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Featured Army chief, Saudi envoy discuss regional security, bilateral ties

I fail to understand one thing. Once Saudia orders Pakistan not to attend Kuala Lampur summit, Everyone started taking a dig at Imran khan and His government. Pakistan toed the the line of Saudi Interests. But When Pakistan made a request to discuss issue of kashmir in OIC What Saudia Did? toeing the the line of Indian interests by deferring the matter of kashmir no ? Pakistan is again the villian here and SMQ calculated statements are being portrayed as his outbursts and Political ambitions?

Isnt it simply just that Pakistan wants Saudia scratching its back? but we are getting the blanket statements OIC is useless, Pakistan overstepped, hurt the sentiments of Saudis and what not. When Saudi ordered us not to attend the summit, Why didnt Pakistani sentiments got hurt then? But now when Pakistan wants the same thing, We are being reminded that we are dependent on Saudi, they helped us, we should be more tactic and docile. Werent we docile enough that we backed out of Kuala Lampur summit?

Doesn't Pakistan has the right to get offended just like Saudi got offended by Kuala lampur summit? Or is it Pakistan is dependent upon Saudia hence we should accept our fate and resign to the fact that we should be acting on the whims and wishes of Saudia and never offend them ?

Does it mean now we should regularly toe the saudi line and don't have an independent policy of our own?

India has been inducted in OIC. Saudia and UAE disregard Pakistan requests not to invite India in OIC right after 27 FEB. What did they do? Why is it Pakistan should always be on backfoot and docile and our calculated statements be regarded as emotional outbursts instead of seeing it as Pakistan getting back at Saudia and UAE for what they did with Post 27 FEB Clash. Should Pakistan remain silent and led it slide forever? Just because Saudia help us regularly on economic front? That's it ?


Need your and @Jungibaaz perspective w.r.t this angle and perspective

Thanks for the mention, I agree with a lot of points you made and accept them as fact. However, let me preface by saying that none of us know internally what is actually going on:

We don’t know the true state of Saudi Pakistan relations, our top civilian and army leadership are the only ones in the loop and aware of the facts. We don’t even know from where SMQ’s remarks came, are they a definite shift in policy? Or are they his own thoughts said in a less than careful manner at the inopportune moment? We don’t even know to what extent the the government and the army are behind SMQ’s remarks. If even they’re at all behind them or even one the same page as we hear so often. We also don’t know why the deposits were returned early and on who’s wishes, ours or theirs?

What I mean to say is that we are speculating. All of us are, including me.

It could well be that the government are behind SMQ, and the army supports their stance. But we can’t be certain at this stage, so we must operate on what we know.

So that is the preface over and done with.

On the KL conference, it’s not a case of whether it was morally right to go there, it plainly was, nobody denies that. Nor is the Kashmir cause the wrong cause to promote internationally, we should absolutely promote it. My gripe with our decisions around KL were that it was a political mis-step and we were made to look foolish.

We already knew how the Saudis viewed our relations with certain allies of ours. And we knew that they’d be displeased. If we were able to take the heat, or exercise our own independent (not cost free but independent) foreign policy initiatives without succumbing to Saudi pressure via their financial leverage on us, then we should have gone and not backed out. If we were not able to take the heat, we shouldn’t have gone.

Certainly we shouldn’t have committed to two other allies and thrown in our own political capital, only to be browbeaten to back out by another ally. This spoke of poor planning and assessment.

On the latest developments, it is unprecedented in the history of our relations with Saudi. If you look at one of the things that Pakistan historically done well in order to cast a larger shadow internationally than our size, or to survive/thrive in the face of adversity; it’s our alliances and finely balanced foreign relations. Whether it was alliance with the US in the decades gone by that allowed us to developed more quickly, to obtain hardware and diplomatic support above our stature. Or the same today with China. And we have enjoyed lots of Saudi and other support from brotherly relations. I may not be an expert on foreign relations, but it seems SMQ’s remarks were definitely unprecedented and perhaps lacking finesse. There’s an old adage somewhere that also applies to diplomats, to be like a swan, graceful and calm on the surface, yet hard at work and paddling manically below the surface. I don’t know what’s below the surface and neither do you, but here we saw the quiet part said loudly on national tv.

