At least 29 civilians killed in US-led air strikes on Raqqa

[Aramagedon]

At least 29 civilians killed in US-led air strikes on Raqqa

Jul 27, 2017

Source: TRTWorld and agencies

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said at least eight children were among the dead in the raids on suspected Daesh targets.

Photo by: AFP Archive

Smoke billows following an airstrike on the western frontline of Raqqa on July 17, 2017.

A barrage of US-led coalition air strikes killed 29 civilians on Wednesday in Syria's Raqqa, half of which is still held by Daesh, a war monitor said.

"At least eight children are among the dead," said Syrian Observatory for Human Rights chief Rami Abdel Rahman.

Backed by the US-led coalition, the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) have waged a months-long offensive on Raqqa and have successfully captured half the city.

With Wednesday's deadly raids, at least 325 civilians, including 51 children, have died in the city since the SDF penetrated Raqqa less than two months ago, according to the Observatory.

Tens of thousands of civilians have fled the escalating violence in recent months, but the United Nations estimates that up to 50,000 people remain trapped inside the city.

Those who have managed to escape have told harrowing tales of dodging sniper fire and mines or paying smugglers to lead them out.

Last month, the emergency coordinator for northern Syria for the group Doctors Without Borders (MSF), Puk Leenders, said the battle in Raqqa had created a humanitarian crisis.

"There is supply but it's very, very limited and the needs of the population are very high," Leenders said.


What is crimes of innocent Syrian civilians!!!!

US has become a way more wild since Trump.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

At least 29 civilians killed in US-led air strikes on Raqqa

Jul 27, 2017

Source: TRTWorld and agencies

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said at least eight children were among the dead in the raids on suspected Daesh targets.

Photo by: AFP Archive

Smoke billows following an airstrike on the western frontline of Raqqa on July 17, 2017.

A barrage of US-led coalition air strikes killed 29 civilians on Wednesday in Syria's Raqqa, half of which is still held by Daesh, a war monitor said.

"At least eight children are among the dead," said Syrian Observatory for Human Rights chief Rami Abdel Rahman.

Backed by the US-led coalition, the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) have waged a months-long offensive on Raqqa and have successfully captured half the city.

With Wednesday's deadly raids, at least 325 civilians, including 51 children, have died in the city since the SDF penetrated Raqqa less than two months ago, according to the Observatory.

Tens of thousands of civilians have fled the escalating violence in recent months, but the United Nations estimates that up to 50,000 people remain trapped inside the city.

Those who have managed to escape have told harrowing tales of dodging sniper fire and mines or paying smugglers to lead them out.

Last month, the emergency coordinator for northern Syria for the group Doctors Without Borders (MSF), Puk Leenders, said the battle in Raqqa had created a humanitarian crisis.

"There is supply but it's very, very limited and the needs of the population are very high," Leenders said.


What is crimes of innocent Syrian civilians!!!!

US has become a way more wild since Trump.

If there is a crime, there is a law that was violated. Which law?

The article does not indicate that any law was broken.
A military target was attacked, and it resulted in civilians killed.

What proof do You have that it was not a military target?

Should we assume that this is just another of Your unsubstantiated rantings?

 

[YeBeWarned]

they are Collateral Damage , as they are Muslims or Arabs so they cant be innocent , or their lives don't matter at all, on one side those Civilians are stuck between ISIS , FSA .. and now they are stuck between US and Russian Air strikes , and no one wants to accept their mistakes .

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

they are Collateral Damage , as they are Muslims or Arabs so they cant be innocent , or their lives don't matter at all, on one side those Civilians are stuck between ISIS , FSA .. and now they are stuck between US and Russian Air strikes , and no one wants to accept their mistakes .

I beg to differ.
Collateral Damage by definition IS always civilians.

Whether they are innocent or not, cannot be judged from a distance.
You can for certain not judge it.
Laws of war give no extra protection for "innocent" civilians.

There are no special harsh treatments for Muslims or Arabs.
During the invasion of Normandy, about 40,000 French civilians became Collateral Damage
in one day, when Caen was carpet bombed, to dislocate the Hitlerjugend
SS panzer division. They were not Muslims.
You just want to whine about Muslims beeing ill treated by everyone else.

The life of a civilian is cheap according to the laws of war.
In order to be safe, they need to be separated from combatants.
ISIS is stopping civilians from escaping, and do not separate fighting units from civilians.
That is the main cause of civilian casualties, together with incomplete information.

