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We have to get new tanks at one point or the other.
Arjun is much better than a T-72, you have to agree on that

Yes I agree we have to get new tanks. But that shall be a generation beyond what is existing today, and Arjun in its present form is a tank that should have begun induction a decade back and been in adequate numbers today, not 7 years hence.

I return to my oft mentioned point that the tank became a viable and good piece only in 2006, 6 years too late.

There is no comparision between the T-72 and Arjun, however the upgradation is necessary as you can not simply wipe out the entire war stocks. And its not easy to introduce a weapons platform within a few months. You need to do so over a few years. Unlike what a fellow poster from our neighbouring country has suggested his country can do (produce adequate numbers overnight)!!!!

The best way to induct it is by compromise really,
The Army upgrades a specific number of T-72. while concurrently Arjuns are being procured and inducted, replacing un-upgraded T-72's.

This goes on till they can meet at a middle ground when there are enough Arjuns with Logistics in place, to stop upgrading T-72's

And then Just Induct more Arjuns.

How do you solve the issue of ensuring adequate war stocks being buffered and kept ready even in compromise formula that you are proposing? How do you delegate resources for production of tanks (Arjun) and ancillaries, while at the same time maintain adequate lines for the other weapons platforms? How do you solve the problem of inadequate transportation, service areas, setting up of base repairs for a new system while trying to maintain an adequate platform stock in service to maintain war preparedness in an increasingly fluid situation in a neighbouring country?

How do you solve the problem of having mechanised elements with tank squadron ready for deployment in high altitude with an increasingly hostile situation develping in the north?

whats wrong with that, You made it sound in practical or impossible

I reall didnt make it sound as such ..... I only asked for solutions that probably the best of policy makers today can not find a solution to.

Its one thing to promote indigenous production but totally another issue to do so retrospectively and too late in the day which may seriously lead to compromise in Army war preparedness.
 
Now that's just you being an idiot :hitwall:

Of course the Bloody logistics chain is built around Tanks they already have. They wont have logistics Chains for thanks they might get :argh:

And one point or the other you have to get new equipment and adapt, you cant just keep using the same tanks and then say its because we built our logistics around them, you induct new tanks and build around them as well. :argh:

What would rather have a bunch of old upgraded T-72's or Bunch of Brand new Arjun Heavy tanks.
You going to have to get new tanks eventualy and upgrade logistics.

Don't make excuses for an army which is making another one of its great idiotic moves since the Bofors deal went sour 20 years ago.
:hitwall:

Why am I an Idiot? Did you read my post correctly?

There is no doubt we need new tanks, reading about the T-90s the situation is even worse!! so is Arjun the answer then? debatable

think logically, IA will not throw away the T-90s, so are you suggesting we have two different logistics? since we will have T90s and Arjun in good numbers?

I was merely suggesting that Arjun is not solving problems, not because its not a good product, because its coming a decade too late...

I do agree with you on one point, we do need new tanks, but IMO it should neither be the T90 nor the Arjun...Feel free to disagree..
 
Why am I an Idiot? Did you read my post correctly?

You said the Arjun is going to cause more problems then it can fix.
The tank that was custom tailored to the Indian Army has more problems then a T-72:what:

army Rubbish, Everything on that tank is as they requested.
Don't you find it even bit odd, given the tanks development time frame no one raised any of these issues when it was being made.

But suddenly now, There are all these logistics problems. The army has operated a heavy tank before, Centurion. The army even has special rail carriages for Arjun. They have a solution to all its so called logistical problems.


There is no doubt we need new tanks, reading about the T-90s the situation is even worse!! so is Arjun the answer then? debatable

think logically, IA will not throw away the T-90s, so are you suggesting we have two different logistics? since we will have T90s and Arjun in good numbers?

I was merely suggesting that Arjun is not solving problems, not because its not a good product, because its coming a decade too late...

I do agree with you on one point, we do need new tanks, but IMO it should neither be the T90 nor the Arjun...Feel free to disagree..

Rubbish, You know well enough how the army procures its equipment.
In fact when was the last time they even got artillery.

Tanks and Artillery the hallmarks of the modern army, Now look at the state of our tanks and artillery. Its a bloody disgrace.

I think we need the the Arjun, at the very least it can replace a whole list of outdated stuff.

get a new tank well lets build one with the Russians, But that tank wont be ready till 2020.

Arjun provides an easy way to modernize our forces
 
Yes I agree we have to get new tanks. But that shall be a generation beyond what is existing today, and Arjun in its present form is a tank that should have begun induction a decade back and been in adequate numbers today, not 7 years hence.

