Army high command, not Bhutto, responsible for 1971 East Pak fiasco, says d

[T-Faz]

Actually these figures seem a bit surprising.

I am not sure any of them is correct. They would show a rise of Hindu population by 14 times!

The Pakistani or Indian population has barely increased by four times in these 60 years.

The half a million number of Hindus in West Pakistan as per the 1951 census is correct.

This seven million figure is being reported by the Pakistan Hindu Council and even if we go by other modest figures which would put them at around four million, the increment is still substantial.

Pak Hindu MPs slam judge, walk out of Parliament - World News - IBNLive

 

[DelhiDareDevil]

The half a million number of Hindus in West Pakistan as per the 1951 census is correct.

This seven million figure is being reported by the Pakistan Hindu Council and even if we go by other modest figures which would put them at around four million, the increment is still substantial.

Pak Hindu MPs slam judge, walk out of Parliament - World News - IBNLive

Then again, the increment of muslims living in India from time of partition, should be as great if not greater then Hindu increase in Pakistan.

Btw, highly doubt the census would be accurate from that time at all. +/- 10%

 

[FaujHistorian]

Then again, the increment of muslims living in India from time of partition, should be as great if not greater then Hindu increase in Pakistan.

Btw, highly doubt the census would be accurate from that time at all. +/- 10%

Many Indians and even Paks do not know the following basic facts of Hindus in Pakistan.

Pre-1947 Majority of "would be Pakistani" Hindus lived in Punjab.
Pre-1947 Majority of "would be Indian" Muslims lived in UP, Bihar, Punjab and smaller percentage in other parts.

In pre-1947, %age of Muslims in Indian East Punjab was >55%
In pre-1947, %age of Hindus+Sikhs in Pakistani West Punjab was >15%

In post-1947, %age of Muslims in Indian East Punjab became ZERO
In post-1947, %age of Hindus+Sikhs in Pakistani West Punjab became ZERO

Unless you know these basic historical facts, all your statistical analysis will be incorrectly skewed.

peace.


p.s. 1. Pakistan should have done a lot better job in protecting minorities.
p.s. 2. luckily Hindus in other parts of Pakistan survived the carnage, and similarly Muslims living in other parts of India survived too.

 

[T-Faz]

Then again, the increment of muslims living in India from time of partition, should be as great if not greater then Hindu increase in Pakistan.

Btw, highly doubt the census would be accurate from that time at all. +/- 10%

Even with substantial fluctuation in numbers, the population of minorities has increased in Pakistan.

It's common misconception that religious minority numbers have decreased and this is due to people observing the population percentage of minorities. Also the figures present or presented of pre-71 era included the religious minorities of Bangladesh and this would make for a wrong comparison.

But I have to state that a high number of religious minorities fled Pakistan in the 80's. This included a very high number of wealthy Parsi's, Christians and others.

Parsi population is half of what it used to be in the early 80's according to some comparisons.

 

[Sinnerman108]

My great grand father did not migrate to Pakistan when it was created. How could anyone leave everything behind and for to a foreign land just because a bunch of f--ing politicians decided to create a separate state for their enrichment. Wouldn't a Muslim in a United pre-1947 India be wealthier and more equal than he already is?

I am glad my Hindu neighbors were not paranoid enough to kill my family for no fault of ours...

I am so glad that you said what you said.

Let me quote some thing to you " if the love of your parents, wives, children, WEALTH, Property and the business that so you so fear may go bad exceeded your love of Allah then sit and wait for your judgment".

When the country was created in the name of Islam, any one who decided not to migrate, and now is hypothesizing about the wealth that they might make being a part of Pagan culture !

Well ... as I always say, they are either Indian or Muslims. So such thing as Indian Muslim.

 

[Peshwa]

I am so glad that you said what you said.

Let me quote some thing to you " if the love of your parents, wives, children, WEALTH, Property and the business that so you so fear may go bad exceeded your love of Allah then sit and wait for your judgment".

When the country was created in the name of Islam, any one who decided not to migrate, and now is hypothesizing about the wealth that they might make being a part of Pagan culture !

Well ... as I always say, they are either Indian or Muslims. So such thing as Indian Muslim.

Your statement sounds as though Allah himself ordered the creation of a state for the Muslims of the Subcontinent....

Pakistan was the creation of politicians...and most importantly humans....who are motivated by the same greed and lust for power as you and I....

Its funny how you try to belittle the choice of Muslims who decided to stay back in India while at the same time support the idea of "self determination" for the Muslims of Kashmir....
Contradiction galore!

 

[FaujHistorian]

Your statement sounds as though Allah himself proclaimed the creation of a state for the Muslims of the Subcontinent....
...

Partition of British India was first suggested by a Hindu leader of Congress way back in 1922. Thus the true "Mufakkar-e-Pakistan" was a Hindu and not a Muslim such as falsely "accused" Dr. Iqbal. Jinnah too was the biggest champion of united India all the way until 1947.