The soldiers/officers ordering the targets to be attacked by the USAF are most likely Muslims.
They are responsible for any civilian deaths if the pilot hits the designated target.
The pilot can only be responsible if he bombs something else, though his own mistakes.

The pilot will have no clue about what is to be attacked, but I guess You want to
put blame on "infidels" instead of accepting the fact that it is Muslims killing Muslims.

 

[YeBeWarned]

I beg to differ.
Collateral Damage by definition IS always civilians.

Of course, so anyone dying in Europe from ISIS falls in to that category to ? Imagine ISIS attack a US base or European base, and in process they killed bunch of Civilians so they are right to say that civilians who died were Collateral Damage ? it is WAR between 2 parties ..and as per you laws of war does not care for any civilians, with this logic even 3000 Americans were Collateral Damage for AQ .. That is a BS logic , doesn't care if some law is written by bunch of ARse holes who never lose someone in war .

Whether they are innocent or not, cannot be judged from a distance.
You can for certain not judge it.
Laws of war give no extra protection for "innocent" civilians.

so who will judge , You ? your position is biased as you consider mine ..
if any LAW that can not protect the lives of innocent civilians, this means that law is evil , people preaching that law are evil , and should be thrown into gutters ..

There are no special harsh treatments for Muslims or Arabs.
During the invasion of Normandy, about 40,000 French civilians became Collateral Damage
in one day, when Caen was carpet bombed, to dislocate the Hitlerjugend
SS panzer division. They were not Muslims.
You just want to whine about Muslims beeing ill treated by everyone else.

So now you want to bring WW2 ? so if that is the case, the biggest mass murderers in history are White Europeans , you agree ?
I don't whine about anything, i just give my opinion over matters, without any doubts .. i am not like Double standard bigoted individual like you who are implying killing Civilians are part of LAW that you people care..

The life of a civilian is cheap according to the laws of war.
In order to be safe, they need to be separated from combatants.
ISIS is stopping civilians from escaping, and do not separate fighting units from civilians.
That is the main cause of civilian casualties, together with incomplete information.

If you think that Civilian lives are cheap , or if your Armies or WAR LAWS imply that , than there is no difference between you and ISIS/AQ bastards who killed indiscriminately .
and that is exactly i say in my first post, Civilians are stuck between ISIS and SAA fight, they are stuck between US and Russian Air strikes.. but in the end its the common civilian who is dying while people like you sit in safety talking about how a Civilian life is cheap .. i bet you will say same for American , European civilians too ..but even than i will disagree with you .

The soldiers/officers ordering the targets to be attacked by the USAF are most likely Muslims.
They are responsible for any civilian deaths if the pilot hits the designated target.
The pilot can only be responsible if he bombs something else, though his own mistakes.

its not just About Muslims, its about innocent Muslims who didn't sign up for Asshead or FSA , USA trying to remove a Dictator and Russians are trying to protect that Dictator , what about those who did not want any of that, but still they are dying and unwanted death ? is there any Justice you can give to these people ?
have Europeans or American ever punish those pilots who launch strikes over Civilian populations ? i doubt that

The pilot will have no clue about what is to be attacked, but I guess You want to
put blame on "infidels" instead of accepting the fact that it is Muslims killing Muslims.

I never even mentioned word infidel in my posts, in fact i never get into that BS fight .. you in other thread try very hard to imply that just because i am Muslim i will take side with Muslim that means you have no argument except for running from one topic to another like a headless chicken .. Muslims are suffering because of their own internal issues , but that does not mean American or Europeans are saints try to save lives ...

 

[flamer84]

Collateral damage can't be avoided although the US. ,humanly,tries to limit them.Unlike other countries like Iran,Russia which mass murder civilians with their primitive, unguided projectiles.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Of course, so anyone dying in Europe from ISIS falls in to that category to ? Imagine ISIS attack a US base or European base, and in process they killed bunch of Civilians so they are right to say that civilians who died were Collateral Damage ? it is WAR between 2 parties ..and as per you laws of war does not care for any civilians, with this logic even 3000 Americans were Collateral Damage for AQ .. That is a BS logic , doesn't care if some law is written by bunch of ARse holes who never lose someone in war .

If an attack on a military target in Europe by uniformed combatants, wearing weapons openly,
results in the deaths of civilians, it is collateral damage.
If a person dressed in civilian clothes fires bursts of rounds from a concealed Uzi,
against the back of a soldier, also killing civilians, it is a terrorist attack.
The reason is that the attack was illegal.
Collateral Damage only occurs when the attack is otherwise legal.

When attacking a military target, there must still be consideration about proportionality.