I return to my oft mentioned point that the tank became a viable and good piece only in 2006, 6 years too late.

There is no comparision between the T-72 and Arjun, however the upgradation is necessary as you can not simply wipe out the entire war stocks. And its not easy to introduce a weapons platform within a few months. You need to do so over a few years. Unlike what a fellow poster from our neighbouring country has suggested his country can do (produce adequate numbers overnight)!!!!



How do you solve the issue of ensuring adequate war stocks being buffered and kept ready even in compromise formula that you are proposing? How do you delegate resources for production of tanks (Arjun) and ancillaries, while at the same time maintain adequate lines for the other weapons platforms? How do you solve the problem of inadequate transportation, service areas, setting up of base repairs for a new system while trying to maintain an adequate platform stock in service to maintain war preparedness in an increasingly fluid situation in a neighbouring country?

How do you solve the problem of having mechanised elements with tank squadron ready for deployment in high altitude with an increasingly hostile situation develping in the north?



I reall didnt make it sound as such ..... I only asked for solutions that probably the best of policy makers today can not find a solution to.

Its one thing to promote indigenous production but totally another issue to do so retrospectively and too late in the day which may seriously lead to compromise in Army war preparedness.

There you go again.

You You make it seem as if its some kind of issue.

Lets get something right, the current state of our army is deplorable.

No artillery, no tank, slow pace of modernization.

The other two branches are establishing themselves as a force to be reckoned with. 5th gen fighter, Aircraft carriers, Nuclear submarines , Indigenous fighters . etc

What has the army done, Its has plans for a 1500 T-90's and that's it.
And when question why The army chooses to spend Millions on T-72's , while a far superiors Arjun is available.

They say essentially.

Logictical issues, we simply cannot adapt, or change.
 
We have to get new tanks at one point or the other.
Arjun is much better than a T-72, you have to agree on that

The best way to induct it is by compromise really,
The Army upgrades a specific number of T-72. while concurrently Arjuns are being procured and inducted, replacing un-upgraded T-72's.

This goes on till they can meet at a middle ground when there are enough Arjuns with Logistics in place, to stop upgrading T-72's

And then Just Induct more Arjuns.

whats wrong with that, You made it sound in practical or impossible

Completely agree with the bold statement, it seems very practical and gettable but this simple things is not getting inside of the thick head IA walla..:hitwall:
 
Ok for our amusement we stop upgradation of T-72s. Fair. Now will you compute and tell me how much time you shall take to get the Arjuns in place with adequate logistical and ordnance stocks so as to maintain adequate war preparedness?

Suggest how do we transport tanks to North Sikkim and Ladakh regions where the Tibetian Plateau provides an adequate tankable country? And how do we, in theory, put in adequate numbers quickly (comparatively) in case of a future armed conflict (totally theoretically) and in case of a breakthrough obtained to exploit the situation?

i think you miss some points, Arjun is a 54 Ton tank & will be placed on the borders of Pakistan where the train is either Deserts of Gujrat & Rajasthan or planes of punjab. but the borders along China are mountanes & on tahnk let it be Arjun, T 90 or T 72 is suitable there. so IA has sent RFI for the light tanks.

as far as lt issues of logistics & maintenance are concerns with the evolution of new systems you need to invest for these in all the cases, let it be IA, IN or IAF.

but upgarding all the T72 is a shear loss of money.
 
You said the Arjun is going to cause more problems then it can fix.
The tank that was custom tailored to the Indian Army has more problems then a T-72:what:

No. There is no such claim of Arjun causing more problems than it can fix. Its the problem of introducing it, which shall be problematic in terms of ground realities associated with introduction of any new weapons platform.
T-72s were inducted in 1980s. So am unsure why are you comparing the two apart from the fact you find upgrade to Ajeya standards as waste.

army Rubbish, Everything on that tank is as they requested.
Don't you find it even bit odd, given the tanks development time frame no one raised any of these issues when it was being made.

Yes the tank is as it was requested, 6 years after Army dumped it (after Year 2000 trials). By that time T-90s were coming in in sufficient numbers. Strange isn't it? That inspite of Army dumping it permanently in 2000, no one in DRDO or MoD was listening and funds were being pumped in nevertheless?

But suddenly now, There are all these logistics problems. The army has operated a heavy tank before, Centurion. The army even has special rail carriages for Arjun. They have a solution to all its so called logistical problems.

BFAT carriages. They are hardly in a couple of scores. You needs hundreds.Issue is not of ability, but in terms of cost in monetary and time.


