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Ataturk's Legacy vs Caliphate and implications for Pakistan

He was able to defeat them in the battle field yet he still submitted to their values, beliefs, and culture

Who does that?

This man literally tried to ban Islam ... see what he did to Turkey after WW1 ... its you who needs to "brush up" on Ataturk and his history

who goes against the empire the way the wahhabis did

We are currently in the grip of a pro Terrorist/ Takfiri/ Wahhabi wave. The people who call Ataturk a kafir and a murtad are the same (or children of) who called the Quaid ' Kafir Azam' and were dead against creation of Pakistan.

Wahhabis/Salafin of Saudi Arabia had been fighting ‘Khalifa Waqt’ since the late 18th century. Abdul Aziz Ibne Saud fought alongside infidel English to kick Ottoman Turks out of Arab lands.

End result was that Bilad e Sham (Lebenon, Syria, Palestine and Jordan), Iraq and Hejaz were taken away from Muslim Ottoman rule. Palestinian problem would not have existed and Israel would not have been created, had these bigoted and narrow minded Wahhabi/Salafin not sided with the English against the Turks.

In May 1919 Greeks with the help of English & the French occupied Smyrna. English occupied Istanbul early in January 1920 and on August 10, 1920 Ottoman Khalifa Mehmed VI signed the treaty of Severs that ceded Thrace to Greece. In October 1920 Greeks advanced into Anatolia. Southern Anatolian rim was controlled by the British, Greeks and Italians.

Mehmed VI left Istanbul in 1922 and in his place Abdul Majeed II was elected Khalifa by the Grand National Assembly of Turkey. Abdul Majeed was Khalifa only in name had no real part in governing the country. Caliphate was finally abolished by Mustafa Kemal in 1924.

It was the Wahhabi/Salafin alliance with the English that in real sense ended the ‘Khilafat’ because after the treaty of Severs, Turkish Sultans/Khalifas had no power to speak of and had no relevance to the governance of Turkey.

Turks had to fight French, Greeks, Armenians and the English at the same time. It was Mustafa Kemal and his national movement that eventually managed to throw the foreigners out and liberated what is now modern Turkey thru armistice of Mudanya on October 14, 1922.

Thanks to the Wahhabi/Salafin support of the infidels, Ottoman Turkey was on the verge becoming a European colony. Mustafa Kemal Pasha was no angel and he committed many mistakes, but he was a true Mujahid.

Mustafa Kemal saved the honour of Turks and the Muslims by beating Franco/English/Italian/Greek Alliance.

I salute Ata Turk.


I'm with you all the way brother. I'm with you all the way


and i dont give a flying **** about these loud-mouthed moral brigades who would flynch at the sound of a rifle and still claim they are some kind of defenders of Islam
 
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So the head of state, the caliph, should be selected by Shura – elected by Muslims or their representatives ok?

Now take a situation where there is an electoral college which is chosen by good Muslims and this college picks the ruler. Isnt this in effect a calipate?

That worked well
Zardari1.jpg
 
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So the head of state, the caliph, should be selected by Shura – elected by Muslims or their representatives ok?

Now take a situation where there is an electoral college which is chosen by good Muslims and this college picks the ruler. Isnt this in effect a calipate?

That worked well
Zardari1.jpg

he's a great Amir ul Momineen isnt he? :laugh:

and it says a lot about the chutiyas who voted him and his people in
 
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He was able to defeat them in the battle field yet he still submitted to their values, beliefs, and culture

Who does that?

This man literally tried to ban Islam ... see what he did to Turkey after WW1 ... its you who needs to "brush up" on Ataturk and his history




It is true that Ata Turk in an effort to pull Turks from the Middle Ages into the 20th century attempted to modify Islam.

Islam is the religion sent from Allah. No human has the power to ban it or threaten it. Any such attempts are very short term. Islam is in the blood of ordinary Turk. We now have a country that is modern and prosperous and Turkish population is now reverting to traditional Islamic practices.

In my humble view, Mustafa Kemal performed an admirable service to Islam by defeating the Anglo French Alliance in the aftermath of WW1 and should be honoured as a hero of the Islamic world.

