At least one country is trying to listen to its 'Father of the Nation' - Ashok Swain

[Jaanbaz]

Okay.

I was only questioning some Pakistanis saying Pakistan should be secular instead of Islamic, which in my opinion invalidates the cause of partition on the grounds that Muslims and Hindus are different nations, thus requiring different countries. If you are to be secular what was the point of partition?

A Muslim majority country can be secular and free from hatred of Mullahs or Hindu fanatics. That's what the Qaid had in mind and that is the reason why Qaid had appointed minority ministers in his government and the first anthem was actually written by a Hindu poet. Since you're a Bengali why don't you make your country more Islamic instead telling Pakistanis to become more Mullah state, mind your own business please.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The truth is both India and Pakistan had a majority culture that was desi. There are two manifestations of this desi culture, the Muslim iteration and the Hindu iteration. Sort of two sides of the same coin. This desi culture was native to South Asia and was backward, traditional, supersitious, narrow minded, bigoted, averse to change. This backwardness [desi] had largely dominated South Asia with millions living in poverty and ignorance, generation after generation entirely uneffected by who was ruling them. Moghuls, British etc.

However in the latter part of British rule a small sliver of South Asians were co-opted and educated in the ways of modern world by British. This small group of people would go onto form the elite in both Muslim and Hindu communities. Men like Jinnah, Nehru, Iqbal, Gandhi were all products of British rule. They were 'brown sahibs'. After 1947 this group too over in Pakistan and India.

Nehru gave india it's British influenced Indian state. With some exceptions so did Pakistan. However under this thin layer of "gora sahibs" the vast ocean of desi masses continued living untouched by the loft ideas imbibed by their rulers. By 1970s changing face of Pakistani society mean't the "desi mass" began to bite the rule of "gora sahibs" by insisting their desi culture being incorporated by the state. Bhutto had felt this change and began to sing the songs of the "desi mass" even when he was not one. Bhutto's agreement to making Ahmedi's a class apart was the triumph of "desi mass" in Pakistan who impulse was cloaked as "Islam". That process only picked speed in 1980s and it reached it's climax in 2010s. However I believe the "desi mass" is now in retreat as the new generation wants benefits of modern world.

In India the "desi mass" is of course articulated as Hinduism. Hindutva is the face of "desi mass" in India. The majority in India have been slow on the take and allowed "brown sahibs" to prevail over the state but over the last two decades they have began to make their pressure felt. Ayodha and Gujrat massacre are analogous to the anti-Ahmedi actions in Pakistan of 1970s.

I think the reason was the "desi mass" has been slow in India is down to economics. India over the decades lagged behind Pakistan and most of the "desi mass" were locked in grinding poverty. Now trickle down economics and increasing urbanization will see Indian "gora sahibs" drowned out. Expect lot of chaos in India over next two decades.

@Joe Shearer @Nilgiri @OsmanAli98

I'm just writing a detailed essay on this, on almost exactly the lines that you mentioned, but with additional analysis examining why the changeover in India happened when it happened. It isn't what you mentioned in your last para.; I'll try to get you the essay once it's finished; it's been delayed over two weeks due to my poor health.

 

[Nilgiri]

Rubbish. Just because Pakistan's situation isn't close to perfect in terms of chosen economic indices, Pakistanis are not even permitted to comment on the mistakes made by Indians? This ideology is ludicrous and if anything, suitably demonstrates the arrogance-infested mindset of so many middle class Indians who have grown up with and subconsciously accepted the negative connotations of a caste concept. Some are apparently worthy of giving lectures to Hindustan, others are not, and that distinction is made on the basis of coloured maps.

"Economic indices" = "Freedom/institutional indices"

Where did I say its "not permitted"? I'm just saying the more you guys talk and whinge on this stuff, the more your prove stuff to others outside your little echo-chamber. Feel free to keep doing that, its your choice after all.

There's a litany of posts and threads by well established "mard-e-momin" types all across this forum on the subject of "caste" too...in fact so much that most wonder if anything has been learned from the operation searchlight episode (which also gains all kind of "justification" emotionally on same basis)....and what such blatant hate (forget "subconcious") did to your political boundaries. No release of the full commission's findings either still to this day (geee I wonder why). So its again pretty rank hypocrisy.

You are absolutely free to be hypocrites. Now please go grovel some more in front of a sheikh that's busy giving a medal to your self-declared evil-incarnate the next day....and get triggered when others chuckle at that.

Or avert your eyes and concerns for "iron brother" that cages fellow muslims (of ethnic relation to other iron brothers who now understand better who you picked in the end and why) with iron fist and has destroyed (from clear remote sensing evidence from space) a whole host of mosques.....cuz hey, they get a free pass given the bill-payment and patting you on head.

So please keep going. Its not cringey at all. It doesn't undermine your group at all...you are showing "strength" and "consistency"....rather than playing patty-cake on your own faces.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Really don't give a hoot what a typical bradfordstani spambot says to begin with....stuff like: "Economic indices" = "Freedom/institutional indices" ...is amusing though.

Where did I say its "not permitted"? I'm just saying the more you guys talk and whinge on this stuff, the more your prove stuff to others outside your little echo-chamber. Feel free to keep doing that, its your choice after all.