Rubbish, You know well enough how the army procures its equipment.
In fact when was the last time they even got artillery.

Tanks and Artillery the hallmarks of the modern army, Now look at the state of our tanks and artillery. Its a bloody disgrace.

Army submitted its listing. The fault is with MoD and GoI. They develp cold feet everytime anyone shouts "kickbacks". Barack missile deal is a great example and the blacklisting of SA Denel (which was involved with co-development of Indian SPG Project Bhim) Now dont even get into area of this mess, result of political nonsense and lack of appropriate will power, who the bloody hell elects them -? Guess? The citizens of India! Election commission never even sends the ballot paper to Armed Forces personnel. Soldiers have not voted in past 14-15 years on an average save for one odd occassion, that too when they happened to be on leave!!!!!!

I think we need the the Arjun, at the very least it can replace a whole list of outdated stuff.

get a new tank well lets build one with the Russians, But that tank wont be ready till 2020.

Arjun provides an easy way to modernize our forces

Some small math for you :

The equipment ratio for every Tank regiment is 45 tanks authorised with equal number in reserve. That means each tank regiment is 90 tanks.
Arjun was ready in desired form only in 2006. This army does not deny. Now start that count with the number of Tank regiments in Indian Army (not less than 150) and multiply the requirement of tanks and divide it by the building capacity (at present not more than 50/year: with dedicated lines and three shifts on, only maximum 150-200 you achieve on the optimistic side)

Now get into the logistical set up. You have three lines of ammunition. You need time to convert the assembly lines of your ammunition factory which will take minimum a year to do so and achieve optimal production level. Now build the stocks for all the levels .... it will take minimum 5 years to have adequate stocks (including reserves to wage war for over 60 days)

and all this while you have not paid any attention to your existing stock of T-55s, Vijayants, PT-76s, T-72s and T-90s. No spares etc to be made for these to have the above for Arjun ready.

You are looking at a time frame of minimum 10-14 years for optimal levels to be achieved keeping in view the threat perception.

Now include the time to create ARVs, Sarvatra Class Bridging equipment, reinforce your primary bridges across DCB to launch an offensive, BFATs and establishing of support areas and Base repair Depots.

The costs in terms of refit is tremendous. And by the time an optimal level is achieved a new generation of tank is needed (IA is going for same in 2015-2020 under Army Vision 2020). Then you will infact spend crores more to upgrade your Arjun ..... to mkII standards and reinduct all over
 
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There you go again.

You You make it seem as if its some kind of issue.

Lets get something right, the current state of our army is deplorable.

No artillery, no tank, slow pace of modernization..

I agree that the condition is bad, but not as bad as could have been. Maybe we can discuss this off thread.


The other two branches are establishing themselves as a force to be reckoned with. 5th gen fighter, Aircraft carriers, Nuclear submarines , Indigenous fighters . etc

What has the army done, Its has plans for a 1500 T-90's and that's it.
And when question why The army chooses to spend Millions on T-72's , while a far superiors Arjun is available.

They say essentially.

Logictical issues, we simply cannot adapt, or change.

which 5th gen AC do they have? may I know? How many Aircraft carriers? How many nuclear submarine? How many Tejas inducted?

would love to have those figures from you. Oh incidentally, how many Landing Ships Tank/Troops (LSTs) does IN hold?

as to logic of T-90s, have posted enough of the same above.
 
i think you miss some points,.

I dont think so. I dont miss them. Am not trained to miss anything.

Arjun is a 54 Ton tank & will be placed on the borders of Pakistan where the train is either Deserts of Gujrat & Rajasthan or planes of punjab.

You mean, you wont transport the tanks there? You will assemble all of them there itself? Ok now I may sound daft. But if that is not the case, then do you know how many Class VI bridges we have in the region? Am sure you dont. In addition, have you any idea of the DCB defenses built on either side? And the topographical obstacle facing IA in Punjab? Kindly do some basic research for the same. It shall immensly helping in your understanding of the issue.


but the borders along China are mountanes & on tahnk let it be Arjun, T 90 or T 72 is suitable there. so IA has sent RFI for the light tanks.

I know the terrain. North Sikkim and Ladakh are excellent tankable country. Comparatively easy to lift T-90s and T-72s after breaking them down than Arjun (which anyways will have spares issues) RFI is for upgradation. We have assets in the location already. They have been there for over 2 decades now.

as far as lt issues of logistics & maintenance are concerns with the evolution of new systems you need to invest for these in all the cases, let it be IA, IN or IAF.