The World Trade Center is not a military target.
If a lieutenant (military target) dressed in uniform, visits the World Trade Center,
the disproportionality between killing the lieutenant and 3000 civilians makes the target illegal.

Using civilian aircraft to attack the World Trade Center is an attack on this aircraft as well.
It is purely civilian, most likely containing non-US citizens thus illegal to attack.

so who will judge , You ? your position is biased as you consider mine ..
if any LAW that can not protect the lives of innocent civilians, this means that law is evil , people preaching that law are evil , and should be thrown into gutters ..

I do not judge such things without an investigation, You do.

International Law does protect civilians, by stating that combatants should separate themselves from civilians.
ISIS does not do this, which results in deaths of civilians. That is the evil part.

It is the duty of a nation to protect people in the following order.
1. Own Civilians
2. Own Troops
3. Enemy Civilians
4. Enemy Troops

If the law would protect any military using human shields, then military would use human shields, so the alternative is definitely evil.

So now you want to bring WW2 ? so if that is the case, the biggest mass murderers in history are White Europeans , you agree ?
I don't whine about anything, i just give my opinion over matters, without any doubts .. i am not like Double standard bigoted individual like you who are implying killing Civilians are part of LAW that you people care..

That is a racist view. You are making all White Europeans responsible for the Nazi Holocaust
Another view is that White Europeans stopped the biggest genocide ever.

There is no law of war stating that it is forbidden to kill civilians.
Killing civilians is allowed by international law under certain circumstances,
and that is a law that all Muslim countries has signed up to comply with.
International Laws definitely contains items to minimize civilian casualties.

If you think that Civilian lives are cheap , or if your Armies or WAR LAWS imply that , than there is no difference between you and ISIS/AQ bastards who killed indiscriminately .
and that is exactly i say in my first post, Civilians are stuck between ISIS and SAA fight, they are stuck between US and Russian Air strikes.. but in the end its the common civilian who is dying while people like you sit in safety talking about how a Civilian life is cheap .. i bet you will say same for American , European civilians too ..but even than i will disagree with you .

Those are YOUR laws as well. If people do not follow the laws, civilians will die.

If you do not see the difference between following laws intended to minimize the killing of civilians,
and indiscriminate killings of civilians, then I can't help You.

its not just About Muslims, its about innocent Muslims who didn't sign up for Asshead or FSA , USA trying to remove a Dictator and Russians are trying to protect that Dictator , what about those who did not want any of that, but still they are dying and unwanted death ? is there any Justice you can give to these people ?
have Europeans or American ever punish those pilots who launch strikes over Civilian populations ? i doubt that

What justice are you prepared to give those that does not want to live under the boot of a Dictator?
Since there are hardly any Western Troops in Syria, the fighting is done by Syrians,
as well as losers and criminals from Muslim communities worldwide that come at the call of the
self-appointed Caliph.

What is there to punish, if there is no crime?
If there is a crime ,then there will be a court martial, and the soldier(s) are punished.
Happens all the time.

I never even mentioned word infidel in my posts, in fact i never get into that BS fight .. you in other thread try very hard to imply that just because i am Muslim i will take side with Muslim that means you have no argument except for running from one topic to another like a headless chicken .. Muslims are suffering because of their own internal issues , but that does not mean American or Europeans are saints try to save lives ...

You focus on putting the blame on the non-Muslims, even though the responsibility mostly lies with the Muslims.
Explain that!

 

[YeBeWarned]

If an attack on a military target in Europe by uniformed combatants, wearing weapons openly,
results in the deaths of civilians, it is collateral damage.
If a person dressed in civilian clothes fires bursts of rounds from a concealed Uzi,
against the back of a soldier, also killing civilians, it is a terrorist attack.
The reason is that the attack was illegal.
Collateral Damage only occurs when the attack is otherwise legal.

When attacking a military target, there must still be consideration about proportionality.

The World Trade Center is not a military target.
If a lieutenant (military target) dressed in uniform, visits the World Trade Center,
the disproportionality between killing the lieutenant and 3000 civilians makes the target illegal.

Using civilian aircraft to attack the World Trade Center is an attack on this aircraft as well.
It is purely civilian, most likely containing non-US citizens thus illegal to attack.

