Army chief holds off generals seeking Pakistan PM's ouster

[Capt.Popeye]

It is not populism at work here. It is the creation and manipulation of a certain "ideology".

That may be so. But the ideology has to be then given a veneer. That is where the populism has to be 'constructed'. It (the ideology) begins to work then with the "required veneer" of legitimacy. That is how it was done earlier, and will be re-used if felt expedient.

 

[VCheng]

Pyaray bhai. I think I can imagine your responses by now. May I ask for us to please move beyond the obvious?

The order was there for a reason. Flipping would not work. It already failed. It requires extraordinary patience to work with PA. If our PM shows the same patience that he showed today, for the next four years, we may have something to cheer about.

The issue between the PM and the Army is not one of patience or impatience. It is about constitutionally granted authority and the exercise thereof, in short, a power struggle.

The economy may be #1, but it can flourish only where there is rule of law as the foundation.

That may be so. But the ideology has to be then given a veneer. That is where the populism has to be 'constructed'. It (the ideology) begins to work then with the "required veneer" of legitimacy. That is how it was done earlier, and will be re-used if felt expedient.

Lipstick on a pig? Still a pig.

 

[Areesh]

Yup.. Part of Pakistani version of the history. starting from Islam being the 1st religion (prophet Adam being a Muslim ) and Pakistan being founded in 700 AD

Your post is totally off topic and looks to be written in frustration.

 

[Green Arrow]

Time for martial law is over in Pakistan. Mid term election might be coming soon though.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Lipstick on a pig? Still a pig.

That certainly,.
However that veneer is necessary to keep the 'hoi polloi' within the flock. And maybe to attempt to carry a reasonable image in the outside world. But the former is more important. Even the Biggest "Danda-Shah" in the world has to fear the 'hoi polloi beyond a certain point.

Then there is the other apprehension voiced here about a "coup within a coup" or a "coup within the coup-makers". That is not a possibility here. The collective instinct of self-preservation of the Institution over-rides every thing else. But that is clearly in the highest echelons.
What about the Foot-Soldiers/Pawns/Pyaadas within the Institution?
The veneer is necessary for that constituency as well so that it does not stray away from the flock!
If that happens; there will be a monumental implosion.

 

[VCheng]

That certainly,.
However that veneer is necessary to keep the 'hoi polloi' within the flock. And maybe to attempt to carry a reasonable image in the outside world. But the former is more important. Even the Biggest "Danda-Shah" in the world has to fear the 'hoi polloi beyond a certain point.

Then there is the other apprehension voiced here about a "coup within a coup" or a "coup within the coup-makers". That is not a possibility here. The collective instinct of self-preservation of the Institution over-rides every thing else. But that is clearly in the highest echelons.
What about the Foot-Soldiers/Pawns/Pyaadas within the Institution?
The veneer is necessary for that constituency as well so that it does not stray away from the flock!
If that happens; there will be a monumental implosion.

For now, the Army remains unified, of that I have no doubt or concern.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

For now, the Army remains unified, of that I have no doubt or concern.

Of course it will be....... and for the foreseeable future as well. As I explained in the earlier post; that remains the primary priority of that Institution, much above anything else in the world.

If that 'domino falls'..............
That (btw) is also the basic issue that appears (again and again) in Owen Bennett-Jones' book.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Yup.. Part of Pakistani version of the history. starting from Islam being the 1st religion (prophet Adam being a Muslim ) and Pakistan being founded in 700 AD

Since twice I asked politely to refrain from trolling, and you did not listen, you are hereby thread banned. If you persist like this eslewhere, sadly I will have to ban you for a while.

 

[Chak Bamu]

The issue between the PM and the Army is not one of patience or impatience. It is about constitutionally granted authority and the exercise thereof, in short, a power struggle.

The economy may be #1, but it can flourish only where there is rule of law as the foundation.

About economy - I disagree.

No matter how you look at it, its a game with very real stakes. He can do it if he really wanted to. He already made a lucky mistake.

 

[Chak Bamu]

That certainly,.
However that veneer is necessary to keep the 'hoi polloi' within the flock. And maybe to attempt to carry a reasonable image in the outside world. But the former is more important. Even the Biggest "Danda-Shah" in the world has to fear the 'hoi polloi beyond a certain point.

Then there is the other apprehension voiced here about a "coup within a coup" or a "coup within the coup-makers". That is not a possibility here. The collective instinct of self-preservation of the Institution over-rides every thing else. But that is clearly in the highest echelons.
What about the Foot-Soldiers/Pawns/Pyaadas within the Institution?
The veneer is necessary for that constituency as well so that it does not stray away from the flock!
If that happens; there will be a monumental implosion.

Speculations on top of speculations. If you really understood the situation as I understand it, OP article gives you incomplete information. There are a few pieces missing. And at least one piece of the puzzle needs to be rotated 180 degrees before fitting it.

The unnamed minister is Ch. Nisar, and before one takes his word, one needs to put his views in perspective.

General Raheel Sharif is not in this or any coup business. He is the odd one. The lucky mistake that has worked in favor of NS so far. If you look at everything, a coup was a foregone conclusion. It has not happened. I went out on a limb (just one piece of information), to declare that there would be no coup. So far so good.

