Aussies doubt JSF V Flanker Claims

[Moscow]

we all know that the australians have their own agenda.
but claims about the jsf are made on the development of new counter stealth radars by the russians.
the russian idea is proved by the laws of physics and below there is an extract to point at this.




The asymmetric aspect of Russia's counter stealth effort is visible. It is centred on the use of two metre or VHF band radar technology, and the networking and integration of other sensors, including passive emitter locating systems.


The focus on the two metre radio band, used primarily for TV broadcasting, is that it largely defeats stealth airframe shaping techniques designed for the decimetre and centimetre band radar. The Russians are adamant that US stealthy fighter aircraft will appear as beachball sized radar targets in the VHF band, rather than marble sized targets. Raleigh scattering regime physics support the Russian view.


thanx

 

[hj786]

I suggest you talk with someone like Xman or Sir Murad and ask them if the F22 is invincible, they will tell you something like this "what goes up, must come down!"

Nothing is Invincible my friend, not even the F22.

The SU30 MKI is the best thing there is, in the subcontinent and its Just not the Radar, you got it wrong, its got a whole lot of other stuff, I suggest you read up on it. The Radar is PESA, I would love to see and AESA, then we would be talking about a Great Radar! Reading must be Done, a Lot before posting things like this.

Take it up with PAF fighter pilots?
I don't need to. Instead I can quote what an Australian fighter pilot has said: "It is the most frustrating thing I have ever flown against. I can't lock a weapon on it, even when I can see it through the canopy."

Yes, indeed it is close to invincible, especially when compared to the big bad radar blip hyped up by you guys, the MKI. What you guys fail to understand is, MKI is not a stealth fighter. Radars will see it sooner than anything else. Heat seeking missiles will track it's big *** engines from miles away. It can fly at very high altitudes? Great, that means there is more contrast between the airframe heat and backround heat, so heat-seekers will track it even better. It can fly well at low altitudes? Great again, it will be forced to mix it up with F-7s, never mind JF-17s, and no matter what you guys say it can do, it's TVC will NOT defeat helmet-mounted targeting systems locking and firing Imaging Infra Red guided missiles.

You say the MKI has not been overrated? YOU take that up with the pilots here. They themselves say BVR is overrated, but you guys still keep saying "PESA radar tracks from 300km, MKI carries ten R-77, MKI is a mini-AWACS, MKI has TVC so it can dodge missiles (BULLSH*T), blah blah."

I am no expert on PESA/AESA radars, but from what you say, PESA is worse than I thought it was. That is great for PAF also. It does not have jamming capability of AESA, not sure about the Low Probability of Intercept though - that is the important thing. If the little F-7PG and JF-17, when not backed by AWACS, can't detect the MKI's radar then they're at a disadvantage.

Your AWACS better stay away from Pak airspace too, you should know there are secret tactics against them, even fighter pilots will not even hint to what they are although they do say these tactics are based on logic. AWACS, as well as your MKIs, are the ones that must go down as well as up.

Also, why would USA help Georgia if Georgia didn't listen to them saying "we will defend you at all costs, as long as you do not attack Russia" ?

Moscow, what you are saying about "new counter-stealth radars" is WORDS. Nothing more. These radars do not yet exist as weapon systems. Words do not shoot down the JSF, only weapons do. JSF is HERE. It is flying. Your counter-stealth radars are nothing but theories until they are set up, working and detecting the PAK-FA.

Raleigh Scattering? How much do you know about sub-atomic physics? Ever heard of Schroedinger's cat?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat
To be honest I don't understand it myself, but then again nobody does. "If you think you understand it, you haven't really understood it yet." From what I know about it, this theory basically proves that nothing exists. The way atoms work is a impossible. That means the existence of the universe is impossible. That means your counter-stealth radars do not exist.