You do realize that in Civil War , there is no Official Military target , you are supporting a rebel Fraction in Syria so you have no right to interfere in others matter let alone order Strikes that lead to civilian deaths, and as for Target logic you give, even if there is some Military personnel in WTC, i will stand my ground and say that Civilian lives must not be harmed even as CD .. because civilians death leads to more chaos and relatives picking up arms as reaction , ask yourself if I kill your entire family by unfair means , blow them into piece , you will be full of vengeance too , you might or might not pick up arms against me but not all humans are same to be judged.
My point About AQ attack on WTC, was that as per AQ they were in an open war against the US as some members claim. so they might use the CD justification .. but in my personal opinion this CD that cause civilians death, should not be go unpunished .

I do not judge such things without an investigation, You do.

International Law does protect civilians, by stating that combatants should separate themselves from civilians.
ISIS does not do this, which results in deaths of civilians. That is the evil part.

It is the duty of a nation to protect people in the following order.
1. Own Civilians
2. Own Troops
3. Enemy Civilians
4. Enemy Troops

If the law would protect any military using human shields, then military would use human shields, so the alternative is definitely evil.

If you want me to post the links for just US Air strikes over Civilians and Allies soldiers , than you will agree that i am not judging without prove ? i send those likes to Gambit and since i got no reply from him ..
You say otherwise in previous post, you say Civilians have no laws in WAR LAWS, and they die so people just invented a Fancy terms Collateral Damage to put those death under the carpet .

of the duty, but tell which duty US is providing in Syria ?
US is Attacking SAA armies and Air bases which is Fighting ISIS ( terror Group )
US is openly supporting FSA and Al-Nusra front
US is arming Kurds which has conducted numerous Terror strikes inside Turkey

US has no business been in Syria, or poke their nose into a Arab Civil war matter ..

Human shields are used as effective strategy, but i disagree with anyone who did that ( mostly ISIS/AQ ) , but question is what is the law say to kill few ISIS terrorist with the cost of bunch of innocent civilians ? and if yes, will you apply the same logic to your own Civilians ? if there is ISIS holding in a building, just drop a JDAM and level the entire building with it ?

That is a racist view. You are making all White Europeans responsible for the Nazi Holocaust
Another view is that White Europeans stopped the biggest genocide ever.

There is no law of war stating that it is forbidden to kill civilians.
Killing civilians is allowed by international law under certain circumstances,
and that is a law that all Muslim countries has signed up to comply with.
International Laws definitely contains items to minimize civilian casualties.

I didn't specifically say Holocaust , it is just one disgusting part of WW2 .. but tell me , concentration camps are not the reason million of people die in ww2 right ? Civilian die by the Millions from All sides, and yeah it was a genocide as per logic west apply to Muslims today, entire cities were wiped out , and people were executed by the hundreds . and as for Another View is just living in denial, the same people who never tend to see any wrong in white people , i am sure same people will also deny that thousands of Muslims were butchered in Jerusalem when the Crusader took it right ?

I think you should read your previous post again and what you talk about Civilian deaths in war .. and by the WAR Syria is not directly into War with US , so the same laws cant be applied ..

Those are YOUR laws as well. If people do not follow the laws, civilians will die.

If you do not see the difference between following laws intended to minimize the killing of civilians,
and indiscriminate killings of civilians, then I can't help You.

What is there to punish, if there is no crime?
If there is a crime ,then there will be a court martial, and the soldier(s) are punished.
Happens all the time.[/QUOTE]

What is there to punish, if there is no crime?
If there is a crime ,then there will be a court martial, and the soldier(s) are punished.
Happens all the time.[/QUOTE]

No one Follow laws my dear ... You think US follow LAWs in Vietnam ? Afghanistan Iraq , Somalia .. talk to a American and he will tell you stories how Russians are evil and never follow Law .. why ? because west and Russian as ideological Difference, Wars are never about protecting civilians, even Raped were used as a Weapon to terrorize Civilians, would you agree ? I wont ..

I do see the difference between Following a LAW and indiscriminately killing civilians that's what differ us from Terrorist , but if it was done 2-3 times but US has a history of Killing civilians and call it CD , Remember the Air strike in Iraq when in the times of Saddam ? +/- 400 Civilians die in just one Air strike ..you can put the blame on Sadaam or anyone you want but Reality is that those 400 Civilians will never get Justice from any International LAW or UN .

What justice are you prepared to give those that does not want to live under the boot of a Dictator?
Since there are hardly any Western Troops in Syria, the fighting is done by Syrians,
as well as losers and criminals from Muslim communities worldwide that come at the call of the
self-appointed Caliph.

