Ataturk's Legacy vs Caliphate and implications for Pakistan

[Killuminati]

I think their was to many corruption so the best decide was to clean it from bottom. Turkish nation was traitorred by arabs and had to fight on 30 different fronts agains 7 countries. No nation on the worl would survive this but alhamdulillah we won.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I think their was to many corruption so the best decide was to clean it from bottom. Turkish nation was traitorred by arabs and had to fight on 30 different fronts agains 7 countries. No nation on the worl would survive this but alhamdulillah we won.

That's true.

Kamal Ataturk's was a secular military's nationalist revolt against the entrenched monarchists (Caliphet) and Islamist-Pope (Mllahs).

So many Pakistanis fail to understand that Turkey would have been under direct European rule if not for the heroic effort of Ataturk and Turkish military.

Pakistanis fail to understand that the so-called Khilafat was just a monarchy like any other European monarchy back then, with one exception. Europeans had moved on or moving away from pure religious mumbo jumbo, to a more defined role of monarchs vs. other institutions. But the so-called Khalifas (supposedly appointed by none other than Allah nauzbillah).

Pakistanis hold this romantic notion about Khalifas. When challenged they immediately jump back to Khalifa Rashideen.

But my weak minded countrymen do not realize that 3 of the Rashid Khalifas were murdered on the job. Two of them clearly by their own people. That Rashid Khilafah was setup like any other Arab tribal structure alibiet a bit more honesty and a bit less pomp. But Arabs back then were like that anyway. Tribal chief would not eat from his coffers, how could he. It was his own. His tribes'.


All these simply show that Pakistanis Islamists are stuck in romantic past that never existed back then and definitely not at the time of Turkic Khalifas.

Yeah some Turkic emperors were good and some were bad but none of them was appointed by Allah or extended anyone's rule except their own.

So my Pakistani romantics aka Khalafites, dream on.

We on the other hand now call our barbers as "Khalifah Ji" with due respect but certainly not as appointed by Allah or for Allah.

peace.

 

[Juice]

The feudal system worked a long time in Europe....you don't see us longing for it though...

 

[KingMamba]

The feudal system worked a long time in Europe....you don't see us longing for it though...

Juice that is a different story. Europe left that system and flourished, Muslim majority countries left the only system which is religiously ordained on us and the result was that a couple of people got really rich while the majority of Muslims live their lives in poverty and backward. When you look at it this way you can see why the common Muslim longs for the Caliphate a time when they were at the pinnacle of success.

 

[FaujHistorian]

The feudal system worked a long time in Europe....you don't see us longing for it though...

No body "longs" for feudal system, when the modern day scholars can't even define the term in a precise way. In Pakistan Lefties and commies use this term pejoratively to malign the large-scale farm owners.

 

[AtillaHun]

Ataturk is a hero , he killed with his command hundres of thousands of foreign troops that sticked their dirty eyes on our lands , but what came up , he was in the votes as one of britians greatest foes and left even great memories among his enemies in WW1 .

Gallipoli - Memorial at Anzac Cove by Ataturk.
"Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives…
You are now living in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours…
You, the mothers, who sent their sons from faraway countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace, after having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."
Ataturk, 1934

 

[FaujHistorian]

Juice that is a different story. Europe left that system and flourished, Muslim majority countries left the only system which is religiously ordained on us and the result was that a couple of people got really rich while the majority of Muslims live their lives in poverty and backward. When you look at it this way you can see why the common Muslim longs for the Caliphate a time when they were at the pinnacle of success.

Your highness, King Mamba


Why are you spreading misinformation and even when you are sitting in a city/country where you could find truth about Mullahism and Ayatullahism without any fear for your personal safety. Why?

Muslims are supposed to do few things in any given system.

1. Be just, honest, trustworthy, and tolerant
2. When faced with political question, find a solution through amicable discussion


That's the religious obligation, social obligation, or moral obligation whatever you want to call it.


but please do not come on this board a public forum and say that Muslims were supposed to have a "system which is religiously ordained".