But none of them will compromise on war preparedness. And they are much smaller arm than IA. So dont even begin to compare!

but upgarding all the T72 is a shear loss of money.

Really? scenario: we accept Arjun and it shall take 10-15 years to induct (read my previous post to know why) and in the meanwhile we dump T-72s and are left with a thousand odd T-90s and few hundreds Vijayants, T-55s and "OBSOLETE" T-72s whose spares and ammunition is anyways not being produced any more as resources are being rejigged to induct Arjun (and T-90s at same time are being brought to strength) so are we supposed to request say PAF not to strike our ammunition dumps where the T-series tank ammo is lying and spares are kept as we are inducting a new tank?......... what a nightmare !!!!!!
 
Can upgradation improve 1)mobility..2)fire power..3)Armour...three basic things??? Anyone has idea about it? Plz share.

If the answer is not...there is no logic in upgrading T-72 which will be no match for modrn tanks in basic issues.

If yes....will there be any difference between upgradation and building a new????
 
Can upgradation improve 1)mobility..2)fire power..3)Armour...three basic things??? Anyone has idea about it? Plz share.

If the answer is not...there is no logic in upgrading T-72 which will be no match for modrn tanks in basic issues.

If yes....will there be any difference between upgradation and building a new????

Yes to all ....!

But it certainly does not surpass induction of a new platform which is generation ahead.

If you are talking only of Arjun, yes its better than T-72 as the latter was at its optimal design in late 70s whereas Arjun was so in 2006!!! So there shall always be a persistent gap.

By comparing the T-72 and Arjun,we are wandering off course. Its like comparing T-55 and T-72
and Vijayant with T-90. There can not be any comparision

The Ajeya standards will upgrade our present T-72 stocks to be sufficiently capable till middle of the coming decade. By that time a new tank shall be inducted and T-72s relegated slowly into reserves like T-55s and Vijayants (and a few Centurions still lying around). We kind of follow the US-Soviet doctrines in having 1st 2nd 3rd etc lines of equipment too. In case we need to expand our force level in acute stages of national crisis.

What I emphatically have always said is that the controversy is needless. 124 tanks (not even equipping more than 1 regiment fully) was forced on Army and the same was done under political pressure with assurance that the tank would be ready (by 2000).

DRDO should infact now concentrate in creating a Mk II version to be ready by 2015 from the experience it has gained, which shall be suitable platform for induction of the new generation of tanks instead of wasting its time on the present tank.

Few projects which army (specifically mechanized and armoured corps) had high hopes on and were not delivered by DRDO and alternatives to which were suppressed by DRDO on mere promises of Indegenisation and assured production of same "soon"

1. Abhay IFV : An Infantry Fighting/Carrier Vehicle meant to replace BMP-II Sarath Fighting Vehicle held by Indian Army Armored Divs/Independent Brigades/Regiments and Mechanized Units. Status - not likely to come. No word on it apart from some scrap on net.

2. Bhim SPG : DRDO repeatedly claimed to be making this in collaboration with Denel. There were issues as the main gun was to be mated with T-72 chasis and it was taking far too much time, but DRDO kept assuring the army and as a result no Artillery Equipment was inducted. The system was necessary for providing mobile firesupport to mechanized/armored forces in any offensive operation and is especially significant as IBGs come on ground. Status: Contract cancelled as GoI blacklisted the firm.
 
You said the Arjun is going to cause more problems then it can fix.
The tank that was custom tailored to the Indian Army has more problems then a T-72:what:

army Rubbish, Everything on that tank is as they requested.
Don't you find it even bit odd, given the tanks development time frame no one raised any of these issues when it was being made.

But suddenly now, There are all these logistics problems. The army has operated a heavy tank before, Centurion. The army even has special rail carriages for Arjun. They have a solution to all its so called logistical problems.




Rubbish, You know well enough how the army procures its equipment.
In fact when was the last time they even got artillery.

Tanks and Artillery the hallmarks of the modern army, Now look at the state of our tanks and artillery. Its a bloody disgrace.

I think we need the the Arjun, at the very least it can replace a whole list of outdated stuff.

get a new tank well lets build one with the Russians, But that tank wont be ready till 2020.

Arjun provides an easy way to modernize our forces

Hold on was someone called Idiot on disagreeing on this ? I do not think the tank were made as per Army specifications, Nowhere army was involved in different stages of development.

The Army had placed its Rs.17.60 billion order for the tanks in March 2000 Link


Results of trial below- Tell me why would someone should be interested ????