 

[ahmeddsid]

Take it up with PAF fighter pilots?
I don't need to. Instead I can quote what an Australian fighter pilot has said: "It is the most frustrating thing I have ever flown against. I can't lock a weapon on it, even when I can see it through the canopy."

Yes, indeed it is close to invincible, especially when compared to the big bad radar blip hyped up by you guys, the MKI. What you guys fail to understand is, MKI is not a stealth fighter. Radars will see it sooner than anything else. Heat seeking missiles will track it's big *** engines from miles away. It can fly at very high altitudes? Great, that means there is more contrast between the airframe heat and backround heat, so heat-seekers will track it even better. It can fly well at low altitudes? Great again, it will be forced to mix it up with F-7s, never mind JF-17s, and no matter what you guys say it can do, it's TVC will NOT defeat helmet-mounted targeting systems locking and firing Imaging Infra Red guided missiles.

You say the MKI has not been overrated? YOU take that up with the pilots here. They themselves say BVR is overrated, but you guys still keep saying "PESA radar tracks from 300km, MKI carries ten R-77, MKI is a mini-AWACS, MKI has TVC so it can dodge missiles (BULLSH*T), blah blah."

I am no expert on PESA/AESA radars, but from what you say, PESA is worse than I thought it was. That is great for PAF also. It does not have jamming capability of AESA, not sure about the Low Probability of Intercept though - that is the important thing. If the little F-7PG and JF-17, when not backed by AWACS, can't detect the MKI's radar then they're at a disadvantage.

Your AWACS better stay away from Pak airspace too, you should know there are secret tactics against them, even fighter pilots will not even hint to what they are although they do say these tactics are based on logic. AWACS, as well as your MKIs, are the ones that must go down as well as up.

Also, why would USA help Georgia if Georgia didn't listen to them saying "we will defend you at all costs, as long as you do not attack Russia" ?

Moscow, what you are saying about "new counter-stealth radars" is WORDS. Nothing more. These radars do not yet exist as weapon systems. Words do not shoot down the JSF, only weapons do.

First you go on saying the Only good thing about the MKI is its Radar, now you say Its Bad. Inconsistencies Galore my friend! Ask PAF pilots on this forum how the MKI is. Yes I agree MKI is not as great as the F22, but then we are not flying against F22s are we???

AWACS need not go into enemy airspace bro, Please Read up..... A lot before coming in and contradicting yourself.

 

[Shiny Capstar]

This was written with an agenda, to try and show the need for F22's by Australia. Ausairpower is a biased unreliable source not taken seriously in any proper circles anyway.

The F35 will be the best thing in the region by far, no flanker will come close. The F22 is complete overkill and doesn't fit into the Aus doctrine nearly so well yet some still want it. Probably because they think that since the F35 isn't a dedicated A-A fighter it can't nearly be as good as the primarily A-A flankers, that or they just think it looks cooler

 

[Moscow]

Also, why would USA help Georgia if Georgia didn't listen to them saying "we will defend you at all costs, as long as you do not attack Russia" ?

Moscow, what you are saying about "new counter-stealth radars" is WORDS. Nothing more. These radars do not yet exist as weapon systems. Words do not shoot down the JSF, only weapons do. JSF is HERE. It is flying. Your counter-stealth radars are nothing but theories until they are set up, working and detecting the PAK-FA.

sir although this is not directly related to the topic still i will show you the counter stealth radars.also the JSF is not here.some of these radars are already being intregated into the s-400 sysytem 2 batteries of which is already in place in moscow, region.

A key development is the emergence of new technology VHF designs, built for high mobility to support mobile SAM batteries. The NNIIRT 1L119 Nebo SVU is the first ever VHF band Active Electronically Steered Array (AESA), and is accurate enough to provide midcourse guidance for a missile. Russian thinking on counter-stealth technique is to fly the missile close enough for its seeker to lock on despite the stealthiness of the target, using datalinking from a stealth defeating sensor. This radar can be deployed and stowed in 45 minutes. The new ByeloRussian KBR Vostok E wins the mobility game with an 8 minute deploy and stow time, using a hydraulically folded and elevated antenna. This new VHF radar is also fully digital, solid state, and employs an innovative "Kharchenko" square ring antenna element design. Defeat of US stealth is a primary claim by its designers, who state the ability to track an F-117A at 190 nautical mile range.