You want to be just? no one can stop you from being so if you are in NY or in Karachi
You want to be honest? no one can stop you from being so if you are in NY or in Karachi
You want to be trustworthy? no one can stop you from being so if you are in NY or in Karachi
You want to be tolerant? no one can stop you from being so if you are in NY or in Karachi
you want to find a political solution? no one can stop you from being so if you are in NY or in Karachi

Now if you have left any of these habits that are religiously ordained, then no Khalifa, no king, no president could make you.

And those Muslims who want Khilafa, lafafah are just lazy @rsed addicts who don't want to work, and just hoping that Allah will give them oil and a king named Khalifa fulana fulana and every thing will be hunky dory, milk and honey will flow through the canals, and sewage treatment plants have to be sent to India because there will be no need for them in the land of king mamba. Because people will not $hite, they will just release "perfumed air". Cars will run on water kit, and people will drink olive oil mixed with turmeric, milk and honey.

Yeah. That's the land of Khalifah and this is precisely why some of the backward people want it.


peace.

 

[Alpery]

Do you know who is Atatürk ?
a military and political genius
I didnt say this
The history said it
do you know a state that no one attacked ..from 90 years ?
it is the mechanism that established by Ataturk (including caliphate issue)
and every state has different geopolitics.



not: do you know that the caliphate has not been canceled

 

[KingMamba]

Your highness, King Mamba


Why are you spreading misinformation and even when you are sitting in a city/country where you could find truth about Mullahism and Ayatullahism without any fear for your personal safety. Why?

Muslims are supposed to do few things in any given system.

1. Be just, honest, trustworthy, and tolerant
2. When faced with political question, find a solution through amicable discussion


That's the religious obligation, social obligation, or moral obligation whatever you want to call it.


but please do not come on this board a public forum and say that Muslims were supposed to have a "system which is religiously ordained".

You want to be just? no one can stop you from being so if you are in NY or in Karachi
You want to be honest? no one can stop you from being so if you are in NY or in Karachi
You want to be trustworthy? no one can stop you from being so if you are in NY or in Karachi
You want to be tolerant? no one can stop you from being so if you are in NY or in Karachi
you want to find a political solution? no one can stop you from being so if you are in NY or in Karachi

Now if you have left any of these habits that are religiously ordained, then no Khalifa, no king, no president could make you.

And those Muslims who want Khilafa, lafafah are just lazy @rsed addicts who don't want to work, and just hoping that Allah will give them oil and a king named Khalifa fulana fulana and every thing will be hunky dory, milk and honey will flow through the canals, and sewage treatment plants have to be sent to India because there will be no need for them in the land of king mamba. Because people will not $hite, they will just release "perfumed air". Cars will run on water kit, and people will drink olive oil mixed with turmeric, milk and honey.

Yeah. That's the land of Khalifah and this is precisely why some of the backward people want it.


peace.

Your rant didn't disprove anything I said though neither religiously nor by your logic. Yes the caliphate is the only system Muslim majority areas are supposed to follow based on Islamic jurisprudence and the fact that you called the Khalifa a king means you have no idea what a caliphate is so you should brush up on your knowledge. I would go into more detail but that would be breaking forum rules.

Secondly it is fully understandable that people would look back on better times especially when the current Muslim leaders are so corrupt. If the current leaders actually tried to better the lives of their countrymen nobody would be asking for a Caliphate. Lastly you call those people lazy but in a recent survey conducted on dawn 81% of Pakistanis believe hard work is the key to success which makes your argument moot. It is not the lack of will on the part of the people it is the lack of opportunities provided by the administrations they live in. I use Pakistan as an example because Pakistani public have the most people who want a caliphate.

Ninety-five per cent Pakistanis see themselves in trouble | DAWN.COM

-Despite the hardships they face, an overwhelming number of Pakistanis, 81 per cent, believe hard work is the key to success. Only15 per cent say it is not.

PS- Your sarcastic tone is not funny it just makes you seem like a dick.