There's a litany of posts and threads by well established "mard-e-momin" types all across this forum on the subject of "caste" too...in fact so much that most wonder if anything has been learned from the operation searchlight episode (which also gains all kind of "justification" emotionally on same basis)....and what such blatant hate (forget "subconcious") did to your political boundaries. No release of the full commission's findings either still to this day (geee I wonder why). So its again pretty rank hypocrisy.

You are absolutely free to be hypocrites. Now please go grovel some more in front of a sheikh that's busy giving a medal to your self-declared evil-incarnate the next day....and get triggered when others chuckle at that.

Or avert your eyes and concerns for "iron brother" that cages fellow muslims (of ethnic relation to other iron brothers who now understand better who you picked in the end and why) with iron fist and has destroyed (from clear remote sensing evidence from space) a whole host of mosques.....cuz hey, they get a free pass given the bill-payment and patting you on head.

So please keep going. Its not cringey at all. It does not fully and firmly help your enemy cause at all...you are showing "strength" and "consistency"....rather than playing patty-cake on your own faces.

Riggggggggghhhhhhht. Tell you what. You keep posting pretty colourful pictures of various indices, whether institutional or economic or anything else that supposedly "proves" your relentless garbage stream polluting these pages like the Ganges, and keep lazily stabbing in the dark at which little stereotyped "box of Pakistanis" (bradfordstani???) I apparently neatly fit into, while the rest of us post meaningful points that actually warrant a decent rebuttal - yknow, those things you call "echo chambers of hypocrisy".

You can deny deny deny the sad truths of the topics being discussed all you like and put whole colouring books of Indian superiority in ANY irrelevant index up as supposed "evidence" of your views but I think you'll find that you repeatedly miss the mark, especially with your delightful little character summary of me! I'm touched you spent such time pillaging your A-grade material to find such worthy insults to use on me (bradfordstani??).

You honestly think that rather than refuting the arguments being made, by simply broadsiding with a barrage of your usual generic tripe - however colourful it is - lends a single degree of credibility to your handiwork?

Seems that Bhakts and Hindu "liberals" are getting more asinine by the minute.

 

[Nilgiri]

Riggggggggghhhhhhht. Tell you what. You keep posting pretty colourful pictures of various indices, whether institutional or economic or anything else that supposedly "proves" your relentless garbage stream polluting these pages like the Ganges, and keep lazily stabbing in the dark at which little stereotyped "box of Pakistanis" (bradfordstani???) I apparently neatly fit into, while the rest of us post meaningful points that actually warrant a decent rebuttal - yknow, those things you call "echo chambers of hypocrisy".

You can deny deny deny the sad truths of the topics being discussed all you like and put whole colouring books of Indian superiority in ANY irrelevant index up as supposed "evidence" of your views but I think you'll find that you repeatedly miss the mark, especially with your delightful little character summary of me! I'm touched you spent such time pillaging your A-grade material to find such worthy insults to use on me (bradfordstani??).

You honestly think that rather than refuting the arguments being made, by simply broadsiding with a barrage of your usual generic tripe - however colourful it is - lends a single degree of credibility to your handiwork?

Seems that Bhakts and Hindu "liberals" are getting more asinine by the minute.

Its like 1% (and I'm being kind) of what a whole bunch of "iron bro" posters here post in chinese characters about you lot... behind your backs too. So please, if it offends, too bad....boo-hoo. Yes I look down on the vast majority of "one flag pak, one flag british" shopkeeper/clerk with "time to waste on phone between customers" kind of mob that post here to tune of 99% of the spam crying. If you are one of the chosen few "above it all", good for you. My bad assumption then.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Its like 1% (and I'm being kind) of what a whole bunch of "iron bro" posters here post in chinese characters about you lot... behind your backs too. So please, if it offends, too bad....boo-hoo. Yes I look down on the vast majority of "one flag pak, one flag british" shopkeeper/clerk with "time to waste on phone between customers" kind of mob that post here to tune of 99% of the spam crying. If you are one of the chosen few "above it all", good for you. My bad assumption then.

Well you keep obsessing over what Chinese posters say about Pakistani posters if you think that really bothers people here - I don't think popularity contests really matter to anyone above about 15. Meanwhile, you might want to keep at least one eye on the real competition.

"Yes I look down on the vast majority of "one flag pak, one flag british" shopkeeper/clerk with "time to waste on phone between customers" kind of mob that post here to tune of 99% of the spam crying. If you are one of the chosen few "above it all", good for you. My bad assumption then."

That's okay. Can't really blame a bhakt for thinking like one and assuming the rest of the world is some neat little caste diagram...coloured in no doubt.

 

[SingHee]

I don't think popularity contests really matter to anyone above about 15.

They are the self-proclaimed world's largest democracy, so popularity contests must mean a lot to them.

One has to dream.

 

[CriticalThinker02]

would have been good if this was true - unfortunately Pakistan officially and legally rejected this view of Jinnah and in 1973, adopted a new constitution which stipulated that all laws are to conform to the injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Quran and Sunnah.[28]

Say, "O disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." Holy Quran 109:1-6

 

[Thamizh Puli]

Say, "O disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." Holy Quran 109:1-6

all but 1st line sounds real. But the 1st line makes it un-objective because it ignores the fact the others are also believers, in something else (what I worship and what you worship). May be it is a translation issue

 

[WarKa DaNG]

Thank God we are muslims and living in Pakistan

 

[AfrazulMandal]

Say, "O disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." Holy Quran 109:1-6

This does not mean you can worship whatever you want. Just to clarify. Allah SWT knows best.