It appears that some people wouldn’t mind being a colony of the Infidels if it means that they can keep to their traditional values. Iqbal was fully aware of this slave mentality that is why he said:

Mulla ko jo masjid main hai sajdeh ki ijazat
Nadaan ye samajhta hai ke Islam hai azaad.
 
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Niaz..ataturk merely put religion as a private matter between man and god and not an affair of the state.

He had good reason to go overboard like banning head scarves because every Islamic movement is expansionist in nature and some would have started demanding that turkey be made into an Islamic country. that would be a start with no end..soon there would be blasphemy laws,etc etc. the mullahs would try to govern everyone's life and soon people would come calling for Jehad against other countries..etc etc. there are too many thekedars of Islam each trying to prove themselves more Islamic than others and trying to get political power from Islam.

It is because turkey is secular that it has succeeded. and the day it stops being secular is the day it would stop being as great as it is.

I would refer to the second post of this thread as very useful.
 
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Niaz..ataturk merely put religion as a private matter between man and god and not an affair of the state.

He had good reason to go overboard like banning head scarves because every Islamic movement is expansionist in nature and some would have started demanding that turkey be made into an Islamic country. that would be a start with no end..soon there would be blasphemy laws,etc etc. the mullahs would try to govern everyone's life and soon people would come calling for Jehad against other countries..etc etc. there are too many thekedars of Islam each trying to prove themselves more Islamic than others and trying to get political power from Islam.

It is because turkey is secular that it has succeeded. and the day it stops being secular is the day it would stop being as great as it is.

I would refer to the second post of this thread as very useful.

A little info, banning headscarf on goverment buildings later came many years after his death it was nothing to with Ataturk's reforms.
 
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Ataturk was a murtadd kaffir who fought for the Ottoman empire only to destroy it and submit to the ******, repugnant euro christian way of life

He then brainwashed an entire nation into loving him

A product of Zia Ul Haq's Jihad cannot understand what Ataturk did saved his country from the jaws of fanaticism and terrorism... we Pakistanis do not even have a right to talk about Turkey's national hero after twisting our national leader's belief in secularism to some Pan Islamic idea.

Turkey's economy has expanded exponentially in the recent years. For any debate on Turkey we need to first stop equating secularism with anti-Islam and accept there is a place for Islam in secular society as there is a place for all religions.
 
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There is no doubt in my mind that Mustafa Kemal Ataturk was a great man of his time. His legacy is the modern Turkish Republic. I fail to understand how people call him a Western 'stooge' when he was one of the few Muslim leaders to save his country from being enslaved by he West. I regret that we did not have anybody of his stature in our part of the world - Who might have saved us being slaves of the British for 97 years.

Had Ataturk not been there for Turkey after WW1 Greece would have annexed most of the Bosphorus and the Turkish Aegean Coast. Without doubt today Istanbul would be known as Constantinople and Izmir would be Smyrna. Both would be Greek cities. At best Turks would have been left with a poor rump in Eastern Anatolia or worse become a Greek colony.

What I can't understand is that Attaturk saved the Turkish nation from being enslaved like most other Muslims became from Morocco to the Punjab[Pakistan] yet we the grandchildren of the enslaved have the galls to accuse Ataturk of being a Western puppet. So what should he have done? Followed the Punjabi Muslims and let Turks become British slaves?

As far as his annulment of the office of the Caliphate well that was dead anyway. What is the point of resusitating a dead horse? The so called Ummah from Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Gulf Emirates, Punjab [Pakistan], Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, Dagestan, Chechnya, Tataristan, Kazakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia,Mauritania, Sudan and Yeman were enslaved and under European domination.

So what was he going to be, a Caliphate of the enslaved? Did this enslaved Ummah help Turkey in her hour of need. Did the Ummah brothers help Turkey as the Greeks marched towards Istanbul? No they did not. Instead this is how the Muslim brothers helped out. The Arabs joined the British to attack Ottoman Turkish Army to free Palestine from the Turks so that the British could give it to the Jews.