What is there to punish, if there is no crime?
If there is a crime ,then there will be a court martial, and the soldier(s) are punished.
Happens all the time.

the justice is simple, let them decide what they want for themselves, No country is asking US to choose a System to run their country, If KSA ask US to rule your country by Shariah law will they accept ? and if KSA has power over US so they attack US to implement Shariah so it will be Justified by your own laws ? why its your matter to change Govt regimes ? you went into Iraq to remove a dictator who were killing Civilians , and in result you kill more civilians and destroy infrastructure ? if that is fair that pigs can fly ..
Syria War is a civil war, not a military confrontation US lead strikes hit Syria Army which is a genuine stake holder in Syria war, US is no one in that matter except they want to kill more people in the shadow of WOT ..
Asshead was killing Civilians , you start strikes to target more civilians.. why not let Syria and Asshead decide what they want ? or you want to say minority views must be respected and change systems or even Govt over that? and if that is the case, i wonder if you advice Americans to pick up arms against trump or would it be fair if Russia start providing Military and arm support to those American ? you want to tell me that the laws are applied to benefit only west but when it comes to Brown or Arabs those LAWs can be twisted as you want .. this is not Transparency my friend .

The crime is decide by whom ? you don't see Civilians death as Crimes , you don't see Military Targets who are fighting terrorist as Crimes, you don't see any thing as crime which West do , so how anyone can convince such people ? there are accepted stories of US about Droning the civilians , tell me how many pilots were court martial or put behind bars ? in fact on numerous times US itself destroy International Laws , by bombing civilians, illegal invasions , arming the rebels, inhumane ways of Torture , black sites etc .. how many were hanged ? or how many times US was invaded ?
just because US has mighty Military that is why they believe they can triumph any law or country they want, US is just like all other Power hungry empire which crumbles the less powerful neighbor . Don't pretend to be angels cause you are not ..

the Video you posted, i cant see it .. ( some error )

You focus on putting the blame on the non-Muslims, even though the responsibility mostly lies with the Muslims.
Explain that!

My focus is on Neutrality , i never even once bring the Infidel Evil sort of theory , all i am saying that these Air strikes on Civilians are crimes against the Humanity and must be punished accordingly , i don't care if a Yazidi, Muslim , Christian , Jew or Hindu die unjustly or unfairly , i wont put that under the Carpet of Collateral damage and sleep tight in the night believing that i never did anything wrong .

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

You do realize that in Civil War , there is no Official Military target , you are supporting a rebel Fraction in Syria so you have no right to interfere in others matter let alone order Strikes that lead to civilian deaths, and as for Target logic you give, even if there is some Military personnel in WTC, i will stand my ground and say that Civilian lives must not be harmed even as CD .. because civilians death leads to more chaos and relatives picking up arms as reaction , ask yourself if I kill your entire family by unfair means , blow them into piece , you will be full of vengeance too , you might or might not pick up arms against me but not all humans are same to be judged.
My point About AQ attack on WTC, was that as per AQ they were in an open war against the US as some members claim. so they might use the CD justification .. but in my personal opinion this CD that cause civilians death, should not be go unpunished .

The casualties in WTC was a result of an attack against a civilian target.
Collateral Damage can only occur on attacks on Military Targets.

If you want me to post the links for just US Air strikes over Civilians and Allies soldiers , than you will agree that i am not judging without prove ? i send those likes to Gambit and since i got no reply from him ..
You say otherwise in previous post, you say Civilians have no laws in WAR LAWS, and they die so people just invented a Fancy terms Collateral Damage to put those death under the carpet .

of the duty, but tell which duty US is providing in Syria ?
US is Attacking SAA armies and Air bases which is Fighting ISIS ( terror Group )
US is openly supporting FSA and Al-Nusra front
US is arming Kurds which has conducted numerous Terror strikes inside Turkey

There is a UNSC resolution saying that everyone should fight ISIS in Syria and Iraq.
This gives the US right to attack ISIS in Syria.
In Iraq, they are working with the government.
If Syria attacks the US or allies in their war on ISIS, it is self defense.

The Attack on the Air Base was as You well know a warning, to stop using Sarin.
Do You care about the Sarin victims, or only those victimś that are results of US attacks?

The US is supporting FSA, but no evidence has ever been presented that they support al-Nusra.
It is known that US supported rebels have defected to Al-Nusra or traded their weapons,
but that is not the same thing.
It has been shown that KSA and Gulf States support al-Nusra.

US has no business been in Syria, or poke their nose into a Arab Civil war matter ..

Human shields are used as effective strategy, but i disagree with anyone who did that ( mostly ISIS/AQ ) , but question is what is the law say to kill few ISIS terrorist with the cost of bunch of innocent civilians ? and if yes, will you apply the same logic to your own Civilians ? if there is ISIS holding in a building, just drop a JDAM and level the entire building with it ?