Now on the reality of our affairs with Saudi. Whether we like it or not, their support historically and as recently as last year has helped us get through tough times. In this relationship, I believe they have far more leverage on us than we do on them, but we have not looked at this in those terms, we view them as brotherly relations with some obvious red lines for self respect. For example, we all saw and I applauded our vocal refusal to be involved in the Yemen conflict. But on Kashmir, what really can we do to force Saudis? If we’re making another OIC, the question stands, is this in empty threat that we’ll have to grovel and apologise for at a later date and renege in as we did at the KL conference or will we carry it out? And if we carry it out what will it change anything materially for Kashmir. I’m sorry but if we can’t convince close allies in the GCC, Muslim countries to speak on behalf of Kashmiris, whatever that may say of their character, what hope do we have convincing the euros, Americans and others?

And on the moral argument, I’m afraid we cannot dictate such things on others. Saudis ideally would stand against oppression of fellow Muslims. I agree with this sentiment. But is this reasonable to expect? Take our relations with China for example. We are the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, our people pride themselves as keepers of the faith... do we dare speak up against China for treatment of Uyghurs? If we did, we’d stand to gain nothing and lose everything, and even for moral reasons, our noises wouldn’t cause any positive change there at all. If we can be allowed to overlook morals for national interests, I don’t think we can reasonably ask our close allies to do it for us. And other countries too operate on foreign policy on selfinterest and realpolitik, can we call out the Saudis? I’m torn on the subject. And even if we could call out the saudis as we did, do we have the required leverage to build support, and will this achieve anything real in the long run, and even if so, what is the cost?

The answer to the moral question may be nuanced and maybe to our liking. But the answer to the second and third questions definitely throws cold water on our aims. Simply put, not counting all the things we don’t know behind the scenes... SMQ’s remarks seemed rash, and even if they weren’t, we don’t have the capability to do what’s needed to achieve our objectives elsewhere, and the cost of doing so might massively outweigh some little and immaterial benefit to the Kashmir cause if we hurt relations with Saudi in an otherwise futile attempt to promote Kashmir cause.

Let me know if some of this didn’t make sense. I have a tendency to ramble and write too much without concision.

@Blacklight
 
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I'm not saying who called whom...
I see this as... a mess is created by SMQ... MBS unhappy... RSA informed the leadership... period...
messed up?
i dont know what makes you think SMQ would make such a press release without informing all stakeholders.
 
I fail to understand one thing. Once Saudia orders Pakistan not to attend Kuala Lampur summit, Everyone started taking a dig at Imran khan and His government. Pakistan toed the the line of Saudi Interests. But When Pakistan made a request to discuss issue of kashmir in OIC What Saudia Did? toeing the the line of Indian interests by deferring the matter of kashmir no ? Pakistan is again the villian here and SMQ calculated statements are being portrayed as his outbursts and Political ambitions?

Isnt it simply just that Pakistan wants Saudia scratching its back? but we are getting the blanket statements OIC is useless, Pakistan overstepped, hurt the sentiments of Saudis and what not. When Saudi ordered us not to attend the summit, Why didnt Pakistani sentiments got hurt then? But now when Pakistan wants the same thing, We are being reminded that we are dependent on Saudi, they helped us, we should be more tactic and docile. Werent we docile enough that we backed out of Kuala Lampur summit?

Doesn't Pakistan has the right to get offended just like Saudi got offended by Kuala lampur summit? Or is it Pakistan is dependent upon Saudia hence we should accept our fate and resign to the fact that we should be acting on the whims and wishes of Saudia and never offend them ?

Does it mean now we should regularly toe the saudi line and don't have an independent policy of our own?

India has been inducted in OIC. Saudia and UAE disregard Pakistan requests not to invite India in OIC right after 27 FEB. What did they do? Why is it Pakistan should always be on backfoot and docile and our calculated statements be regarded as emotional outbursts instead of seeing it as Pakistan getting back at Saudia and UAE for what they did with Post 27 FEB Clash. Should Pakistan remain silent and led it slide forever? Just because Saudia help us regularly on economic front? That's it ?


Need your and @Jungibaaz perspective w.r.t this angle and perspective

When we will get out of tht slavery mindset and show middle finger to those bunch of Arab gangsters thn they wld remain in their limits .
They need us more thn we need them ...
 
I lived in Pakistan for about 20 years so dont parrot this BS about you suffering more than others. Pakistan runs on billions that Pakistanis send back every year. If you want to talk about himat then it takes himat to leave your home and go live abroad to earn money for your country and family. If all the foreign Pakistani residents came back then our country would go bankrupt with few months. At end of the day mental slaves can come up with thousands of excuses to be tat poonjiyay of saudis.