Do you know who is Atatürk ?
a military and political genius
I didnt say this
The history said it
do you know a state that no one attacked ..from 90 years ?
it is the mechanism that established by Ataturk (including caliphate issue)
and every state has different geopolitics.



not: do you know that the caliphate has not been canceled

If you are talking to me then yes I know who he is and I know why he did what he did. I have no problem with what Ataturk did as he put the sovereignty of his people ahead of any personal convictions. I am not trying to dispute if what he did was right or wrong, what I am trying to say is that it is understandable why some people want a Caliphate.

As for the bold part what do you mean by that?

 

[FaujHistorian]

..... the fact that you called the Khalifa a king means you have no idea what a caliphate is so you should brush up on your knowledge......

Your highness,

I again appeal for a rationalist and realist view of what Khilafah is. I mean how it turned out 99.9999% of the time.

No lectures about what it should be. That's all theory, written on a piece of an old junky paper not worth a cent.

Children in Pakistan would hear their elder say, Oh look at the moon. There is an old woman, spinning yarn, using charkha (spinning wheel popularized by none other than Gandhi).

They same elders also said, Oh look, Quran hadis says, establish Khilafah.

Both turn out to be just that spinning of some fake yarn and miles and miles of it.

There is no old woman on the moon and spinning yarn. Brother there is no air that she would survive. unless she wears a pressure suite.

There is no mandatory Khilafat system, as it is just spinning of imaginary yarn. Brother there is too much Mullahee hot air (methane) that a sane person can survive in it, unless he wears a gas mask to ward off all that stink.


First 4 and let's called them Fab 4 had a system not too different from the tribal setup of their days. pre-Islamic Arab tribals used to hand chop thieves. Well so did the rashideen.

pre-Islamic Arab tribals used to stone the adulterers. Well so did the rashideen.

Pre-Islamic Arab tribals used to kill a suspected murderer as revenge. Well so did the rashideen.

Pre-Islamic Arab tribals used to accept blood-money from the family of suspected murderer. Well so did the rashideen.


Thus the so-called Islamic jurisprudence that you talk about was pretty much practiced at the time, and even by the pre-Islamic Arab tribals.

What Khalifa Rashideen did, was to adapt all those practices. Off course with some Islamic lime juice drops.


Fast forward to Abbasi Khulafa. Their rule was pretty much like other royal dynasties. Some times good and some times terrible. Still monarchies with some Islamic lime juice drops.

No Khalifa ever imported a brand new system directly from Mars. They were all following the things of their time. And thus we should follow the systems of our time.

Or perhaps you want us to stop using Iphone and go back to using Kabooter mian (pigeon mail). Should we?


And now my brother, you sit in NY, just think you are living under Khalifatul-Bakistanis aka President Obama. Be loyal to him, do a bay-et and be faithful to him.

And let us be loyal to our Khalifa. No wait. Maha-Khalifa Aaala Hazrat Zardari Sahib Elaihe-salam.

This was the intent all along.

Or you still insist we the hapless Bakistanis must import a pakkah Arab from Makkah Shreef, or a Gora syed from Aaal Hussain currently resident in Qum Shareef.


This my brother is reality, what you say is just a talk about the old woman spinning lot of yarn and even that on a distant planet called moon.


peace.

 

[Alpery]

I wrote to general
the caliphate has not been canceled:
according to Caliphate related law of TBMM (Turkish parliament), the caliphate joined spirituality of TBMM
(if somebody can translate the original text of the law)

"....... some people want a Caliphate?"

there is an interesting thing that, Atatürk said something like this:
if in the future muslims need a Khalifa, all muslim states sould establish a council by rotative presidential.
He has seen the danger....(any puppet Khalifa of foreign powers or inner politics of a state)

 

[KingMamba]

Your highness,

I again appeal for a rationalist and realist view of what Khilafah is. I mean how it turned out 99.9999% of the time.

No lectures about what it should be. That's all theory, written on a piece of an old junky paper not worth a cent.

Children in Pakistan would hear their elder say, Oh look at the moon. There is an old woman, spinning yarn, using charkha (spinning wheel popularized by none other than Gandhi).