Law says that an attack must be proportional, but law also says that judgment is made
based on the information available to the attacker.
If ISIS snipers are firing from a building, it is a military target.
If nothing is known about who else is in the building, it can be attacked.
If it is known that the building contains 200 civilians, it may be considered disproportional.

The number of civilians inside the building is not important for the determination if it is a war crime
or not, only the number known to the attacker.
If it is known that the sniper in the building can explode a dam, which will drown 10,000
civilians, then bombing the building is OK, even if it is known that it contains 200 civilians.

I didn't specifically say Holocaust , it is just one disgusting part of WW2 .. but tell me , concentration camps are not the reason million of people die in ww2 right ? Civilian die by the Millions from All sides, and yeah it was a genocide as per logic west apply to Muslims today, entire cities were wiped out , and people were executed by the hundreds . and as for Another View is just living in denial, the same people who never tend to see any wrong in white people , i am sure same people will also deny that thousands of Muslims were butchered in Jerusalem when the Crusader took it right ?

I think you should read your previous post again and what you talk about Civilian deaths in war .. and by the WAR Syria is not directly into War with US , so the same laws cant be applied ..

Concentration Camps are definitely the reason for millions of deaths during WWII.
Since there were many millions dying from the war, there were other reasons as well.

Western Armies are trained in the Geneva Convention.
That does not mean that it is always followed, but at least that is the intention.
Punishment is handed out for violating the convention, but as violating the convention is shameful,
it can happen that violations are overlooked/ignored by local commanders.

Violations are quite well documented by historians so no, they are not overlooked by the Western World.

In contrast, Islamist rarely if ever even show the intention of following the Geneva convention.

If the Syrian Army is firing on US or US allies, the Geneva Convention applies.

No one Follow laws my dear ... You think US follow LAWs in Vietnam ? Afghanistan Iraq , Somalia .. talk to a American and he will tell you stories how Russians are evil and never follow Law .. why ? because west and Russian as ideological Difference, Wars are never about protecting civilians, even Raped were used as a Weapon to terrorize Civilians, would you agree ? I wont ..

I do see the difference between Following a LAW and indiscriminately killing civilians that's what differ us from Terrorist , but if it was done 2-3 times but US has a history of Killing civilians and call it CD , Remember the Air strike in Iraq when in the times of Saddam ? +/- 400 Civilians die in just one Air strike ..you can put the blame on Sadaam or anyone you want but Reality is that those 400 Civilians will never get Justice from any International LAW or UN .

Civilians are at the mercy of events during war.
If 10,000 military targets are attacked, and each attack kills 5 civilians, it is no crime.
If one known non-military target is attacked and one civilian is killed, it is a war crime.

the justice is simple, let them decide what they want for themselves, No country is asking US to choose a System to run their country, If KSA ask US to rule your country by Shariah law will they accept ? and if KSA has power over US so they attack US to implement Shariah so it will be Justified by your own laws ? why its your matter to change Govt regimes ? you went into Iraq to remove a dictator who were killing Civilians , and in result you kill more civilians and destroy infrastructure ? if that is fair that pigs can fly ..
Syria War is a civil war, not a military confrontation US lead strikes hit Syria Army which is a genuine stake holder in Syria war, US is no one in that matter except they want to kill more people in the shadow of WOT ..
Asshead was killing Civilians , you start strikes to target more civilians.. why not let Syria and Asshead decide what they want ? or you want to say minority views must be respected and change systems or even Govt over that? and if that is the case, i wonder if you advice Americans to pick up arms against trump or would it be fair if Russia start providing Military and arm support to those American ? you want to tell me that the laws are applied to benefit only west but when it comes to Brown or Arabs those LAWs can be twisted as you want .. this is not Transparency my friend .

ISIS makes terrorist attacks all over the world.
The UNSC has asked the whole world to stop ISIS, and the US is participating.

If you see a man beat and rape his 12 year old daughter, and his wife
keeps her locked in, and threatens to kill her kid sister if she informs the police.
Are You going to let the family solve the problem within the family?

The US has actually done very small efforts in trying to overthrow Assad.
More so KSA and the Gulf states.
Iran has supported Assad from the start.

