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Funny that India needs a "third party" to evaluate its own tank. If aj is such a wonderful tank and the Indian army is simply too corrupt, then why doesn't India just export it other countries?
 
We rejected it because Turkey is a Nato member and we are stranger to russian based systems.
We intented to upgrade our m60 serie old tanks with GDLS but they refused the job. so our tanks are upgraded by IMI. why IMI? it was the only company at that date who could do this. it was a very difficult phase for us. it was so difficult that we decided to build our own tank...
so here we work on Altay. Thanks to Germans. they didnt give us their leopards. they made us build our own tank :lol: it is too late for me. i need to sleep so i cant type more=) may be i go on when i wake up. sun is rising here and i need to go to bed.
take care mate.
Kansu

What is the status of Altay? Feel free to PM me what you know, I believe it is off topic here anyways.

Regards.
 
You have seen none of the tanks in India, Pakistan or China in real battle nor you are qualified to understand technical details. Whatever you read about Arjun is story of denial by Indian Army and gossips in different forums. Let us know if you had any other sources. Please read about recent opinion of Army about Arjun MBT.


yes i m not qualified to understand technical details... i guess you are more qualified than me so you can understand the things i cant understand...:rofl:

Gossips or rumours, whatever... Arjun's delay is a fact. and honestly it is not a delay. Admit it that its a failure. I can write you a big list and pages of explanations about the problems of Arjun but i really dont have desire to do this. Because everybody in the entire world who is interested in Land systems and tanks know the problem(s) of Arjun. if you wish lets keep discussing via pm. And honestly if you can fix my wrong(?) ideas about Arjun, i would be very pleased. nevertheless i would get rid of my prejudgements(?) about your tank.

To be honest i support your Arjun project. it will be very costly for you and so much money spent on such a constantly disabled tank would help my Pak. brothers very much. And in this time period Al Khalid 2 would be developed, may be we can give some of our Altays after 2015 to Pakistan.

You can praise your junkie as much as you want Dear Brother. But i wont change my opinion untill that tank proves itself... no i dont expect itself to prove in a total war. if it can make 2000+ kms with regular maintenances in desert without any failures near pakistan border i will admit it as a successful tank :lol:
And what about AT weapons? will it be able to stand against HJ-8?


ps: you say none of the tanks are not tested which are still in service in Chinese and pakistan armies. but let me ask you: Did German Leopard see any action? And i think it is the best... Any objections about this?
 
Haha couldn't have said it better.

yes i m not qualified to understand technical details... i guess you are more qualified than me so you can understand the things i cant understand...:rofl:

Gossips or rumours, whatever... Arjun's delay is a fact. and honestly it is not a delay. Admit it that its a failure. I can write you a big list and pages of explanations about the problems of Arjun but i really dont have desire to do this. Because everybody in the entire world who is interested in Land systems and tanks know the problem(s) of Arjun. if you wish lets keep discussing via pm. And honestly if you can fix my wrong(?) ideas about Arjun, i would be very pleased. nevertheless i would get rid of my prejudgements(?) about your tank.

To be honest i support your Arjun project. it will be very costly for you and so much money spent on such a constantly disabled tank would help my Pak. brothers very much. And in this time period Al Khalid 2 would be developed, may be we can give some of our Altays after 2015 to Pakistan.

You can praise your junkie as much as you want Dear Brother. But i wont change my opinion untill that tank proves itself... no i dont expect itself to prove in a total war. if it can make 2000+ kms with regular maintenances in desert without any failures near pakistan border i will admit it as a successful tank :lol:
And what about AT weapons? will it be able to stand against HJ-8?


ps: you say none of the tanks are not tested which are still in service in Chinese and pakistan armies. but let me ask you: Did German Leopard see any action? And i think it is the best... Any objections about this?
 
Piercing the army's armour of deception


Piercing the army's armour of deception

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi February 04, 2010, 0:31 IST



Vital facts on the Russian T-90 tank deal were suppressed and its performance on the field has been a disaster.



On August 24 last year, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) dressed up failure as achievement when — almost nine years after India bought the T-90 tank from Russia — the first 10 built-in-India T-90s were ceremonially rolled out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai.

No reasons were given for that delay. Nor did the Ministry of Defence (MoD) reveal the T-90’s ballooning cost, now a whopping Rs 17.5 crore. On November 30, 2006, the MoD told the Lok Sabha that the T-90 tank cost Rs 12 crore apiece. Parliament does not yet know about the 50 per cent rise in cost.

The story of the T-90 has been coloured by deception and obfuscation from even before the tank was procured. Business Standard has pieced together, from internal documents and multiple interviews with MoD sources, an account of how the Indian Army has saddled itself with an underperforming, yet overpriced, version of the Russian T-90.

The deception stemmed from the army’s determination to push through the T-90 contract despite vocal opposition from sections of Parliament. Former Prime Minister H D Deve Gowda argued — allegedly because a close associate had a commercial interest in continuing with T-72 production — that fitting the T-72 with modern fire control systems and night vision devices would be cheaper than buying the T-90. Deve Gowda correctly pointed out that even Russia’s army had spurned the T-90.

