Ataturk's Legacy vs Caliphate and implications for Pakistan

[Abu Zolfiqar]

so officially we have traitors in this very forum, who have Pakistani flags in their profiles


hating on Jinnah and Iqbal and other great men who were cornerstone for creation of Pakistan



go f*ck off

 

[Armstrong]

It is true that Ata Turk in an effort to pull Turks from the Middle Ages into the 20th century attempted to modify Islam.

Islam is the religion sent from Allah. No human has the power to ban it or threaten it. Any such attempts are very short term. Islam is in the blood of ordinary Turk. We now have a country that is modern and prosperous and Turkish population is now reverting to traditional Islamic practices.

In my humble view, Mustafa Kemal performed an admirable service to Islam by defeating the Anglo French Alliance in the aftermath of WW1 and should be honoured as a hero of the Islamic world.

It appears that some people wouldn’t mind being a colony of the Infidels if it means that they can keep to their traditional values. Iqbal was fully aware of this slave mentality that is why he said:

Mulla ko jo masjid main hai sajdeh ki ijazat
Nadaan ye samajhta hai ke Islam hai azaad.

Young man, unless I'm mistake, it was 'Mulla ko jo hai Hind mein sajdeh ki ijazat' !

 

[Armstrong]

Maybe he was your baap but not ours.

Thats funny coming from a guy who adores Jinnah, Iqbal when these two so much deeply enlightened by Ataturk that they wanted to be just like him.

Lets get your facts straight. Jinnah's had special love affair with Zoroastrians, his political career started by zoroastrians political leaders, married to a zoroastrian women who practiced black magic and only changed her religion to Islam to keep Muslim's ego satisfied. To our amusement his daughter also ended up marrying a zoroastrian man! Oh yes, you can pretend this is all false.

Oh he was indeed my Father and I exclaim that proudly ! Now go back to the States or wherever the heck you came from for...Pakistan doesn't need sons like you.

Jinnah sahib's political career was indeed started by a Parsi for Naroji was indeed a Parsi and an exceptional man to say the least; it is my firm belief that had he lived on instead of Mr.Gandhi and Mr.Nehru coming into the picture...things may have turned out so much better.

As for Mrs.Jinnah ! You insolent son of a gun - show some respect ! Pulling stuff out of your arse wouldn't make it right; she was an exceptional lady and her loss was sorely felt by Jinnah Sahib throughout the remainder of his days.

And by many accounts Miss Dina was disowned by her father for marrying a Non-Muslim man. And even if she wasn't...it doesn't make an iota's difference to the fact that Jinnah gave up his everything for us and by God we love him for that !

Either way if you have a problem with the Quaid-e-Azam then I do suggest that you change the flags because without him there would be no Pakistan ! In fact...I urge you too, for we don't need the likes of you being associated with Pakistan.

 

[haviZsultan]

Its amazing how people can insult the founding fathers of the country for their own pathetic gains. The Jamaat E Islami stood against the creation of Pakistan in the beginning yet they continue to attack his memory even today.

Pakistan was meant to be a secular country. Proof of this can be found in the fact that Quaid called a Qadiani his son and the Islamic Republic wasn't attached to Pakistan's name until his death. He feared Mullah's would misuse the term to strengthen their hold on power which is exactly what they actually did.

We can only understand these things once we stop equating secularism to something anti-Islamic. Turkey is an example in this. It is working as an intermediary and doing more for Muslims than any country. It even denied US its territory for an attack on Iraq. It is trying to solve the Iranian-Saudi dispute.

There are no better Muslim countries to look at today for guidance than Turkey and Malaysia (especially under Mahatir Mohammed)

 

[Farooq]

Your ideology is not any different from a red neck labeling every single Muslim a terrorist! So basically anyone who questions Ataturk, or Jinnah is a terrorist Do you have any evidence to support your claim? Even my fart sound more logical then rhetoric comments by liberal douchebags behind a computer.

Again, your logic is wrong because I consider ataturk kafir and some what jinnah but i am not against the creation of Pakistan simply because I would not want to be part of Hindustan.

glad you got this right.