The crime is decide by whom ? you don't see Civilians death as Crimes , you don't see Military Targets who are fighting terrorist as Crimes, you don't see any thing as crime which West do , so how anyone can convince such people ? there are accepted stories of US about Droning the civilians , tell me how many pilots were court martial or put behind bars ? in fact on numerous times US itself destroy International Laws , by bombing civilians, illegal invasions , arming the rebels, inhumane ways of Torture , black sites etc .. how many were hanged ? or how many times US was invaded ?
just because US has mighty Military that is why they believe they can triumph any law or country they want, US is just like all other Power hungry empire which crumbles the less powerful neighbor . Don't pretend to be angels cause you are not ..

the Video you posted, i cant see it .. ( some error )

I state what the requirements are to legally/illegally kill a civilian.
It has nothing to do with if the attacker is from the West or elsewhere.

The link was to a court martial of a drone operator for illegally killing civilians.
http <colon> //www <dot> theonion <dot> com/video/predator-drone-court-martialed-for-afghani-civilia-20316

The Iraqi "torture" affair resulted in court martials and long prison times.

When a dictator is repressing the citizens, it is the duty of the rest of the world to help them out.
I note that You do not complain about people helping him slaughtering his people.

Your racist comment about everyone in the West beeing responsible for the actions of the few, is noted.
You forget that there are a lot of people in the West working to expose any wrong doing.

My focus is on Neutrality , i never even once bring the Infidel Evil sort of theory , all i am saying that these Air strikes on Civilians are crimes against the Humanity and must be punished accordingly , i don't care if a Yazidi, Muslim , Christian , Jew or Hindu die unjustly or unfairly , i wont put that under the Carpet of Collateral damage and sleep tight in the night believing that i never did anything wrong .

They are not even close to "Crimes vs Humanity".

If you are at a shooting range, and fire at a target, and someone has placed a kid behind the target.
You kill the kid, which you did not see.
What is your punishment for killing an innocent kid?

 

[GiannKall]

" I took a gun and shot at you. Its your fault that you didnt dodge the bullet since you know that it kills". Stupid argument

 

[Oldman1]

they are Collateral Damage , as they are Muslims or Arabs so they cant be innocent , or their lives don't matter at all, on one side those Civilians are stuck between ISIS , FSA .. and now they are stuck between US and Russian Air strikes , and no one wants to accept their mistakes .

Its not the question of innocence. Its the situation where the battles are in the cities where innocent people are living in. Along with enemy that are hiding in. Trust me if the U.S. wanted to kill innocent people, it would have been thousands a day with conventional means. It sucks I know but its war.

 

[Hack-Hook]

I beg to differ.
Collateral Damage by definition IS always civilians.

Whether they are innocent or not, cannot be judged from a distance.
You can for certain not judge it.
Laws of war give no extra protection for "innocent" civilians.

There are no special harsh treatments for Muslims or Arabs.
During the invasion of Normandy, about 40,000 French civilians became Collateral Damage
in one day, when Caen was carpet bombed, to dislocate the Hitlerjugend
SS panzer division. They were not Muslims.
You just want to whine about Muslims beeing ill treated by everyone else.

The life of a civilian is cheap according to the laws of war.
In order to be safe, they need to be separated from combatants.
ISIS is stopping civilians from escaping, and do not separate fighting units from civilians.
That is the main cause of civilian casualties, together with incomplete information.

The soldiers/officers ordering the targets to be attacked by the USAF are most likely Muslims.
They are responsible for any civilian deaths if the pilot hits the designated target.
The pilot can only be responsible if he bombs something else, though his own mistakes.

The pilot will have no clue about what is to be attacked, but I guess You want to
put blame on "infidels" instead of accepting the fact that it is Muslims killing Muslims.

yes you are right , the 1800 civilian Lebanese who died in 2006 with the help of guided munition and smart bombs were acceptable collateral damage but 60 Israeli civilian who died when Hezbollah fired artillery rockets at Israeli position were blatant act of terror .

If an attack on a military target in Europe by uniformed combatants, wearing weapons openly,
results in the deaths of civilians, it is collateral damage.
If a person dressed in civilian clothes fires bursts of rounds from a concealed Uzi,
against the back of a soldier, also killing civilians, it is a terrorist attack.
The reason is that the attack was illegal.
Collateral Damage only occurs when the attack is otherwise legal.

When attacking a military target, there must still be consideration about proportionality.

The World Trade Center is not a military target.
If a lieutenant (military target) dressed in uniform, visits the World Trade Center,
the disproportionality between killing the lieutenant and 3000 civilians makes the target illegal.

Using civilian aircraft to attack the World Trade Center is an attack on this aircraft as well.
It is purely civilian, most likely containing non-US citizens thus illegal to attack.




I do not judge such things without an investigation, You do.