To bypass his opposition, the MoD and the army reached an understanding with Rosvoorouzhenie, Russia’s arms export agency. The T-90 would be priced only marginally higher than the T-72 by removing key T-90 systems; India would procure those through supplementary contracts after the T-90 entered service. Excluded from India’s T-90s was the Shtora active protection system, which protects the T-90 from incoming enemy missiles. This was done knowing well that Pakistan’s anti-tank defences are based heavily on missiles.

Other important systems were also pared. The MoD opted to buy reduced numbers of the INVAR missile, which the T-90 fires. Maintenance vehicles, which are vital to keep the T-90s running, were not included in the contract. All this allowed the government to declare before Parliament that the Russian T-90s cost just Rs 11 crore, while the assembled-in-India T-90s were Rs 12 crore apiece.

The MoD did not mention that these prices would rise when the supplementary contracts were negotiated. Nor did it reveal that India’s pared-down T-90s barely matched the performance of the Pakistan Army’s recently acquired T-80 UD tank, which India had cited as the threat that demanded the T-90.

Worse was to follow when the initial batch of 310 T-90s entered service (124 bought off-the-shelf and 186 as knocked-down kits). It quickly became evident — and that too during Operation Parakram, with India poised for battle against Pakistan — that the T-90s were not battleworthy. The T-90’s thermal imaging (TI) sights, through which the tank aims its 125mm gun, proved unable to function in Indian summer temperatures. And, the INVAR missiles assembled in India simply didn’t work. Since nobody knew why, they were sent back to Russia.

Even more alarmingly, the army discovered that the T-90 sighting systems could not fire Indian tank ammunition, which was falling short of the targets. So, even as a panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90’s fire control computer for firing Indian ammunition, Russian ammunition was bought.

With Russia playing hardball, none of the supplementary contracts have yet gone through. The TI sights remain a problem. The army has decided to fit each T-90 with an Environment Control System, to cool the delicate electronics with a stream of chilled air. None of the world’s current tanks, other than France’s LeClerc, has such a system. The American Abrams and the British Challenger tanks fought in the Iraq desert without air-conditioning. India’s Arjun tank, too, has “hardened” electronics that function perfectly even in the Rajasthan summer.

Nor has the MoD managed to procure the Shtora anti-missile system. The Directorate General of Mechanised Forces now plans to equip India’s eventual 1,657-tank T-90 fleet with the advanced ARENA active protection system, for which it has budgeted Rs 2,500 crore in the Army Acquisition Plan for 2009-11.

The greatest concern arose when Russia held back on its contractual obligation to transfer the technology needed to build 1,000 T-90s in India. But, instead of pressuring Russia, the MoD rewarded it in 2007 with a contract for 347 more T-90s. In an astonishing Catch-22, the MoD argued that the new purchase was needed because indigenous production had not begun.

Next month, when the T-90 is measured against the Arjun in comparative trials, the T-90s’ drawbacks will not be evident. But, as officers who have operated the T-90 admit, these could be crucial handicaps in battle.

“It is for these reasons that I have consistently argued for supporting the Indian Arjun tank,” says General Shankar Roy Chowdhury, former army chief and himself a tankman. “Another country can hold India hostage in many ways. We need to place an order for several hundred Arjun tanks so that economies of scale can kick in and we can bring down the price even further.”

If the Arjun performs strongly in next month’s comparative trials around Suratgarh and Pokhran, that order could be in the offing.

Indian Army High command :hang2::hang2::hang2::hang2::hang2:
 
:woot: has it been pre ordaned

:lol::lol::lol:

I'm not sure but I think DRDO forced MoD to put their tank 'Arjun' headon with Indian Army/Babu's 'Bhishma'. and Army was avoiding trials. DRDO looks confudance here but the ARMY.

So, my gut feeling says that we should be ready about 'upset' in the match. and that is the reason I'm saying that
'History can repeat itself'.
 
i dont understand one thing...if army is not interested in arjun and wants to import ..then why not import from germany or america...they have the best ones...
 
i dont understand one thing...if army is not interested in arjun and wants to import ..then why not import from germany or america...they have the best ones...

Its better for their topographic conditions buddy, and We cannot modify that with accordance to our needs Like we do to T-90 Bhishma..... Russia has Given us full liberty to do that...... And Moreover India dosent need any other foreign MBT other than T-90's....
 
i dont understand one thing...if army is not interested in arjun and wants to import ..then why not import from germany or america...they have the best ones...

with out our indigenous defense production India never become a developed nation... I say it also for all Civil sectors!!!:victory:
 
I think Arjun is way batter then T 90 in Fire power, mobility as well as Protection then why this *** H@le don't purchase 2000 of them and give some work , expertise & money to our people !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I think Arjun is way batter then T 90 in Fire power, mobility as well as Protection then why this *** H@les don't purchase 2000 of them and give some work , expertise & money to our people !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
may be its time for 'Arjun' to outperform 'Bhishma'. Again....;)

I seriously doubt it. If army is not keen on the tank they will find 100 different ways to dsicredit it.

Ever tried getting a user to accept a software he doesnt want..??
 

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