Sitting your arse in Saudia and telling me to live in Pakistan seriously people like you are one heck of a bloody joke.
Lol your emotional outburst proves the point at one point you saying Pakistan running of expat remittance while majority of which comes from KsA? Thanks for proving my point .. Australia UK or other only fraction of what remittance from Ksa follows ..you are contradictory on your own ...
 
Thanks for the mention, I agree with a lot of points you made and accept them as fact. However, let me preface by saying that none of us know internally what is actually going on:

We don’t know the true state of Saudi Pakistan relations, our top civilian and army leadership are the only ones in the loop and aware of the facts. We don’t even know from where SMQ’s remarks came, are they a definite shift in policy? Or are they his own thoughts said in a less than careful manner at the inopportune moment? We don’t even know to what extent the the government and the army are behind SMQ’s remarks. If even they’re at all behind them or even one the same page as we hear so often. We also don’t know why the deposits were returned early and on who’s wishes, ours or theirs?

What I mean to say is that we are speculating. All of us are, including me.

It could well be that the government are behind SMQ, and the army supports their stance. But we can’t be certain at this stage, so we must operate on what we know.

So that is the preface over and done with.

On the KL conference, it’s not a case of whether it was morally right to go there, it plainly was, nobody denies that. Nor is the Kashmir cause the wrong cause to promote internationally, we should absolutely promote it. My gripe with our decisions around KL were that it was a political mis-step and we were made to look foolish.

We already knew how the Saudis viewed our relations with certain allies of ours. And we knew that they’d be displeased. If we were able to take the heat, or exercise our own independent (not cost free but independent) foreign policy initiatives without succumbing to Saudi pressure via their financial leverage on us, then we should have gone and not backed out. If we were not able to take the heat, we shouldn’t have gone.

Certainly we shouldn’t have committed to two other allies and thrown in our own political capital, only to be browbeaten to back out by another ally. This spoke of poor planning and assessment.

On the latest developments, it is unprecedented in the history of our relations with Saudi. If you look at one of the things that Pakistan historically done well in order to cast a larger shadow internationally than our size, or to survive/thrive in the face of adversity; it’s our alliances and finely balanced foreign relations. Whether it was alliance with the US in the decades gone by that allowed us to developed more quickly, to obtain hardware and diplomatic support above our stature. Or the same today with China. And we have enjoyed lots of Saudi and other support from brotherly relations. I may not be an expert on foreign relations, but it seems SMQ’s remarks were definitely unprecedented and perhaps lacking finesse. There’s an old adage somewhere that also applies to diplomats, to be like a swan, graceful and calm on the surface, yet hard at work and paddling manically below the surface. I don’t know what’s below the surface and neither do you, but here we saw the quiet part said loudly on national tv.

Now on the reality of our affairs with Saudi. Whether we like it or not, their support historically and as recently as last year has helped us get through tough times. In this relationship, I believe they have far more leverage on us than we do on them, but we have not looked at this in those terms, we view them as brotherly relations with some obvious red lines for self respect. For example, we all saw and I applauded our vocal refusal to be involved in the Yemen conflict. But on Kashmir, what really can we do to force Saudis? If we’re making another OIC, the question stands, is this in empty threat that we’ll have to grovel and apologise for at a later date and renege in as we did at the KL conference or will we carry it out? And if we carry it out what will it change anything materially for Kashmir. I’m sorry but if we can’t convince close allies in the GCC, Muslim countries to speak on behalf of Kashmiris, whatever that may say of their character, what hope do we have convincing the euros, Americans and others?

And on the moral argument, I’m afraid we cannot dictate such things on others. Saudis ideally would stand against oppression of fellow Muslims. I agree with this sentiment. But is this reasonable to expect? Take our relations with China for example. We are the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, our people pride themselves as keepers of the faith... do we dare speak up against China for treatment of Uyghurs? If we did, we’d stand to gain nothing and lose everything, and even for moral reasons, our noises wouldn’t cause any positive change there at all. If we can be allowed to overlook morals for national interests, I don’t think we can reasonably ask our close allies to do it for us. And other countries too operate on foreign policy on selfinterest and realpolitik, can we call out the Saudis? I’m torn on the subject. And even if we could call out the saudis as we did, do we have the required leverage to build support, and will this achieve anything real in the long run, and even if so, what is the cost?