They same elders also said, Oh look, Quran hadis says, establish Khilafah.

Both turn out to be just that spinning of some fake yarn and miles and miles of it.

There is no old woman on the moon and spinning yarn. Brother there is no air that she would survive. unless she wears a pressure suite.

There is no mandatory Khilafat system, as it is just spinning of imaginary yarn. Brother there is too much Mullahee hot air (methane) that a sane person can survive in it, unless he wears a gas mask to ward off all that stink.


First 4 and let's called them Fab 4 had a system not too different from the tribal setup of their days. pre-Islamic Arab tribals used to hand chop thieves. Well so did the rashideen.

pre-Islamic Arab tribals used to stone the adulterers. Well so did the rashideen.

Pre-Islamic Arab tribals used to kill a suspected murderer as revenge. Well so did the rashideen.

Pre-Islamic Arab tribals used to accept blood-money from the family of suspected murderer. Well so did the rashideen.


Thus the so-called Islamic jurisprudence that you talk about was pretty much practiced at the time, and even by the pre-Islamic Arab tribals.

What Khalifa Rashideen did, was to adapt all those practices. Off course with some Islamic lime juice drops.


Fast forward to Abbasi Khulafa. Their rule was pretty much like other royal dynasties. Some times good and some times terrible. Still monarchies with some Islamic lime juice drops.

No Khalifa ever imported a brand new system directly from Mars. They were all following the things of their time. And thus we should follow the systems of our time.

Or perhaps you want us to stop using Iphone and go back to using Kabooter mian (pigeon mail). Should we?


And now my brother, you sit in NY, just think you are living under Khalifatul-Bakistanis aka President Obama. Be loyal to him, do a bay-et and be faithful to him.

And let us be loyal to our Khalifa. No wait. Maha-Khalifa Aaala Hazrat Zardari Sahib Elaihe-salam.

This was the intent all along.

Or you still insist we the hapless Bakistanis must import a pakkah Arab from Makkah Shreef, or a Gora syed from Aaal Hussain currently resident in Qum Shareef.


This my brother is reality, what you say is just a talk about the old woman spinning lot of yarn and even that on a distant planet called moon.


peace.

I understand your sentiments and I see why you have your doubts to the Caliphate and I agree with a lot of your conclusion BUT the point I was trying to make is WHY people in Muslim Majority countries call for a Caliphate. The rulers of today have given nothing for the people to strive for and the Muslim world is seen as a laughing stock. Where once Muslims were the advents of scientific, military, and educational prowess today they sit in the reverse. This is why people look back on that time because that was when they were at their best as compared to today. As for me living in NY that has nothing to do with this conversation. I am not advocating a global caliphate, I am not even advocating for a regional caliphate I am just giving the reasons as to why the majority of Muslims yearn for this system because they see it as the most beneficial for them and their families. Today, rulers want the majority of their people to be uneducated (Muslim rulers) because when people are uneducated they do not see that they are being deprived of things that are their right as human beings and it is easier to control people when you leave them in the dark.

PS- Whether you like it or not what is written in the Quran and Hadith is clear and you should not be such a cynic.

I wrote to general
the caliphate has not been canceled:
according to Caliphate related law of TBMM (Turkish parliament), the caliphate joined spirituality of TBMM
(if somebody can translate the original text of the law)

"....... some people want a Caliphate?"

there is an interesting thing that, Atatürk said something like this:
if in the future muslims need a Khalifa, all muslim states sould establish a council by rotative presidential.
He has seen the danger....(any puppet Khalifa of foreign powers or inner politics of a state)