No dough saudi's assisted in destruction of Khalifat but did Ataturk do anything to save Khilafat or atleast restore it before he is excluded from any blame?
Your Kamalist fantasy has taken a new height. First of all it was Ottoman that that fought not Turkey and all these states were after abolishing Khalifat not Turkey which and assisted implementing Secularism in Turkey which indicates that Ataturk was backed by West.
Nothing but Blasphemous remark!
Btw Turkey is pretty much a European colony, NATO ally and in verge of becoming EU member.

Stop trolling. If depriving Muslim women of covering their body is considered honor for you then you have no ghairat?

These liberal parasites have destroyed Pakistan inch by inch with their anti-Islamic agenda of supporting secular leaders in the name of "preserving" Islam. The reason the liberal fascists in Pakistan support characters like Attaturk because their agenda is also to ban Islam in Pakistan and officially make it a secular state.

chor ka saath chor daythaa hey

Oh he was indeed my Father and I exclaim that proudly ! Now go back to the States or wherever the heck you came from for...Pakistan doesn't need sons like you.

Jinnah sahib's political career was indeed started by a Parsi for Naroji was indeed a Parsi and an exceptional man to say the least; it is my firm belief that had he lived on instead of Mr.Gandhi and Mr.Nehru coming into the picture...things may have turned out so much better.

As for Mrs.Jinnah ! You insolent son of a gun - show some respect ! Pulling stuff out of your arse wouldn't make it right; she was an exceptional lady and her loss was sorely felt by Jinnah Sahib throughout the remainder of his days.

And by many accounts Miss Dina was disowned by her father for marrying a Non-Muslim man. And even if she wasn't...it doesn't make an iota's difference to the fact that Jinnah gave up his everything for us and by God we love him for that !

Either way if you have a problem with the Quaid-e-Azam then I do suggest that you change the flags because without him there would be no Pakistan ! In fact...I urge you too, for we don't need the likes of you being associated with Pakistan.

You ignorant fool! Pakistan was created by the will of Allah. Had Allah not wanted the creation of Pakistan there would have been no Pakistan regardless of how many praises you sing of Jiinnah. Moreover, the very reason Pakistan is a abysmal state is because people like you hold greater regard for Jinnah than for the laws of Allah and The Beloved Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم, hence we face the wrath of Allah

 

[Armstrong]

You ignorant fool! Pakistan was created by the will of Allah. Had Allah not wanted the creation of Pakistan there would have been no Pakistan regardless of how many praises you sung of your beloved Jiinnah.

The fate of nations just as the fate of individuals are indeed determined by God but if we are to ignore all those through whom He works His miracles then we might as well not consider Umar, Abu Bakar, Ali, Usman and even the Prophet (PBUH) as little more than robots ! The fact that we don't is in recognition of the inherent greatness of all these exceptional individuals that caused their Creator to choose them to do His handiwork to begin with !

Jinnah - our beloved, is no different ! He single-handedly, against impossible odds, gave us 'Pakistan' and in the process sacrificed all that he had. If ingrates like you can't recognize that sacrifice and the enormity of that feat then let us end this conversation for I'd rather not waste either of our time in teaching to another why we love Quaid-e-Azam so much !

 

[Farooq]

He works His miracles then we might as well not consider Umar, Abu Bakar, Ali, Usman and even the Prophet (PBUH) as little more than robots !

<--- Asthugfirullah. Blinded by the love of jinnah you have unknowingly lost respect for The Prophet &#1589;&#1604;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1607; &#1608; &#1587;&#1604;&#1605; and the Sahaba(Radi Allah unho)

 

[Armstrong]

Its amazing how people can insult the founding fathers of the country for their own pathetic gains. The Jamaat E Islami stood against the creation of Pakistan in the beginning yet they continue to attack his memory even today.

Pakistan was meant to be a secular country. Proof of this can be found in the fact that Quaid called a Qadiani his son and the Islamic Republic wasn't attached to Pakistan's name until his death. He feared Mullah's would misuse the term to strengthen their hold on power which is exactly what they actually did.