Anyone who tries to drag Allah or Mohammad in these earthly decisions is surely doing a disservice to the religion.

Similarly anyone who accuses Muslims for partitioning India does a disservice to history. Muslims dominated provinces were simply kicked out of India first and then the same Congressis turned around accused the Muslim dominated provinces for being pro-partition.

.....

Its funny how you try to belittle the choice of Muslims who decided to stay back in India while at the same time support the idea of "self determination" for the Muslims of Kashmir....

No one was supposed to leave their ancestral places not in India and not in Pakistan. The carnage happened only in Punjab where:

In pre-1947, %age of Muslims in Indian East Punjab was >55%
In pre-1947, %age of Hindus+Sikhs in Pakistani West Punjab was >15%

In post-1947, %age of Muslims in Indian East Punjab became ZERO
In post-1947, %age of Hindus+Sikhs in Pakistani West Punjab became ZERO

Everywhere else the "majority" stayed put as this was the most desired outcome in the eyes of both ML and IC.

peace:

p.s. The issues with the "princely state of Kashmir" should not be confused with the pre-1947 provinces. Do read the non-Sarkari Indian school history before commenting on Kashmir and getting confused about it. Islamist in Pakistan too are confused about Kashmir when they say it is a"Muslim" issue. It ain't. Thank you.

 

[T-Faz]

My great grand father did not migrate to Pakistan when it was created. How could anyone leave everything behind and for to a foreign land just because a bunch of f--ing politicians decided to create a separate state for their enrichment. Wouldn't a Muslim in a United pre-1947 India be wealthier and more equal than he already is?

I am glad my Hindu neighbors were not paranoid enough to kill my family for no fault of ours...

Your statement sounds as though Allah himself proclaimed the creation of a state for the Muslims of the Subcontinent....

Pakistan was the creation of politicians...and most importantly humans....who are motivated by the same greed and lust for power as you and I....

Its funny how you try to belittle the choice of Muslims who decided to stay back in India while at the same time support the idea of "self determination" for the Muslims of Kashmir....
Contradiction galore!

Greed and enrichment, are you sure about that?

So Jinnah, a man who knew that he was about to die created Pakistan so he can amass wealth, as far as I can recall he gave up his assets in India and all his personal wealth went to the state of Pakistan. If Jinnah wanted power, he would have taken the role of the leader of United India which was offered to him. Instead he created a country where there was absolutely nothing and in this process, he lost all his wealth and eventually his life.

He did not even get the power that he would have got had he lived a few years, he knew he was about to die and he achieved his task, to secure equal right for Muslims of British india.

Dont know if this is greed or a way of accumulating wealth, his relatives who reside in Pakistan such as Liaquat Merchant are not rich either.

Now lets looks at other Leaguers and how they have amassed enormous wealth supposedly because of Pakistan.

Nawab Liaqat Ali Khan left large amounts of real estate and wealth, his children live lives of common middle class citizens, they lost a lot because of the creation of Pakistan.

Liaquat is fond of saying that he came to Karachi as a refugee, just like 6,000,000 other citizens of the new state. Behind him in India he left extensive real estate, was amused recently to receive a notice from India's internal revenue department reminding him to pay his taxes on it.

PAKISTAN: The Glory of the Moguls - TIME

Take one of the richest Muslim mens of those times, Sir Feroz Khan Noon, his wealth was considerably effected with the partition and his children today live an upper-middle class lifestyle.

What about Iskander Mirza, he lost out on a lot when he opted for Pakistan, the same happened to all Leaguers including Aga Khan, Zafarullah Khan and all those names who were a proponent for the idea of Pakistan.

Do you know how much these men who were at the front for the idea of Pakistan left behind. They lost considerable assets, land holdings and businesses in India when the moved to Pakistan.

They and their children ended up with little of what they could have had without Pakistan.

So much for that greed and power theory.

Btw Ferrari, mind your language, we aren't discussing literally ****ing politicians, I am sure you have heard stories about Lord Mountbottom and German Bodybuilders.

 

[Mutee]

I am not a bhutto fan but whenever this country has a faced humiliation army played a humongous part in it History is a witness for this argument

 

[Leader]

@ T-Faz its in "Iqbal's letters to mr, Jinnah" you can consult it.

if you had said J was the man of principles and champion of minority rights, a opposition politician, I would have agreed, unlike a mindless debating about was Jinnah secular?

and lastly J led the movement for Pakistan, and Pakistan was created through the plateforum of AIML...

------------

I think this debate is off topic, so I stop here and wait for appropriate thread to discuss.

 

[Amalek]

I am so glad that you said what you said.

Let me quote some thing to you " if the love of your parents, wives, children, WEALTH, Property and the business that so you so fear may go bad exceeded your love of Allah then sit and wait for your judgment".

When the country was created in the name of Islam, any one who decided not to migrate, and now is hypothesizing about the wealth that they might make being a part of Pagan culture !