The Punjabi Muslims, Pashtuns [ Pakistan ] also helped out by joining in droves the British Indian Empire army and fought to liberate Iraq from the fellow Muslim Turks so that their masters English could grab Iraq. Although to be fair Pashtun and Punjabi's [Pakistan] did also play a hand in the Khilafat Movement to help Turkey.

The unmistable lesson that Ataturk learnt was when the chips are down only your own fellow countrymen will stand by you. Ataturk realized that he would have to work to make Turkey strong. He kickstarted the modernizing process and look where Turkey is today.

Pakistan should be inspired by Ataturks Turkey. We should also note how many Muslim armies joined us to fight against India? Non. It is our fight. How many Muslim countries have sanctioned India for what she is doing in Kashmir? Non. In fact on the contrary some countries like Gulf Emirates and Saudia favour India by choosiong to primarily to recruit workers from India which helps the Indian economy which in turn pays for the Indian military.

So we need to learn from the Turkish experiance, first how not to become slaves of the West [like we were upto 1947] and secondly how to progress in the modern world.

The great Allama Iqbal from Siakot, Pakistan. Famous Kashmiri poet and the man who gave birth to the idea of Pakistan supported modern Turkish Republic and saw inspiration in Ataturk's novel Turkish project. His support of Turkey is seen in many ways.

"One of his [ Allama Iqbal's ] famous poems, namely, Jawab-i-Shikwa was recited in the Badshai Mosque at Lahore [todays Pakistan]. in 1912 in order to raise funds in aid of the Turks wounded in the Balkan war"

"Even on his death bed Iqbal reasoned that each and every reform promulgated in modern Turkey was not repugnant to Islam. He wrote that so long as the Turks believe in Tauhid and the finality of Prophethood, they do not step out of the fold of Islam, whatever may be their interpretation of the Law. The development of pragmatic outlook was in perfect harmony with Islam. Similarly change to European dress or Latin script did not imply renunciation of Islam because Islam as a religion had no territorial attachment and as a culture had neither any specific mode of dress nor any particular script nor language. The reforms such as abolition of polygamy were not anti-Islamic for according to Islamic law the Head of a Muslim State could suspend a legal “sanction” if the social conditions so demanded. As for the licentiate Ulema, according to Iqbal, only the Head of a Muslim State or those whom he appointed had the right to preach or give a Fatwa -(an opinion on law)".

"As for the adoption of European civil codes, Iqbal argued that this arose out of the youthful zeal for reform excusable in a people furiously desiring to go ahead. In his view such situation were bound to arise in other Muslim countries also and hence he reaised the question of the revision of old Muslim institutions in the light of modern experience. It was in this background that he insisted on the opening of the gates of Ijtihad and the study of Islamic law in the light of modern jurisprudence so that it can be reinterpreted to suit the needs and the requirements of each and every Muslim generation".

"It is therefore evident that Iqbal was deeply influenced by the developments in modern Turkey. He evolved the concepts of Islam as a nation building force for Muslim minorities, the carving out of viable independent States in their homelands, giving the power of Ijtihad to an elected legislative assemly and finally the assimilation of Muslim national States as a powerful family of republics, through receiving inspiration from the experiences of the modern Turkish nation.

"He therefore felt the need of evolving modern Islamic theology on the basis of new discoveries in the fields of psychology, mathematics, physics, chemistry, astronomy, etc."

Muhammad Iqbal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
THE IMAGE OF ?TURKEY AND TURKISH DEMOCRACYIN

First of all Allah did not give Iqbal any authority to make any matter Islamic that has nothing to do with Islam. Iqbal above statements only proves that he was a hypocrite who molded the shape of Islam to suite the needs.
Iqbal's work is famous for rejecting western/imperialists systems on Muslims' land but here he is justifying western/kuffr secular system on Muslims' land.
Secular means keeping religion (Islam) out of the business of the state where as Allah (swt) says: “Those who do not rule by what Allah has revealed are disbelievers.”[5-44].
Ataturk would have saved Muslims from imperialists only if he had restored Khalifa instead abolishing it with the help of British empire.
I wonder what Iqbal had to say when Ataturk deprived Muslims from their religious rights and publicly questioned the value of Islam and held the view Islam was not compatible with modern science and secularism was imperative for modernity. I wonder what Iqbal had to say when attaturk banned women from wearing veils, forced worshipers to change the call for prayers in Turkish, replaced the Islamic calendar with the Gregorian calendar; replaced the Arabic script which was used to write the Turkish language with the Latin script and closed all religious schools.
Even if all Kemalist plans are justified by Iqbal then Iqbal is a hypocrite man who all of his life encourage islamic principles and code of conduct and here he is blindly in love with Secularism.