We can only understand these things once we stop equating secularism to something anti-Islamic. Turkey is an example in this. It is working as an intermediary and doing more for Muslims than any country. It even denied US its territory for an attack on Iraq. It is trying to solve the Iranian-Saudi dispute.

There are no better Muslim countries to look at today for guidance than Turkey and Malaysia (especially under Mahatir Mohammed)

I'd respectfully disagree with you on that point ! I think one finds ample evidence in the Quaid's speeches and in the works and words of Iqbal that Pakistan was supposed to have a profound and pronounced Islamic character to it. Having said that it was never supposed to be a theocracy or the bigoted state that it has become today ! If I have understood the Quaid and Iqbal, I think they wanted Pakistan to be a vibrant pluralistic democracy where no one would be discriminated on the basis of their color, class or creed (religion !), where all would be equal irrespective of where they come from but a Pakistan nonetheless that would show to the world the excellence of the alternative paradigms that Islam provides in terms of its legal, economic, social and political dimensions. In other words a Pakistan where someone as exceptional as Justice (R) Rana Bhagwandas could be the President of Pakistan and yet a Pakistan where we'd be allowed to come up with a system of finance that takes Rib'bah or a certain kind of interest out of the equation and comes up with a truly fair and justice economic model that conforms to the Islamic ideals.

In essence - Pluralism and Democracy not a separation of religion and state !

 

[Ottoman-Turk]

Jinnah - Ataturk

 

[Loy Afghanistan]

These liberal parasites have destroyed Pakistan inch by inch with their anti-Islamic agenda of supporting secular leaders in the name of "preserving" Islam. The reason the liberal fascists in Pakistan support characters like Attaturk because their agenda is also to ban Islam in Pakistan and officially make it a secular state.

chor ka saath chor daythaa hey



You ignorant fool! Pakistan was created by the will of Allah. Had Allah not wanted the creation of Pakistan there would have been no Pakistan regardless of how many praises you sing of Jiinnah. Moreover, the very reason Pakistan is a abysmal state is because people like you hold greater regard for Jinnah than for the laws of Allah and The Beloved Prophet &#1589;&#1604;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1607; &#1608; &#1587;&#1604;&#1605;, hence we face the wrath of Allah

You live in the United States, hence a secular Republic with a small Muslim minority, correct? Was it the "wrath of Allah" that compelled you to MIGRATE there? Was it the "wrath of Allah" that compells you to REMAIN there? Is it the "wrath of Allah" that induces you to use an INNOVATION that was made in Secular nations, but only to criticise those who remained behind but yearn to live more like you today?

Behold the Munafiqeen!

 

[Loy Afghanistan]

The fate of nations just as the fate of individuals are indeed determined by God but if we are to ignore all those through whom He works His miracles then we might as well not consider Umar, Abu Bakar, Ali, Usman and even the Prophet (PBUH) as little more than robots ! The fact that we don't is in recognition of the inherent greatness of all these exceptional individuals that caused their Creator to choose them to do His handiwork to begin with !

Jinnah - our beloved, is no different ! He single-handedly, against impossible odds, gave us 'Pakistan' and in the process sacrificed all that he had . If ingrates like you can't recognize that sacrifice and the enormity of that feat then let us end this conversation for I'd rather not waste either of our time in teaching to another why we love Quaid-e-Azam so much !

I'd respectfully disagree with you on that point ! I think one finds ample evidence in the Quaid's speeches and in the works and words of Iqbal that Pakistan was supposed to have a profound and pronounced Islamic character to it. Having said that it was never supposed to be a theocracy or the bigoted state that it has become today ! If I have understood the Quaid and Iqbal, I think they wanted Pakistan to be a vibrant pluralistic democracy where no one would be discriminated on the basis of their color, class or creed (religion !), where all would be equal irrespective of where they come from but a Pakistan nonetheless that would show to the world the excellence of the alternative paradigms that Islam provides in terms of its legal, economic, social and political dimensions. In other words a Pakistan where someone as exceptional as Justice (R) Rana Bhagwandas could be the President of Pakistan and yet a Pakistan where we'd be allowed to come up with a system of finance that takes Rib'bah or a certain kind of interest out of the equation and comes up with a truly fair and justice economic model that conforms to the Islamic ideals.

