Babur ready for induction

[Neo]

You have no proof to support your claim either. I gave you a logic explanaition based on assumptions, thats all there is. We'll never know the truth.

The fact is that Babur is there and it will be inducted, its our first CM and nobody is concernend about its authenticity. We've gained a lot of experience from this project and we'll use it to make more effictive designs in the future.

 

[Adux]

Pakistan doesnt have the required metallurgical skills is more than proof enough

 

[Neo]

AQ Khan is a versatile metallurgist, he's trained hundreds of youth in Pakistan.
You have no idea of our capabilities.

 

[Adux]

AQ Khan is a versatile metallurgist, he's trained hundreds of youth in Pakistan.
You have no idea of our capabilities.

AQ is no Albert Einstien, you are giving way too much credit.

 

[BATMAN]

Pakistan doesnt have the required metallurgical skills is more than proof enough

It's just your claim and not a proof.
Pakistani universities start specialized mettalurgy education with Bachelors degree with all possible opportunities in further education.
Hundreds graduate every year and some of them acheive more than AQ Khan.
This prove we have more than enough skilled manpower to acheive what ever we wish.

 

[Adux]

It's just your claim and not a proof.
Pakistani universities start specialized mettalurgy education with Bachelors degree with all possible opportunities in further education.
Hundreds graduate every year and some of them acheive more than AQ Khan.
This prove we have more than enough skilled manpower to acheive what ever we wish.

lol,
Its about that is it all about bachelor education...;p;, my claim is well backed,

 

[Neo]

AQ is no Albert Einstien, you are giving way too much credit.

And you are underestimating Pakistan and our manufacturing capabilities as usual.

 

[Adux]

And you are underestimating Pakistan and our manufacturing capabilities as usual.

You want to talk to me about Pakistani artillery capacity, i would rate it best in the world. India below them. I am not talking about Toys.
I know what Pakistan is good at , what it is not. I am ready to learn. But dont give me crap,
At the end of days it doesnt matter wether pakistan made it, cuz it will go boom in India.
But please do give credit to PAkistani armed forces inducting it(2 test..lol) but not the scientist in this regard

 

[Keysersoze]

t(2 test..lol)

That are known of. They could have fired off thousands of them as far as anyone is aware. I am sure they will give you a call when they want to test some new weapons system. They are very conscientious that way.

 

[Adux]

That are known of. They could have fired off thousands of them as far as anyone is aware. I am sure they will give you a call when they want to test some new weapons system. They are very conscientious that way.

lol!!!! i am sure;
There is something called our detection capacity. But i would be happy if they called

 

[Keysersoze]

lol!!!! i am sure;
There is something called our detection capacity. But i would be happy if they called

Well it is a LACM so the detection capability would be of minimal effect. or could be masked fairly easily. If you had AWACS atthe border maybe you could have but you didn't so.......

 

[irfan1173]

China and Pakistan are two totally different countries when it comes to contra intelligence. Unlike the Chinese we use foreign network to reverse engeneer sensitive technology, there's even a number of Ukranian engeneers working in Pakistan so its likely that we've succeeded in copying the propulsion.

Neo has said everything. Ukrainian engineers are there. But doesn't mean they will give us the technology in a platter. People who need to know about Babur know about it. All this talk about indian intelligence were surprised is all bullshit.

 

[joey]

The Babur CM programme was launched in 1995 and by luck we were able to recover an unexploded example in Balochistan which only expedited out efforts to complete the project.
I'm not claiming that in 100% indigenous design but its based rather on the Tomahawk than any existing Chinese design.
China and Pakistan are two totally different countries when it comes to contra intelligence. Unlike the Chinese we use foreign network to reverse engeneer sensitive technology, there's even a number of Ukranian engeneers working in Pakistan so its likely that we've succeeded in copying the propulsion.
What other alternative do we have??

Neo your not getting this thing, ask any Aero enginner what it is to produce a Turbofan engine!

Even if you say guiidance is Pakistani I'll agree, a turbofan engine developement miniaturized is complex than developing a turbofan engine for aeroplane.

If you did that for babur today China would be buying that from you and you would be supplying engines for that in jf17.

Lets get this simple, how many universities in pakistan gives a degree in engine developement? and how many papers gets published from there?

Neo you cannot imagine how complex it is to produce a turbofan engine, not even M88 contains akll French parts and not even kaveri does.

Like for example, Rafales M88 engine has these foreign parts from a single private concern,

Hydromechanical unit with integrated Main fuel pump Rafale
Afterburner actuation control with integrated pump
Lubrication unit
Nozzle fuel actuation control
Fuel Nozzle
Actuator

To make each of thing you need r&d of years and years!
Engine developement is propreitery knowledge developed for years and years!! a Simple PTAE-7 engine for lakhshya took India over years and years to develope.

 

[Neo]

So what engine is being used, a chinese one?