The effort in VHF radar is paralleled by developments in Emitter Locating Systems, specifically the networked 85V6 Orion/Vega and Topaz Kolchuga systems. Users of the earlier Tamara / Trash Can system claimed the ability to track the position of US aircraft with emitting JTIDS/Link-16 terminals. Other counter-stealth technology includes a VHF band multistatic radar being developed by NNIIRT.

Other important developments include the 20 kiloWatt class N-035 Irbis E hybrid phased array radar for the Su-35BM, which outperforms all US legacy fighter radars, the APG-79 in the Super Hornet, and APG-81 in the F-35. Russia's first AESA radar, the Zhuk AE, is being scaled up for the Flanker, and promises performance in the class of the latest US APG-77(V)2 and APG-63(V)3 AESAs





















now sir you can see the radars are not non-existent.
thanx

 

[hj786]

First you go on saying the Only good thing about the MKI is its Radar, now you say Its Bad. Inconsistencies Galore my friend! Ask PAF pilots on this forum how the MKI is. Yes I agree MKI is not as great as the F22, but then we are not flying against F22s are we???

AWACS need not go into enemy airspace bro, Please Read up..... A lot before coming in and contradicting yourself.

I already admitted I don't know much about difference between PESA and AESA, but I do know that PESA is good. I wrote "I am no expert on PESA/AESA radars, but from what you say, PESA is worse than I thought it was." How am I contradicting myself? How can I contradict myself if I admit I amnot sure what I'm talking about? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong - doesn't mean I'm contradicting myself.
"MKI is not as great as F-22" is a huge understatement dude.

I wrote "Your AWACS better stay away from Pak airspace too"
I was saying AWACS can be shot down if they come anywhere near Pak airspace. What do I need to read up on?

Haha nice one Moscow.
But a few questions - all that article says are claims. Has this system ever detected an F-22 or F-35 or B-2? Any stealth aircraft at all? I don't think they can really test it until PAK-FA comes out.
Because we know for sure F-22 is a stealth fighter that can't be detected by even the best normal radar - lots of exercises have proved this. What has your article proved? That a modified S-400 exists?
You should know that the Ukrainian counter-stealth "radar" was tested by Pakistan and bought by the USA, do you not think they might have found ways to counter this system as well?
Also, you know how some counter-stealth systems work by detecting the JTIDS/Link-16 signals? AESA radars like the one fitted to F-22 can communicate directly with other recievers, this new system will not be able to detect them, will it?

 

[Rajkumar]

This was written with an agenda, to try and show the need for F22's by Australia. Ausairpower is a biased unreliable source not taken seriously in any proper circles anyway.

The F35 will be the best thing in the region by far, no flanker will come close. The F22 is complete overkill and doesn't fit into the Aus doctrine nearly so well yet some still want it. Probably because they think that since the F35 isn't a dedicated A-A fighter it can't nearly be as good as the primarily A-A flankers, that or they just think it looks cooler

i totally agree with that,every body wants best so there are trying to get their hands on F22s.
as long as SU30 vs F35 goes. it can be tested in battle[which is highly unlikely] or at simulation ground.

 

[ahmeddsid]

I already admitted I don't know much about difference between PESA and AESA, but I do know that PESA is good. I wrote "I am no expert on PESA/AESA radars, but from what you say, PESA is worse than I thought it was." How am I contradicting myself? How can I contradict myself if I admit I amnot sure what I'm talking about? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong - doesn't mean I'm contradicting myself.
"MKI is not as great as F-22" is a huge understatement dude.