In essence &#8211; Pluralism and Democracy not a separation of religion and state !

Mm-hmm...uh-huh....would you mind explaining to the forum about the &#8220;sacrifices&#8221; that Jinnah supposedly made? He was instrumental in dividing Indians by carving out a Muslim state, but ended up at the helm as &#8220;Governor General&#8221; to the Crown, wearing the same old crisp suits he did in jolly old England while millions of people were displaced and lost their lives. Unless you can enlighten this ignorant Afghan, the only sacrifice I can see was in his dignity.

He also declared Muhammad bin Qasim as &#8220;the first Pakistani&#8221;. By default, he eulogized the Arab compulsion of your forefathers into submission before force of arms in the name of Islam. In doing this, he celebrated all the violence and mayhem that stem from within Pakistan today. As for his &#8220;Pluralism&#8221;, I will make an entirely reasonable observation that his gesture had more to do with his having been a member of the Ismaili minority, than out of any noble intent.

Behold the other face of the Munafiqeen!

 

[Armstrong]

Mm-hmm...uh-huh....would you mind explaining to the forum about the &#8220;sacrifices&#8221; that Jinnah supposedly made? He was instrumental in dividing Indians by carving out a Muslim state, but ended up at the helm as &#8220;Governor General&#8221; to the Crown, wearing the same old crisp suits he did in jolly old England while millions of people were displaced and lost their lives. Unless you can enlighten this ignorant Afghan, the only sacrifice I can see was in his dignity.

He also declared Muhammad bin Qasim as &#8220;the first Pakistani&#8221;. By default, he eulogized the Arab compulsion of your forefathers into submission before force of arms in the name of Islam. In doing this, he celebrated all the violence and mayhem that stem from within Pakistan today. As for his &#8220;Pluralism&#8221;, I will make an entirely reasonable observation that his gesture had more to do with his having been a member of the Ismaili minority, than out of any noble intent.

Behold the other face of the Munafiqeen!

'His marriage fell apart due to his long hours divided between his political struggle and his legal practice', 'he gave up his political career to take up a cause unpopular with the Indian National Congress whereas he was a giant amongst the Azads, the Nehrus and the Patels of the INC...that sacrifice finally culminated in him giving up the Prime Ministership of the largest free nation on earth', 'he had to gave up a life of quiet retirement in Bombay for a life of continued struggle as a 70 something man suffering from tuberculosis' and 'he finally died of exhaustion and consumption for his Pakistan'. Considering how communally charged the divide between Muslims and Non-Muslims had become with everyone of our differences being pronounced and magnified a thousand times...he went from being the Greatest Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity to a staunch proponent for greater rights being afforded to the Muslims of the Indian subcontinent to ensure that in a Westminster styled democracy we don't end up becoming social and political minorities too. When those struggles failed after the better part of his life spent in that engagement and he found the INC unmoved did he finally pick up the demand for 'Pakistan'. The fact that millions were willing to butcher each other and did in '47 is testament to how deep the communal divide was.

And he never mentioned that Muhammad bin Qasim was the first Pakistani or that we need to eulogize the Arabs or their civilization ! And no, contrary to the popular narrative out there, we don't think of ourselves as Arabs and nor do we eulogize Muhammad bin Qasim; in our history books he is mentioned as the first Arab invader to come to the Indian Subcontinent and how his Conquest of Sindh was the first advent of Islam in this region...nothing more..nothing less. Had Jinnah wanted a Pakistan that was a photocopy of the Arab lands to the East he wouldn't have proposed Pakistan to be a Federation of Nations; even today the Pukhtoons, the Baloch, the Sindhis, the Punjabis and about a dozen smaller ethnic groups celebrate their unique culture and language with vibrancy and pride and no none of us wears a kefiyeh or utters 'Ahlan Wasahlan' to each other whilst walking down the street.

