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Ataturk's Legacy vs Caliphate and implications for Pakistan

not: do you know that the caliphate has not been canceled

Indeed this is a very funny thing even though %99 of the population doesn't even know we have right to appoint caliphate :lol: with the majority votes of Grand National Assembly of Turkey(TBMM).It is a hidden part like those smallest characters on the paper which so many people can't even read with human eyes when signing a deal.:cheesy:
 
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Alright so I have been following this thread, & I have got a few more points to add. First of, in my opinion it was next to impossible for Ataturk to "truly" restore the caliphate. The empire had lost all of its territories, reconquering them would be an extremely difficult task. Do take in to consideration that war requires funds, supplies, a well trained army, & most importantly; a will to fight. It was hard enough for Ataturk to gain independence for the Turks, I doubt people would have been interested to continue the battle against the other super powers to restore the empire. Another aspect of this situation that must be considered is the fact that the Arabs desired independence. It makes no sense to force people in to submission. Why is this important? It's important because the sacred cities of Makkah & Madinah reside in Arabian lands. For the caliphate to reclaim its legitimacy it must have control over the sacred sites. If it lacks that control than any leader ruling over the sacred sites can proclaim the title "caliph" for himself, thereby challenging the authority of the established caliph. If I recall correctly, the Ottoman Sultans adopted the title "caliph" after conquering the holy cities. It's safe to conclude that Ataturk made the right decision at that time.

The next question; is the caliphate a necessity for Muslims to prosper? The short answer is "no". Some Muslim states are doing great today, their people are happy & their needs are being fulfilled. Some Muslim states are doing bad, & that is entirely their own fault. Blaming others for your own faults is ludicrous. Some people believe that the caliphate was heaven on Earth. From their perspective, under the caliphate; birds sang all day long, everyone walked around with a smile on their face, God blessed the world from the waters beneath, & the rain consisted of the wine from the rivers of paradise.

Unfortunately, they are wrong. The caliphates, just like other nations; suffered from corruption whenever tyrants came in to power. There was ethnic & racial discrimination against non-Arab Muslims in the Umayyad caliphate. If I am not mistaken, in the Abbasid caliphate; African slaves began a rebellion to combat mistreatment, & attain freedom. The Arab slave trade still existed, & many slaves from conquered non-Arab regions were treated terribly. Not everything was bad though, & there was lots of progress in both the Umayyad & Abbasid caliphates. Many Greek, Persian, & Vedic books were translated in to Arabic resulting in the Islamic golden age as Muslim & non-Muslim scholars struggled to contribute to civilization. Muslims from all ethnicities progressed in varying fields, for example; Avicenna was a Persian polymath who wrote the book called "The Canon of Medicine", & is also known as the "prince of medicine".

So it's clear, that all civilizations went through eras of prosperity & darkness. Why then do we whose ancestors formed great civilizations require the caliphate to progress in the modern world? Can't we succeed without it? To put it simply; any Muslim majority nation can succeed if it desires to. All they require is good leadership, a government & society that is irreproachable, the freedom of thought & speech, nationalism, a strong cultural & linguistic identity, a thirst for knowledge, & last but not least; ambition. The term "irreproachable" in this case refers to a society & government that isn't corrupt & adheres to good ethical & moral values. Respect for your own language & culture is crucial not only for the sake of unity, but for scientific progress too. Well developed languages like Greek, Arabic, Latin, French, & English are filled with scientific terminology & are under constant development to further their applicability in various subjects. The importance of knowledge & ambition should be self-explanatory. Anyway, these were my views. I got sick of typing, so I didn't really feel like elucidating my post any further.
 
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You my dear dear highness now making so many points (incorrect ones) that it will be hard to cover all of them in one reply.

Myth#1 - Muslim world is seen as a laughing stock

Reality#1- All tribal societies and people are laughing stock. Anyone who refuses to get civilized, follow the current law, learn the contemporary things, will be laughed at no matter what time or what religion we are talking about. Read some Pre-Islamic Arab history. Beduins aka primitive tribals used to be laughing stock. After Islam, many beduins refused to be civilized, guess what they were still laughing stock. Fast forward to now. A Hill Billy will be laughing stock in the New York, and so will a Pakistani fresh off the boat. It is just nature of things. More advanced regions and societies tend to snicker and laugh at the less developed ones. You may be walking around in your shalwar kameez, goras may not laugh at you openly, but they will surely think, look at this fressh of the boat, walking around in sleeping suit.

FYI. Saudi Tribals visiting UAE these are usually laughing stock.

Back in the time of Undlusian era, North Africans used to be laughing stock, just like now Parisians laugh at the new comers from Morocco and Tunisia.

So remember, if you behave as a primitive tribal, you will be laughed at regardless if you are a Christian, Hindu, or Muslim. Hope you get it this time.


Myth #2 - Muslims were at the top of science, education blah blah

Reality#2 - Only the free-thinking people living under Muslims kings were advanced. Mullees back then were backwards as they are now. Islam as a religion didn't start scientific inventions. If that was the case, Makkah and Madina aka modern day Saudi Arab would have been the top tier region in science and education. But you honestly look at the region and see that for the last 1000+ years, Islamic heartland has been the dark-land, the land of ignorance and arrogance. The land that did not produce any science, nor education except the rote learning of Quran and Hadees just like the modern day mad-house madrassahs of Pakistani tribal areas.

Also note that science during Muslim ear only developed in regions that were farthest from Makkah Madina. You know why?


I hope these are few things that will push you to form your own opinion instead of believing in fairy tales and that woman sitting on the moon, spinning, spinning, spinning, spinning, and spinning virtual yarn.

peace,


p.s. There are too many suppositions and myths in your post. I am just addressing two. Sorry.