International Law does protect civilians, by stating that combatants should separate themselves from civilians.
ISIS does not do this, which results in deaths of civilians. That is the evil part.

It is the duty of a nation to protect people in the following order.
1. Own Civilians
2. Own Troops
3. Enemy Civilians
4. Enemy Troops

If the law would protect any military using human shields, then military would use human shields, so the alternative is definitely evil.


That is a racist view. You are making all White Europeans responsible for the Nazi Holocaust
Another view is that White Europeans stopped the biggest genocide ever.

There is no law of war stating that it is forbidden to kill civilians.
Killing civilians is allowed by international law under certain circumstances,
and that is a law that all Muslim countries has signed up to comply with.
International Laws definitely contains items to minimize civilian casualties.



Those are YOUR laws as well. If people do not follow the laws, civilians will die.

If you do not see the difference between following laws intended to minimize the killing of civilians,
and indiscriminate killings of civilians, then I can't help You.



What justice are you prepared to give those that does not want to live under the boot of a Dictator?
Since there are hardly any Western Troops in Syria, the fighting is done by Syrians,
as well as losers and criminals from Muslim communities worldwide that come at the call of the
self-appointed Caliph.

What is there to punish, if there is no crime?
If there is a crime ,then there will be a court martial, and the soldier(s) are punished.
Happens all the time.



You focus on putting the blame on the non-Muslims, even though the responsibility mostly lies with the Muslims.
Explain that!

well using a uzi with civilian clothes is a terrorist act my question is what's the difference with firing a tomahawk from 2500km away ?

when Islamic jihad blow USA barrack in Beirut it was called a terrorist attack while the target was a military one . when USA bombed civilian shelter in Baghdad it was collateral damage while the target clearly was civilian , or when they bombed medic without border hospitals ?
can you tell me why ?

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

yes you are right , the 1800 civilian Lebanese who died in 2006 with the help of guided munition and smart bombs were acceptable collateral damage but 60 Israeli civilian who died when Hezbollah fired artillery rockets at Israeli position were blatant act of terror .

Apparently the deaths were acceptable to Hezbollah.
Why would they have started it otherwise?

I do not make any claims about the legality of the Israeli strikes.
You have to know much more about the circumstances to make a judgement.
It is well known that sending unguided rockets against cities is a war crime.

If there are 1800 civilians killed by Israeli actions that does not violate the laws of war,
and 60 civilians killed by Hezbollah actions which violates the laws of war,
then only Hezbollah has committed war crimes.

 

[Solomon2]

That is a racist view. You are making all White Europeans responsible for the Nazi Holocaust
Another view is that White Europeans stopped the biggest genocide ever.

The Allies knew about the extermination camps. They had the necessary military capability and intelligence to destroy them via air bombardment before D-Day. Yet not one bomber mission was assigned to destroy the crematoria or attack the railroad lines leading to them; in the final weeks of the war the Nazis actually diverted resources to accelerate the exterminations.

yes you are right , the 1800 civilian Lebanese who died in 2006 with the help of guided munition and smart bombs were acceptable collateral damage but 60 Israeli civilian who died when Hezbollah fired artillery rockets at Israeli position were blatant act of terror .

That's right. Because it's the deeds in context that matter, not the deaths themselves, that determine whether an act is a crime or not.

 

[My-Analogous]

I beg to differ.
Collateral Damage by definition IS always civilians.

Whether they are innocent or not, cannot be judged from a distance.
You can for certain not judge it.
Laws of war give no extra protection for "innocent" civilians.

There are no special harsh treatments for Muslims or Arabs.
During the invasion of Normandy, about 40,000 French civilians became Collateral Damage
in one day, when Caen was carpet bombed, to dislocate the Hitlerjugend
SS panzer division. They were not Muslims.
You just want to whine about Muslims beeing ill treated by everyone else.

The life of a civilian is cheap according to the laws of war.
In order to be safe, they need to be separated from combatants.
ISIS is stopping civilians from escaping, and do not separate fighting units from civilians.
That is the main cause of civilian casualties, together with incomplete information.

The soldiers/officers ordering the targets to be attacked by the USAF are most likely Muslims.
They are responsible for any civilian deaths if the pilot hits the designated target.
The pilot can only be responsible if he bombs something else, though his own mistakes.

The pilot will have no clue about what is to be attacked, but I guess You want to
put blame on "infidels" instead of accepting the fact that it is Muslims killing Muslims.

So by your defination, if ISIS or any other shit attack and killed your family in the name of collateral damage, then you will accept it as collateral damage?