The system of Caliphate already had a council who had the jurisdiction to remove a Caliph if he got out of line. I agree near the end the Caliph was corrupt as can be and needed to be cleaned up and Ataturk used the method which he thought was most beneficial for his people. More power to him.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I understand your sentiments and I see why you have your doubts to the Caliphate and I agree with a lot of your conclusion BUT the point I was trying to make is WHY people in Muslim Majority countries call for a Caliphate. The rulers of today have given nothing for the people to strive for and the Muslim world is seen as a laughing stock. Where once Muslims were the advents of scientific, military, and educational prowess today they sit in the reverse. This is why people look back on that time because that was when they were at their best as compared to today. As for me living in NY that has nothing to do with this conversation. I am not advocating a global caliphate, I am not even advocating for a regional caliphate I am just giving the reasons as to why the majority of Muslims yearn for this system because they see it as the most beneficial for them and their families. Today, rulers want the majority of their people to be uneducated (Muslim rulers) because when people are uneducated they do not see that they are being deprived of things that are their right as human beings and it is easier to control people when you leave them in the dark.

PS- Whether you like it or not what is written in the Quran and Hadith is clear and you should not be such a cynic.
.......

You my dear dear highness now making so many points (incorrect ones) that it will be hard to cover all of them in one reply.

Myth#1 - Muslim world is seen as a laughing stock

Reality#1- All tribal societies and people are laughing stock. Anyone who refuses to get civilized, follow the current law, learn the contemporary things, will be laughed at no matter what time or what religion we are talking about. Read some Pre-Islamic Arab history. Beduins aka primitive tribals used to be laughing stock. After Islam, many beduins refused to be civilized, guess what they were still laughing stock. Fast forward to now. A Hill Billy will be laughing stock in the New York, and so will a Pakistani fresh off the boat. It is just nature of things. More advanced regions and societies tend to snicker and laugh at the less developed ones. You may be walking around in your shalwar kameez, goras may not laugh at you openly, but they will surely think, look at this fressh of the boat, walking around in sleeping suit.

FYI. Saudi Tribals visiting UAE these are usually laughing stock.

Back in the time of Undlusian era, North Africans used to be laughing stock, just like now Parisians laugh at the new comers from Morocco and Tunisia.

So remember, if you behave as a primitive tribal, you will be laughed at regardless if you are a Christian, Hindu, or Muslim. Hope you get it this time.


Myth #2 - Muslims were at the top of science, education blah blah

Reality#2 - Only the free-thinking people living under Muslims kings were advanced. Mullees back then were backwards as they are now. Islam as a religion didn't start scientific inventions. If that was the case, Makkah and Madina aka modern day Saudi Arab would have been the top tier region in science and education. But you honestly look at the region and see that for the last 1000+ years, Islamic heartland has been the dark-land, the land of ignorance and arrogance. The land that did not produce any science, nor education except the rote learning of Quran and Hadees just like the modern day mad-house madrassahs of Pakistani tribal areas.

Also note that science during Muslim ear only developed in regions that were farthest from Makkah Madina. You know why?


I hope these are few things that will push you to form your own opinion instead of believing in fairy tales and that woman sitting on the moon, spinning, spinning, spinning, spinning, and spinning virtual yarn.

peace,


p.s. There are too many suppositions and myths in your post. I am just addressing two. Sorry.

 

[Alienoz_TR]

You said you are tatar , ottomans helped crimean khanate so much which was a Turkic khanate helped by another Turkish Empire.

That would be a Good discussion. The relations between Ottomans and Crimean Tatars. Not an easy topic to discuss. Maybe in another thread we ll discuss.

 

[Farooq]

You tool of the Allmighty - What are you up-to in the land of infidels? Why not migrate to THE GREAT motherland of floating dish-dashas in the middle of nowhere East?

Oh wait. You can't. They won't accept your pathetic kind there, either - would they?

Best option for you would be to have a fake encounter with a true Pakistani soldier and take one bullet for your team. Wouldn't that be the best? We will be MINUS ONE ******, and you MIGHT be granted the 170 donkeys in heaven-land!

You are the epitome of a liberal parasite that crawl all over Pakistan mocking Islamic values.

If you are really a Pakistani, you truly are a disgrace to your religion (that's if you're a Muslim) and country

Furthermore, if the majority of Pakistanis hold the same view as liberal-fascist cockroaches such as yourself and your cohorts then its not hard to understand why Pakistan is facing the wrath of Allah