And no he wasn't an Ismaili either...he had converted to Shi'ism by many accounts and Sunnism by others for he never prescribed to either of this labeling. And your assertion that because he belonged to a religious minority within the Muslims is indicative of his desire for there to be a Pluralistic Pakistan is completely unfounded for here was a man who was excommunicated by Mullahs by the dozens and yet he commanded the respect and loyalty of millions Muslims irrespective of their religious disposition hence why millions immigrated to Pakistan - the Shias, the Sunnis, the Qadiyans...the whole lot !

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

hey afghan --- yeah youre in the position to talk

using your (ill)logic, Afghanistan was a "british carved" land that was "carved out" from the Persian Empire/Modern day Iran


the Muslims of the sub-continent wanted a land and they got it. Sorry to get overly jazbati here, but I myself am Pashtun and proud to be Pakistani.

has nothing to do with "dividing indians" b/c india as we know it today wasnt even a country until 1947 which is the same year we got our independence

 

[Bhairava]

he went from being the Greatest Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity to a staunch proponent for greater rights being afforded to the Muslims of the Indian subcontinent

Hmm... no..Direct Action Day ? He wasnt the greatest ambassador for any unity.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

During his early youth as law student at Lincolns Inn, Quaid canvassed for Dadabhai Naoroji who was contesting the Finsbury park seat as Liberal Party candidate in 1892. Quaid was then only 16 years old. Quaid was also influenced by Gokhale in his early political life as a young member of Indian National congress, why not accuse him of being in love with Hindus as well.

The point here is, Jinnah' life was influenced by non-muslims rather then Islam and its utterly retarded to slightly associate Jinnah with Islam because he refrained from the PRACTICE of the religion on his personal life and the muslims. Tell me if their is any documented facts of him observing holy months, fasting, or did he even perform any hajj or umerah? The answer is no because he was too busy enjoying whisky and pork sandwiches in pubs with his english friends.

It is well-known that Sir Dinshaw was against this marriage and Ruttie married Jinnah out of love. Her father did not attend her marriage or her funeral. She died at the young age of 29 and was buried at the Khoja cemetery according to Muslim rites. Accusing a women who left every thing for the love of the Quaid and even changed her religion to please him, of black magic, can only be a product most vile and bigoted mind. But of course Shias are considered non-Muslims by Taliban and their supporters.

Exactly, Ruttie changed her religion to "please" him (Jinnah) so Jinnah could satisfy the egos of the Muslims and it was not sake of Allah that she changed her religion other wise she would have been a practicing Muslim.
following documentation are presented by authors in support of Jinnah.
"As Ruttie's health deteriorated, her curiosity began to wander into books about seances and the afterlife. she was drifting into a mystical world of her own."
"With her family ostracized and jinnah unable to provide attention, she withdrew into the surreal world of the supernatural and the metaphysical. she began to participate in seances, looking to contact the spirits of people long dead, perhaps hoping to gain some consolation in the hope of a better after-life."

Dina Jinnah married Neville Wadia against her fathers will an was disowned by the Quaid when he failed to dissuade her from marrying a non-Muslim.

Had Jinnah been a practicing Muslim or slightly devoted to Allah he would have made sure to raise his daughter righteously and piously but instead he chose to give her the freedom to chose her own life the way she wanted. Dina herself admits that she was never interested in Quran lessons that Jinnah's sister would give.

The very fact that you have stooped to such depths to malign father of our nation, is ample evidence that section of the bigots that hated the Quaid and the Muslim League and tried their level best to stop creation of Pakistan is very much alive thru their next generation.

Just to let you know, Muslim League was formed by Aga Khan who himself was a freemason and a member of Grand lodge of AF & AM of India.

This section of Pakistani Muslims is carrying on their anti-State activities thru support of Taliban (JI Munawwar Hassan supporting Sufi Mohammed of Swat), and spreading dirt against father of the nation. Their bigotry does not stop here, but carries on to the heroes of brotherly nations.

I do not even wanna go down to your level to try to win a argument by such accusing.

it is better to keep quite when your opponent is ignorant

Yes you said it right so round of applause for being a loser.