This time it was not about making PM NS to agree to this or that. It was about getting rid of him. He is lucky and he shall stay lucky in my opinion. But he has no margin of error now. He either must control his ministers, or reshuffle the cabinet and side-line Kh. Asif and Kh. Saad Rafique.

 

[VCheng]

About economy - I disagree.

No matter how you look at it, its a game with very real stakes. He can do it if he really wanted to. He already made a lucky mistake.

The economy is important, but it is a consequence and not a cause of rule of law. The whole present exercise was planned to result in a weakened but more pliable civilian government by using the appropriate pawns. That is it in a nutshell.

 

[OrionHunter]

Pakistan Army is a very disciplined institution. No coups on the inside. Period.

Please do not speculate. It's awfully like trolling - and that too in sensitive times.

Not speculating, nor trolling, but it's pretty clear when the Chief himself isn't confident of the backing of his corps commanders. What does that mean? Probably dissension within the ranks? According to the Reuters article in the OP.........

The minister, who declined to be named due to the sensitivity of discussing the inner workings of the military, said "at least five generals had been pushing for weeks for the army to take a more "active role" in defusing the crisis."

So what about the rest of the generals and the chief? Why were they all not on the same page where this serious situation was concerned? They are supposed to follow the orders of the chief come what may, not pull in different directions.

Of course that article may be outright exaggeration by some journalists and politicians bent upon sensationalism and scoring brownie points. I just commented on what was written as I don't have first hand knowledge myself.

 

[Viper0011.]

Pakistani democracy will emerge stronger from this crisis. In any case if Nawaz Sharif survives this storm, and everything indicates that he will, Pakistan's democracy will be much stronger than before.
General do NOT have the power they used to have and NS has a big role in it.

I've been saying it even before the long march got to Islamabad. The time for the military to take over ....is actually over. This situation was another test and the Parliament and the Supreme court (later backed by IK's party President) made it impossible for the military to come.

I don't see any coupe in Pakistan's future. If there ever is one and some genius general tries it, after a few years, they'll be dealing with a treason case. I think the generals have started to realize that and they are not willing to bet their lifetime achievements ending in a "treason" case as a retirement gift. However, the retired generals are now a bigger issue than the active duty ones IMO as they have all the time in the world to come up with schemes like these.

 

[asad71]

1. This Reuters report is making a clever guess. The five Corpse Commanders retiring would clamor for a take over. Reality in PA High Command is different. It is the Chief. He talks, others listen. Most often opinions would converge. Info,assessments, reports and per-briefings given to them would rarely leave room for divergence. Musharraf had sacked Tariq Pervez (TP) over Kargil affair.

2. We must not forget PA is fighting a major war. Casualties pile up everyday. The politicians - notably IK, have failed to bring peace. The mily is fighting a war that it is not designed to do. It is a war that politicos should fight. However, mily now finds itself alone.

3. Here the Interior Minister has goofed up. He should have imposed Sec 144 in Islamabad. People approaching the Constitution Av' should have been intercepted at various points at the outskirts. Targeted arrests and raids in houses would have disrupted any effort at gathering.The containers should have been confiscated for traffic violation, motor vehicle act contravention, etc. That is, if the Govt had guts.

4. Now the Umpire is waiting for Red and Green to knock themselves out leaving him the winner.If Sharif is not leader enough he will have to go back to Jeddah. But TUQ and IK -who already differ on basic issues,will not get any piece of the cake. Their stance, if not role, in sabotaging Pak-China relations will eventually come out.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Speculations on top of speculations. If you really understood the situation as I understand it, OP article gives you incomplete information. There are a few pieces missing. And at least one piece of the puzzle needs to be rotated 180 degrees before fitting it.

The unnamed minister is Ch. Nisar, and before one takes his word, one needs to put his views in perspective.

General Raheel Sharif is not in this or any coup business. He is the odd one. The lucky mistake that has worked in favor of NS so far. If you look at everything, a coup was a foregone conclusion. It has not happened. I went out on a limb (just one piece of information), to declare that there would be no coup. So far so good.

This time it was not about making PM NS to agree to this or that. It was about getting rid of him. He is lucky and he shall stay lucky in my opinion. But he has no margin of error now. He either must control his ministers, or reshuffle the cabinet and side-line Kh. Asif and Kh. Saad Rafique.

No my friend: no speculations are there at all. It is on the basis of quite some study and "neighbor watching" over some decades.
You have thrown in some names etc. But they are all irrelevant. Irrelevant since there is a "systemic juggernaut" at work. As it has been for so long.
Gen.Shareef may not be in the 'coup business'. But that does not mean that every (present) General is not, just as every General in the past was not in the 'coup business'. That 'Institution' run on the basis of "consensus". Ironically; it has close to Democratic norms of functioning when it comes to political stances. Save in the instances where an overarching and overbearing Gernail was at the helm. There is a reason for that adherence to (a seemingly) Democratic norm. The basic reason is : the primary instinct of the "survival of the Institution". That over-rides every other consideration on earth. Which is what I've said before.

Now going back to the "script": it required that NS must be defanged or emasculated. Rather than eliminated. Elimination was not an option. The 'Institution' is not as strong as it was in the past; either within the Estt or in the public eye. Even international (mainly Amreekan) opinion is not favorable. What has been achieved instead is a far "smarter" achievement!

Mind you; I am no admirer of NS, he is simply a perfect idiot. Just as PTI and TUQ are perfect pawns.
Then; what are the Awaam?