There are no Jinnah worshipers in Pakistan ! Woh Baap thaa hamarei so naturally we Love him !
Maybe he was your baap but not ours.
As for Mr.Ataturk ! I disagree with him vociferously on the course of action he choose for the Turkish Nation and indirectly for the Muslim world ! It would have made more sense to make Turkey a liberal, pluralistic democracy which reforms Islam, including political and economic aspects of Islam, to get rid of the corruption, nepotism and the intellectual rot that had crippled us Muslims but I can't for a moment condemn him for taking his course of action for he in his experience thought that it was best to confine Islam to one's private affairs and get rid of every communal aspect of the religion; he may well be proven correct and he , for the time being, seems to be. However even if one disagrees with his decisions, as I very humbly do, one cannot, for a moment, doubt his sincerity to the Turkish Nation and for that he is rightly named as 'Ataturk'.
Thats funny coming from a guy who adores Jinnah, Iqbal when these two so much deeply enlightened by Ataturk that they wanted to be just like him.
 
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The guy gave up his marriage, his daughter, his political career, his legal practice, his health and finally his life for Us..if that doesn't endear you to him then nothing will ! I'm just glad that you left for greener pastures when you did because Pakistan can do without a son who doesn't idolize the Father of us all.

Lets get your facts straight. Jinnah's had special love affair with Zoroastrians, his political career started by zoroastrians political leaders, married to a zoroastrian women who practiced black magic and only changed her religion to Islam to keep Muslim's ego satisfied. To our amusement his daughter also ended up marrying a zoroastrian man! Oh yes, you can pretend this is all false.
 
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Hilarious that you can support a man who was able to defend his country yet submitted to the opponents rule and way of live while rejecting his own as inferior

All "Ataturk" defenders believe that their own culture is inferior to the euro culture and way of life. They accept defeat like Ataturk did.

The real Ataturk is Muhammad al Fateh or Osman Ghazi
 
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Lets get your facts straight. Jinnah's had special love affair with Zoroastrians, his political career started by zoroastrians political leaders, married to a zoroastrian women who practiced black magic and only changed her religion to Islam to keep Muslim's ego satisfied. To our amusement his daughter also ended up marrying a zoroastrian man! Oh yes, you can pretend this is all false.


aha okey...
 
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We are currently in the grip of a pro Terrorist/ Takfiri/ Wahhabi wave.
Your ideology is not any different from a red neck labeling every single Muslim a terrorist! So basically anyone who questions Ataturk, or Jinnah is a terrorist :what: Do you have any evidence to support your claim? Even my fart sound more logical then rhetoric comments by liberal douchebags behind a computer.
The people who call Ataturk a kafir and a murtad are the same (or children of) who called the Quaid ' Kafir Azam' and were dead against creation of Pakistan.
Again, your logic is wrong because I consider ataturk kafir and some what jinnah but i am not against the creation of Pakistan simply because I would not want to be part of Hindustan.
Wahhabis/Salafin of Saudi Arabia had been fighting ‘Khalifa Waqt’ since the late 18th century. Abdul Aziz Ibne Saud fought alongside infidel English to kick Ottoman Turks out of Arab lands.
End result was that Bilad e Sham (Lebenon, Syria, Palestine and Jordan), Iraq and Hejaz were taken away from Muslim Ottoman rule. Palestinian problem would not have existed and Israel would not have been created, had these bigoted and narrow minded Wahhabi/Salafin not sided with the English against the Turks.
glad you got this right.

