas in Pakistan must be from the Bhojpuri speaking regions ?

 

[Safriz]

^^^
Hi
Can you please tag some indian members who can give more details on ethnic origins and languages of muslims who migrated to Pakistan?

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

New pashto singer gul panra

@<u><a href="http://www.defence.pk/forums/member.php?u=139959" target="_blank">Hyperion</a></u>

iss bechari k sath be yea haal na hoo jo ghazala javed k sath howa tha

It look strange when singers earn money like this..it seem mujra where she keep getting money from hands of each tamash been out there..dont look civilized.

 

[Karachiite]

@Karachiite I would personally love it if that big mouth you MQM supporters which acting like a water release mechanism opens up each time and releases gutter water would shut.... muhajirs are a degenerative race. I have faced a self-righteous wannabe barbie wench, a band of indian fanatics and to spice it up monkey de luffy, acting like our typical favorite neighbourhood troll jumping up and down for attention like an ugly girl his face resembling that of a typical pink faced monkey as do his actions and his name on this site. Learn to condemn terror chief. Now u will shout pathan, pathan and burn a few pashtun carpet shops since i mentioned prophet altaf and luffy will shout low caste muhajir and do bacha bazi with fellow Afghans (nation) to make himself feel better... stop it. U muhajirs r the cause of the entire issue, u made these people. I go to buy bhutta in karachi i hear abuse to pashtuns, i go to my office i hear abuse, i sit with my retard family i hear it. Stop it now unless you have the brain to learn something about pashtuns and stop abusing them. It can break our country.

When people like me try to set things right u r there to ruin them, **** who am i explaining to? A guy supporting Altaf who called partition a blunder? Btw i remember long ago this faisal sabzwari guy claiming pashtuns have guns and are uncultured because of it. He asked on that show why they come to Karachi with their guns when they leave the guns when they go to the gulf. Today in north nazimabad i have heard firing from mqm workers since the entire night. Not a single pashtun... all mqm workers celebrating new year and you know how muhajir families piss their pants when they hear firing. U guys are hypocrites. U r going to teach luffy? No u will exacerbate our tensions.

LMAO you went full retard, never go full retard. Talking about burning carpet shops and members engaging in bacha bazi . My emotional friend please don't even think for a second you know me because you don't. So next time don't try to tell me to learn something. Also I don't care about your daily life issues you face.
Abusing pashtuns? How?
Also note one thing, I admire MQM but that does not mean I hold Altaf Hussain in high stature. But what he said about the partition was correct because more than half the Muslims chose to remain in India, few decades later a civil war erupted which created Bangladesh. Muslims were supposed to be united but now there are 3 different nations where there is a large Muslim population and has divided them completely.
You talk about racism but then proceed to insult the creator of Pakistan (Muhajirs). Please for your own sake stfu, you are a wreck.
What you said about Faisal Sabzwari is false, you most likely completely misunderstood him or are making up blatant lies.
And if you open your eyes then you would know which ethnicity takes pride in guns and which ethnicity was the one to introduce guns and drugs to Karachi. In the 50s and 60s, Muhajirs were the majority group in Karachi so tell me how many gun murders happened back then?
You take the internet way too seriously and get too emotional, calm down.

 

[liontk]

First of - Pakistan is not a Secular State its the Islamic Republic of Pakistan ! Whether it was intended to be a Secular State or not is debatable & is debated to this date here in Pakistan. The Islamists point towards different speeches of Muhammad Ali Jinnah which are laced with terms like 'Islam', 'Muslim History', 'Islamic Socialism' & the sort ! The Secularists point towards Jinnah's 11th August speech where he said that 'in time Hindus will cease to be Hindus & Muslims will cease to be Muslims, not in a religious sense for that is their personal faith but as citizens of the State' !

I think he wanted a pluralistic democratic state where every opinion would be entertained irrespective of its religious or secular connotation; which is to say if a Muslim were to bring a resolution to the Parliament to institute his/her interpretation of the Shariah Law then he must get enough votes from the People to do that. Similarly if a Socialist were to bring Social Democracy or a Socialist Economic System to be instituted in Pakistan he goes to the people & gets the votes.

In essence a 'democracy' where the system of governance & the ideology behind it would be open to 'popular will' - Whatever the People decide such will be the ideology & the principles of the State.

On to your question - Indeed we have an indelible mark of the British in Pakistan ! Our legal system is modeled around English Civil Law & we use quite a few of the laws & acts of parliaments the the British Government passed. Our civil services are modeled around the British Indian Civil Servants with their colonial mindset but the difference is that whereas the British left Pakistan in '47 that colonial mindset of the Civil Servant stayed & remains till date with many of our civil servants being extremely stiff-necked & proud !

English is the official language of Pakistan & is understood by almost all literate Pakistanis & broken English is understood by many of the illiterate ones. So yes the mark is there & its very much present in some of the more subtle things for example one's mannerism & formal dressing.

But at the same time we are very much conscious of who we are & we try to maintain as much as we can our 'cultural, linguistic, ethnic & religious identities' ! Unfortunately most of our governments have been corrupt to the core & not much attention has been given to promoting & nurturing our local cultures that much ! And we're one of the most ethnically & linguistically diverse countries of the world with countless number of languages, hundreds of dialects & dozens upon dozens of ethnicities inhabiting the land we call 'Pakistan' !



Oh we love our freedom & there can be no two ways about that ! The Muslim League after all had the unflinching support of an overwhelming majority of the Muslims of India (even the ones who choose to stay back in India). Whatever discontent there was in the beginning died out & now Pakistanis are very...very proud to call themselves a free, sovereign nation !

By the way just a year before our independence in '46 the Muslim League tried to negotiate what was called the Cabinet Mission Plan & enter into an autonomous union of sorts with the rest of India so that we won't have to leave so many Muslims behind in India & avoid the blood shed that would have been caused & was caused due to the Partition of the Indian Subcontinent ! But the Indian National Congress didn't accept that & that was the final nail in the coffin for us & we fought for a Pakistan & never looked back !

Praise be God but we are very happy & proud to call ourselves Pakistanis !

One last question, I know this is new years and I dont want to take your time but can you explain what the other posters are talking about. Why is karachiite(not calling you out) talking about "Muhajir" as being creators of Pakistan, I thought muslim league created pakistan and also is there ethnic tension in the coastal city of karachi because its being mentioned couple of times. While i am not in contacted with my extended family, I am curious because my grandpapa says that the family resides in a area called "kant", is that a safe area in your opinion, even though they are extended i feel worried about their safety by the way some posters are talking about. Once again thanks for answering and sorry for bringing up such a painful topic, over 1 million dead people in partition may god bless their souls in heaven.