The answer to the moral question may be nuanced and maybe to our liking. But the answer to the second and third questions definitely throws cold water on our aims. Simply put, not counting all the things we don’t know behind the scenes... SMQ’s remarks seemed rash, and even if they weren’t, we don’t have the capability to do what’s needed to achieve our objectives elsewhere, and the cost of doing so might massively outweigh some little and immaterial benefit to the Kashmir cause if we hurt relations with Saudi in an otherwise futile attempt to promote Kashmir cause.

Let me know if some of this didn’t make sense. I have a tendency to ramble and write too much without concision.

@Blacklight
Aren't many of the Uyghurs getting succor from the CIA like ISIS was? If East Turkistan became independent would it not be a Bosnia in Central Asia? Basically a NATO military post?
 
Lol your emotional outburst proves the point at one point you saying Pakistan running of expat remittance while majority of which comes from KsA? Thanks for proving my point .. Australia UK or other only fraction of what remittance from Ksa follows ..you are contradictory on your own ...

Yeah but it beats being treated like $hit by bunch of Arabs. If today someone had offered you residency of Australia or UK then you would have dumped your job and passport without a second thought. Fraction or not billions of dollars sent from here and we are treated like human beings but you keep on polishing them until they shine.
 
Yes, but that leaves them very very vulnerable. Moment Trump has a mood swing.....
why would he do that when KSA is buying billions of dollars of arms?
We always replied Iranian politely even after they threatened us, though Iran has always been an irritating factor after Khumeni revolution. on the other hand, Gulf countries always helped us, even if they are not voicing in fovor of kashmir they were providing us oil and foreign deposits, we should have handled the situation carefully. We are not super power, we cannot antagonize our friendly countries and gift them to India.
 
Yeah but it beats being treated like $hit by bunch of Arabs. If today someone had offered you residency of Australia or UK then you would have dumped your job and passport without a second thought. Fraction or not billions of dollars sent from here and we are treated like human beings but you keep on polishing them until they shine.
No, residency of Australia or Uk is nothing a dream type of thing for me ..in fact quite easy as easy to go after 1 month but I choose not to ....nobody is treated like an animal in GCC also .. would have been much better if you could have spent time there ..
You are quite clear an economic migrating yourself in Australia and wish that thousands of poor labors loose there jobs in GCC just to satisfy false ego..
Also don’t want to indulge in personal mudslide ..so sorry as Government itself has corrected its position and now visit is there next week of power in charge in Pakistan to kSA..
 
Ur slavery mindset or a deliberate


Mr No No guy . Get out of ur slavery mindset .
Answer to ur first piss .... they are already pissed off because of Gawadar port which will be death to dubai port .they already pissed off because u showed middle finger on yemen . They are already in indian laps coz india is second biggest importer of oil from SA . India wld be lifeline of dubai after hit start of Gawadar . They are already pissed off coz iran is practically in CEPEC which means iran pakistan ties wld strengthen and hopefully we wld get rid of iranian hypocrisy on our borders and it wld end to indian raw snake holes in Iran .so answer is Yes pakistan can do and already done . :)
2: They can kick out our workers all at once , there already crippling economy wld be more screwed , tht was just a political pressure tactic.
3 : you should say Can Saudis afford losing pak forces , absolutely not . There royal family is protected by our special forces , we train them , our amred forces present at every level in Saudi .
4 : you are so naive to say tht pakistan wont be able to survive without defered payment oil supply . Absoulte non sense .
5 : Pakistan is always on the top in number of hajis so wld they risk to loose money . NO .
6 : LAST BUT NOT THE LEAST , can Saudis afford to loose Nuclear umbrella / deterrence provided by pakistan . Who else cld provide this to them ..


Bajwa to Saudi be like " Bol wo raha tha per shabd humaray thay ...... "

There are two types of people, one who live and accept reality based on accepted international status. The other type is idiots like you who have no clue of reality and yet proceed to comment like they know all. It is practically because of fantasizing fairytale promoting idiots like you in foreign countries and some in institutions here is why Pakistan today is where its at, nowhere. Wake up and smell the crap that you dole out!
 
There are two types of people, one who live and accept reality based on accepted international status. The other type is idiots like you who have no clue of reality and yet proceed to comment like they know all. It is practically because of fantasizing fairytale promoting idiots like you in foreign countries and some in institutions here is why Pakistan today is where its at, nowhere. Wake up and smell the crap that you dole out!
Calm down angry young man :)
Yes the poeple like us who have served their country and now residing abroad can judge and compare situation from birds eye view and also at micro level . I dont blame you for your approach coz i used to see things like you do .To be futuristic and for multi dimensional approch we as a nation need more time to get mature in guarding national interests .
 

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