It was the Wahhabi/Salafin alliance with the English that in real sense ended the ‘Khilafat’ because after the treaty of Severs, Turkish Sultans/Khalifas had no power to speak of and had no relevance to the governance of Turkey.
No dough saudi's assisted in destruction of Khalifat but did Ataturk do anything to save Khilafat or atleast restore it before he is excluded from any blame?
Turks had to fight French, Greeks, Armenians and the English at the same time. It was Mustafa Kemal and his national movement that eventually managed to throw the foreigners out and liberated what is now modern Turkey thru armistice of Mudanya on October 14, 1922.
Your Kamalist fantasy has taken a new height. First of all it was Ottoman that that fought not Turkey and all these states were after abolishing Khalifat not Turkey which and assisted implementing Secularism in Turkey which indicates that Ataturk was backed by West.
Thanks to the Wahhabi/Salafin support of the infidels, Ottoman Turkey was on the verge becoming a European colony. Mustafa Kemal Pasha was no angel and he committed many mistakes, but he was a true Mujahid.
Nothing but Blasphemous remark!
Btw Turkey is pretty much a European colony, NATO ally and in verge of becoming EU member.
Mustafa Kemal saved the honour of Turks and the Muslims by beating Franco/English/Italian/Greek Alliance.
Stop trolling. If depriving Muslim women of covering their body is considered honor for you then you have no ghairat?
I salute Ata Turk.
:yahoo:
 
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Don't try it bro

Ataturd supporters also support the global euroamerican terror strikes on Muslim everywhere

They also use the same rhetoric as the white man against the Muslims ... they will say how the Saudis fought against the Ottoman empire while at the same time support the dissolution of the Ottoman empire
 
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Lets get your facts straight. Jinnah's had special love affair with Zoroastrians, his political career started by zoroastrians political leaders, married to a zoroastrian women who practiced black magic and only changed her religion to Islam to keep Muslim's ego satisfied. To our amusement his daughter also ended up marrying a zoroastrian man! Oh yes, you can pretend this is all false.

During his early youth as law student at Lincolns Inn, Quaid canvassed for Dadabhai Naoroji who was contesting the Finsbury park seat as Liberal Party candidate in 1892. Quaid was then only 16 years old. Quaid was also influenced by Gokhale in his early political life as a young member of Indian National congress, why not accuse him of being in love with Hindus as well.

It is well-known that Sir Dinshaw was against this marriage and Ruttie married Jinnah out of love. Her father did not attend her marriage or her funeral. She died at the young age of 29 and was buried at the Khoja cemetery according to Muslim rites. Accusing a women who left every thing for the love of the Quaid and even changed her religion to please him, of black magic, can only be a product most vile and bigoted mind. But of course Shias are considered non-Muslims by Taliban and their supporters.

Dina Jinnah married Neville Wadia against her fathers will an was disowned by the Quaid when he failed to dissuade her from marrying a non-Muslim.

The very fact that you have stooped to such depths to malign father of our nation, is ample evidence that section of the bigots that hated the Quaid and the Muslim League and tried their level best to stop creation of Pakistan is very much alive thru their next generation. This section of Pakistani Muslims is carrying on their anti-State activities thru support of Taliban (JI Munawwar Hassan supporting Sufi Mohammed of Swat), and spreading dirt against father of the nation. Their bigotry does not stop here, but carries on to the heroes of brotherly nations.

May be I should have listened to Saadi who says “jawab e jahelaan khamosh manad” meaning it is better to keep quite when your opponent is ignorant. I admit Quaid e Azam was a human being and thus had his faults and frailties. However I am a Pakistani, and I cannot let a slur on the father of our nation go unanswered. In my opinion, any Pakistani who insults the Quaid is an enemy of the state.
 
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i known very well SherAli type mentality people , while people like Ataturk if needed would fight and die for islam ( his mum was even covered , he has many photos of him showing hes a clear muslim ) people who talk so much about islam woudlnt move their skin believe me , if e.g ottoman empire was secular and it was failing ataturk maybe would have done i dno a islamic republic or something or khaliphate or something do you understand what i mean? he would have done an opposite or another system to change a failing system and backstabbers like Damat ferit pasha.
 
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