Well ... as I always say, they are either Indian or Muslims. So such thing as Indian Muslim.

What did people gain from the creation of Pakistan? Hindus who were left stranded on the wrong side of the border suffered tremendously. East and West Punjab were cleansed on religious lines. East and West Bengal suffered enormously. Who gained from this disaster?

Are Pakistanis more well-off now? Did your utopian project succeed? Indian Muslims have to pay the price whenever anything wrong happens in Kashmir, or if there is a terrorist strike in India.

The Pakistan project was similar to the Zionist project of Israel. They wanted a purely Jewish state, you wanted a purely Islamic state. They drove out the Palestinian living amongst them. You drove out the Hindus...

 

[roadrunner]

Many Indians and even Paks do not know the following basic facts of Hindus in Pakistan.

Pre-1947 Majority of "would be Pakistani" Hindus lived in Punjab.
Pre-1947 Majority of "would be Indian" Muslims lived in UP, Bihar, Punjab and smaller percentage in other parts.

In pre-1947, %age of Muslims in Indian East Punjab was >55%
In pre-1947, %age of Hindus+Sikhs in Pakistani West Punjab was >15%

In post-1947, %age of Muslims in Indian East Punjab became ZERO
In post-1947, %age of Hindus+Sikhs in Pakistani West Punjab became ZERO

Unless you know these basic historical facts, all your statistical analysis will be incorrectly skewed.

peace.


p.s. 1. Pakistan should have done a lot better job in protecting minorities.
p.s. 2. luckily Hindus in other parts of Pakistan survived the carnage, and similarly Muslims living in other parts of India survived too.

You and the Vinod troll have your figures all wrong. East Pakistan contained the majority of Pakistan's Hindus.

West Pakistan's Hindu population has always remained fairly constant for the last 100 years.

 

[Vinod2070]

You and the Vinod troll have your figures all wrong. East Pakistan contained the majority of Pakistan's Hindus.

West Pakistan's Hindu population has always remained fairly constant for the last 100 years.

Hisotory 101 anyone?

 

[roadrunner]

From 1951 till the present, West Pakistan's percentage Hindus have increased.

There was a slight dip in 1947 due to Partition exchanges but there's been about a percentage point increase in Hindus in West Pakistan since Partition.

 

[T-Faz]

@ T-Faz its in "Iqbal's letters to mr, Jinnah" you can consult it.

if you had said J was the man of principles and champion of minority rights, a opposition politician, I would have agreed, unlike a mindless debating about was Jinnah secular?

and lastly J led the movement for Pakistan, and Pakistan was created through the plateforum of AIML...

------------

I think this debate is off topic, so I stop here and wait for appropriate thread to discuss.

Lets carry on, its an interesting debate and it must be discussed.

What Jinnah wanted is still hotly debated in Pakistan because the proponents of an Islamic state have been able to propagate their theory to a lot of extent in this nation causing confusion.

But the world agrees that Pakistan was found as a secular state and its founder was a secular man.

Lets review come articles from reputable sources written in the wake of OBL's raid which mention this fact.

Pakistan is a republic of fables. Founded as a secular state but increasingly religious. Fiercely independent but reliant on aid. Nuclear armed but deeply insecure.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/osamas-death-and-the-pakistani-paradox/article2021925/

The [objectives] resolution was "a clear move away from the secular aspirations expressed by" Muslim League's president and Pakistan's founder, Mohammad Ali Jinnah

Islam and Politics in Pakistan - Council on Foreign Relations

The British thought that Pakistan under the leadership of the secular lawyer Muhammad Ali Jinnah would turn out to be an acceptable counterbalance to an India led by Jawaharlal Nehru's Congress party.

But Jinnah was suffering from cancer at the time and died in September 1948, 13 months after partition. And Pakistan ever since has been -- well, let's say it has been a problem.

Articles & Commentary

What happened? Why has radical Islam become so entrenched in this supposedly secular Muslim state?

Articles & Commentary

The vision for a united Pakistan espoused by the Western-educated, secular founder of the country, Muhammah Ali Jinnah, evaporated when he died on September 11, 1948.

Why is there no revolt in Pakistan? | The Great Debate

Pakistan was originally founded in 1947 by Muhammad Ali Jinnah as a secular country

The American Spectator : Pakistan: The People Have Their Chance

The intelligentsia of the world unanimously agrees that Pakistan was meant to be a secular state, its founder was secular and religion was not supposed to play such a major part in this country.

Then what is your argument against it, even Iqbals son said the same thing.

On the night of March 7, 2011, Justice (retd) Javid Iqbal was interviewed on a TV channel on the nature of the Pakistani state. He held that Pakistan, as envisaged by Jinnah, was to be a secular state. This is the package he has always accepted as the ‘modern Islamic state’ imagined by his father, Allama Iqbal, too.

Was Jinnah secular? – The Express Tribune

Its fair to say that you cannot counter my strong argument with references from reputable sources.