 

[joey]

AQ Khan is a versatile metallurgist, he's trained hundreds of youth in Pakistan.
You have no idea of our capabilities.

There is a difference between a single metallurgist and a team working, we in India have multi billion dollar company working on r&d for metallurgies, dont forget zravers point why china kept with 125mm and the type of ammunition for their gun in tank, yes due to lack in proper metallurgical skills.

I dont doubt any Pakistani metallurgist claims, but a country with no experience in developing engines developes a Miniaturized turbofan, productionalizes it, mass produces it, integrates it, and test flows succesfully after 2-3 tests and says it got inducted, range gets increased in the next test - sorry this is absolutely absurd.

Just to test the guidance of a missile one would need atleast 7 to 10 tests!!

Babur is a cruise missile, guidance of cruise missile are hardest to make. Brahmos took 10 tests for naval version, and still it is undergoing tests after tests.

this is PTAE-7 developement that powers Lakhshya,

Pilotless Target Aircraft Engine (PTAE-7)

In 1979, ADE proposed to design a pilot less target aircraft for airborne target training purpose. The design of the engine of 350 Kg thrust was entrusted to HAL. The project initially was to be completed by 1985. The usual route of an engine design involves elaborate component testing and component performance mapping. Since the funds allotted were meager even for those times and the Centre started the activities with virtually no infrastructure, no component testing was possible. Thus all components had to be used directly on the engine. Apart from this, the design team was young and inexperienced. A number of problems, which cropped up had to be addressed to by analysis, trial and error.

Some of the major problems faced were-withdrawal of M/s Dowty Fuel Systems (UK) from the programme and consequent redesign of engine control system, fuel pump, alternator and power control unit with the country; rotor dynamics problems leading to re design of shifting; sea water corrosion problems leading to change of materials for some major components; ADE increasing their thrust requirement to 380 kg leading to higher Turbine Entry Temperature operation; starting problem leading to redesign of starting circuit and introduction of enrichment circuit; compressor blade cracking leading to redesign of blade number and thickness; burning of turbine nozzle guide vanes leading to improvement of flame tube design; turbine blade cracking leading to redesign of turbine disc twice; withdrawal of M/s.Microfusion (supplier of turbine casting) from the programme; mist lubrication system problems leading to prolonged experimentation and redesign of the system; EMI/EMC problems of power output interfering with spend signal leading to additional electronic components.

The engine was test flown for the first time in May 1995. Since then 8 test flights have been carried out with the mist lubrication system. All the major problems have been overcome and now the engine is under production. 14 engines have been delivered to power the Lakshya PTA.

3.3 Regarding engine design capabilities, Secretary, DRDO further informed the Committee as under:

“Worldwide, an aircraft building centers on two or three important issues – design and building. One is that ability to do what I call basic airframe, lending gear and integrating systems, and buying out parts. It may be avionics; it may be engine; and it could be radar. These are technology intensive products. Generally, you will find that the aircraft builder does not build engine. Boeing builds aircraft but it does not build engine. General Electric builds engine, and Pratt & Whitney builds engine.

We do not have an industrial base in this country for engine design. We manufactured a few Russian engines under license in Koraput. That does not automatically make you a designer. If you are producing an ambassador car, we could not produce another car. It is not that we were not producing the car but the design engineering capability is something very unique and distinct.

What I want to tell is that understanding a capability to productionize a part does not automatically gives you a design capability. That has to be nurtured and built. If I remember, in the DRDO presentation I did say that in building a capability, the design engineer takes up to 15 years. Building a capability as a chief designer takes up to 20 years. So these technology intensive works, up to some level, have been accomplished partly in the HAL in certain areas and partly in the DRDO laboratories in certain areas. For example, we have relatively done better in avionics; we have done better in lending gear system. On engines, there were two divisions working. One was on smaller engines, in the HAL Engine Design Bureau and the other was on the gas turbine. There was only one gas turbine research establishment of DRDO in Bangalore, which had been working, which had steadily taken up the power levels. At a point when the LCA programme started, there was thinking that their experimental engine would be converted into a potential engine for Kaveri. Kaveri as of today, has developed certain capability close to 80 to 85 per cent of what we need ultimately for fitment in an LCA aircraft.

They took 15 years to reach 85 per cent from the design stretch to a level where four to five engines are simultaneously under test. If you come to Bangalore, we can show you that.

Now, going from the 85 per cent to 97 per cent in all aircraft engines, the final thrust or the push is the most difficult area. It needs certain advance technology relating to blade, cooling and also vibration-free. It needs different materials and processed engineering.”

and you are telling me you have designed a turbofan engine? reverse engineered it? productionalized it? how many aircraft engines have you previously built?

I just dont know.... Doesnt fits in my logic to be honest.
Guidance is Pakistani you say I'll agree, those are software itnensive works, still 2-3 tests proves nothing though. I'll get in guidance after this engine saga.