I wrote "Your AWACS better stay away from Pak airspace too"
I was saying AWACS can be shot down if they come anywhere near Pak airspace. What do I need to read up on?

Haha nice one Moscow, you got me.

How can Our Awacs be shot down if they stay well inside out territory, which is enuff to snoop on urs! The same will be for ur AWACS!!!! They wont come into enemy terrirtory unless the Air defences have been eliminated. I suggested you read up on how AWACS are meant to be operated in War time. God Speed.

PS: Su30 MKI is not in the league of a 5th Gen Fighter, happy

 

[hj786]

How can Our Awacs be shot down if they stay well inside out territory, which is enuff to snoop on urs! The same will be for ur AWACS!!!! They wont come into enemy terrirtory unless the Air defences have been eliminated. I suggested you read up on how AWACS are meant to be operated in War time. God Speed.

I know how AWACS are operated in war time, but what if they need to come closer? In intense EW environments they will not work as well at long distance and may well need to come closer. Problem is I can't read anything that is classified, can I? What do you suggest?

PS: Su30 MKI is not in the league of a 5th Gen Fighter, happy

Yes

The F22 is complete overkill and doesn't fit into the Aus doctrine nearly so well yet some still want it. Probably because they think that since the F35 isn't a dedicated A-A fighter it can't nearly be as good as the primarily A-A flankers, that or they just think it looks cooler

Haha, F-22 definitely looks cooler than the flankers I think.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

iceman2009:

Oh please come up with a serious source than Air Power Australia.

This was written with an agenda, to try and show the need for F22's by Australia. Ausairpower is a biased unreliable source not taken seriously in any proper circles anyway.

Oh this was written with an agenda, the author’s agenda. Sweet FA besides that.

This site and author hold little as far as deciding with Australia buys. To discuss this is a waste of bandwith.

 

[iceman2009]

Give me an exmple of a serious resource Please

ANYBODY i,m intrigued

 

[Patriot]

I think F22 will be far better in Air Superiority role then F-35 (Which i think is Multi Role Fighter) and Australia can literally crush any neighboring air force if they get their hands on Raptor.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

Give me an exmple of a serious resource Please

ANYBODY i,m intrigued

Try
Defence | Defence News | The Australian
It is the defence segemet of the main national news paper.

Also just The Australian, News from Australia's National Newspaper
and use the 'search for' area in the menu bar of the paper. Just eneter F22 or F35 and you will find a bit more detail.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

I think F22 will be far better in Air Superiority role then F-35 (Which i think is Multi Role Fighter) and Australia can literally crush any neighboring air force if they get their hands on Raptor.

I have not as yet seen anything comming out of the US re international sales of the F22 so it as a discussion point it is a bit dead.

 

[notorious_eagle]

The Radar of the MKI is not that Great, read it up and you will know its just the best there is on the Subcontinent, to say its Got a Great Radar, you need to bring in an AESA. As for AWACS, well the Phalcon has arrived, and the MKIs will be flying with them!

MKI has not been overrated. Its just that the IAF cant believe they got hold of such an awesome toy, and they are gung ho about it! Anyone would go gaga over it if they got their hands on it! Wouldnt the PAF?? Ofcourse!

It is currently the best radar in subcontinent nodoubt about that. But its amazing radar has been neutralized by PAF when they bought the AWACS. The only advantage that MKI had over F7, F16's and Mirage III/V was its radar, it could get a lock on these planes before even entering Pakistan's airspace. Now since the AWACS will arrive soon in Pakistan, this advantage that MKI had over these planes will vanish and it would be more of an even playing field. PAF's missiles can get a clear lock on the huge RCS of the MKI, so infact when the AWACS arrive for Pakistan this becames a major disadvantage for MKI. I still believe that it has been overrated by the Indians, sure its a very good bird but still not invincible. In the recent Red Flag excercises, USAF F15's and F16's had the better of MKI.