- Go ahead start a poll on this very forum and you will see for yourself. It is nothing to be ashamed of rather admitting it is the first step in correcting it.

- Now you don't even accept that Muslims were once at the top in both sciences and education? Have you even attended a World History class anytime in your life?? Even here in the West they teach something about the Islamic Golden age in World History maybe you should look into it or a simple Google search would suffice. Heck there is actually some threads on this very forum which talk about this. There are letters from the King of England to the Caliph asking permission to send his children to study in Muslim universities yet you call this a myth, you have no credibility.

- First you dismiss the fact as myth then contradict your own statement with this new statement. Once again you have no credibility either they did or they didn't.

- I don't know what problem you have with woman who spin yarn but you should probably advise a counselor.

I won't bother answering you again as I can see now what you are. You are nothing but a FAR left liberal who wants to blame all the problems of the world on religion. You and the Far Right Mullahs you constantly refer to are cut from the same cloth. Whereas they believe there is a lack of religion which causes problems, you fools believe there is too much religion which is the cause of all problems. Both of you idiotic groups are so off center it is not even funny and all you guys are good at is posturing without offering any substantial solutions to the problems people face.

-Peace

You are the epitome of a liberal parasite that crawl all over Pakistan mocking Islamic values.

If you are really a Pakistani, you truly are a disgrace to your religion (that's if you're a Muslim) and country

Furthermore, if the majority of Pakistanis hold the same view as liberal-fascist cockroaches such as yourself and your cohorts then its not hard to understand why Pakistan is facing the wrath of Allah

No doubt, the same people who blame everything on Islam are the champions of democracy who voted fools like Zardari into office in the first place. :rolleyes:
 
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Consudering some of attaturks actions he is probably burning in hell
 
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- Now you don't even accept that Muslims were once at the top in both sciences and education? ....:


There were people in Muslim monarchies (mislabeled as Khalifah lafafah) who did wonderfully in science.

However Islam as a religion had nothing do with it. Muslim Mullahs were a hindrance to scientific endeavors. Proof is in the pudding. Don't you see? Firs encyclopedia was compiled in Baghdad for sure, but it was all done underground, because Mullees were hunting down and lynching all of these scientists using false accusations like they do today under hoodhood ordinance in Pakistan.

Don't you open your eyes and your mind to see a simple fact? The regions where Islam was fully in control like in the heartland of Makkah and Madina, there was no science whatsoever.

The Islamic heartland has been a darkland when it comes to innovation, and discovery. These 100% pakkah Muslims were as far away from science as modern day Madrassah in Afghanistan.

Now do not come tell me that Mullah Umar has invented new Astrophysics theories that explain away all the laws of nature using one type force instead of many.

Because Mullahs as now, were rote learning robots back then.

So quit mixing religion of Islam with science. They are like water and oil and they will never have mixed unless you are reading History 101 with no use of your own brain, your own intellect.

peace.
 
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What ever the circumstances, their is no justification of abolishing a important aspect of Islam from the land of Muslims.

Well, Ataturk was fighting with Muslim Arabs for protecting Caliphate's lands. And for the record, Turkey never acknowledged Ottoman legacy. (because of the debts that Ottomans gave to us) It means that House of Osman is still khalif -in law-
 
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Well, Ataturk was fighting with Muslim Arabs for protecting Caliphate's lands. And for the record, Turkey never acknowledged Ottoman legacy. (because of the debts that Ottomans gave to us) It means that House of Osman is still khalif -in law-

We accepted and payed Ottaman Empire's massive debt to Brits after Republic established , what do you mean by never acknowledged?
 
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We accepted and payed Ottaman Empire's massive debt to Brits after Republic established , what do you mean by never acknowledged?

Not just Turkey. Turkey never acknowledged it, because if we do something like accepting the Ottoman legacy, we must pay all of the Ottoman debts -alone.

Ottoman debt was divided into nations that interited Ottoman lands. Turkey was responsible partially.
Exactly.
 
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Well, Ataturk was fighting with Muslim Arabs for protecting Caliphate's lands. And for the record, Turkey never acknowledged Ottoman legacy. (because of the debts that Ottomans gave to us) It means that House of Osman is still khalif -in law-

What? Turkey is the Official successor to the Ottoman Empire . This has been acknowledged in the Treaty of Lausane
 
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What? Turkey is the Official successor to the Ottoman Empire . This has been acknowledged in the Treaty of Lausane

Source or it didn't happen.

Edit: I found this:
ARTICLE I6.
Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.
from here: http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/Treaty_of_Lausanne
 
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Türkiye ile Osmanlı iki farklı devlet değildir, aynı devlettir sadece ismi değişmiştir. Murat Bardakci .


Treaty of Lausanne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Treaty of Lausanne led to the international recognition of the sovereignty of the new Republic of Turkey as the successor state of the defunct Ottoman Empire.

Treaty of Lausanne, (1923), final treaty concluding World War I. It was signed by representatives of Turkey (successor to the Ottoman Empire) on one side and by Britain, France, Italy, Japan, Greece, Romania, and the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes (Yugoslavia) on the other. The treaty was signed at Lausanne, Switz., on July 24, 1923, after a seven-month conference.

Treaty of Lausanne (Allies-Turkey [1923]) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

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Quote by Murat Bardakci - Turkiye cumhuriyeti , Selcuklu ve Osmanlinin Devamidir , sadece rejim degismistir. Bu devletler Batidaki Turk Devletleri.

Diger bolgelerdede Turk Devletler ve imparatorluklar vardir , babur , timur felan.
 
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