July 2005
- During the summer trials in 2005, it was reported that the Arjun suffered major problems with its main gun sight, suspension system, and fire control system. Moreover, engine failures occurred commonly in temperatures averaging 55-60 degrees Celsius
Result fail Link

Summer 2006- the 2006 army trial results showed that "the decade-old problems of overheating persist" and that "tank’s main subsystems, the fire control system (FCS) and integrated gunner’s main sight, which includes a thermal imager and laser range-finder, are rendered erratic and useless by the Arjun’s abnormally high peak internal temperature, which moves well beyond 55 degrees Celsius. This is in testimony to the Parliamentary committee.
Result - Failure - Link

September 2007 winter trials - the Indian army deemed Arjun's performance unsatisfactory, including at least four engine failures. Result Fail - Link

DRDO claimed sabotage Link

2008 summer trials- Auxiliary User Cum reliability trials (AUCRT) of the Arjun MBT was conducted from September 2007 to summer of 2008. In a report to the Parliamentary standing committee the Indian army deemed Arjun's performance unsatisfactory, including four engine failures within only 1000 kilometers. Link
The Army wrote in the report that during the "accelerated user-cum-reliability trials" in 2008, the Arjun "was found to have failure of power packs, low accuracy and consistency, failure of hydropneumatic suspension units, shearing of top rollers and chipping of gun barrels". Link

Sabotage was suspected, but the Army rejected that any sabotage happened during the trials.DRDO has installed a black box-like instrument in the indigenous main battle tank (MBT) Arjun, under development for nearly 36 years, following attempts to "sabotage" its engine. The instrument was installed after the Indian Army termed the September 2007 winter trials of the Arjun tank a "failure".Attempts to sabotage the trials of the Arjun tank have failed after the black box was installed, said authorities

Result - ?? Link1 Link 2
 
I am not happy with nonprofessional of DRDO nor with state of Procurement by Minister or Army and the source (Russia) everyone has to be blamed. But thing to note is its Army who is going to face the War not any other organizations. Taxpayer will keep on paying for all procurements Good or Bad, Well thought or ill thought. Forget T72 even T90 seems not ideal after reading below report.


Piercing the army's armour of deception
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi February 4, 2010, 0:31 IST

Vital facts on the Russian T-90 tank deal were suppressed and its performance on the field has been a disaster.

On August 24 last year, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) dressed up failure as achievement when — almost nine years after India bought the T-90 tank from Russia — the first 10 built-in-India T-90s were ceremonially rolled out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai.

No reasons were given for that delay. Nor did the Ministry of Defence (MoD) reveal the T-90’s ballooning cost, now a whopping Rs 17.5 crore. On November 30, 2006, the MoD told the Lok Sabha that the T-90 tank cost Rs 12 crore apiece. Parliament does not yet know about the 50 per cent rise in cost.

The story of the T-90 has been coloured by deception and obfuscation from even before the tank was procured. Business Standard has pieced together, from internal documents and multiple interviews with MoD sources, an account of how the Indian Army has saddled itself with an underperforming, yet overpriced, version of the Russian T-90.

The deception stemmed from the army’s determination to push through the T-90 contract despite vocal opposition from sections of Parliament. Former Prime Minister H D Deve Gowda argued — allegedly because a close associate had a commercial interest in continuing with T-72 production — that fitting the T-72 with modern fire control systems and night vision devices would be cheaper than buying the T-90. Deve Gowda correctly pointed out that even Russia’s army had spurned the T-90.

To bypass his opposition, the MoD and the army reached an understanding with Rosvoorouzhenie, Russia’s arms export agency. The T-90 would be priced only marginally higher than the T-72 by removing key T-90 systems; India would procure those through supplementary contracts after the T-90 entered service. Excluded from India’s T-90s was the Shtora active protection system, which protects the T-90 from incoming enemy missiles. This was done knowing well that Pakistan’s anti-tank defences are based heavily on missiles.

Other important systems were also pared. The MoD opted to buy reduced numbers of the INVAR missile, which the T-90 fires. Maintenance vehicles, which are vital to keep the T-90s running, were not included in the contract. All this allowed the government to declare before Parliament that the Russian T-90s cost just Rs 11 crore, while the assembled-in-India T-90s were Rs 12 crore apiece.


The MoD did not mention that these prices would rise when the supplementary contracts were negotiated. Nor did it reveal that India’s pared-down T-90s barely matched the performance of the Pakistan Army’s recently acquired T-80 UD tank, which India had cited as the threat that demanded the T-90.

FRAUD ON THE NATION?
* Key operational systems were kept out to show a comparable price
* Parliament wasn’t told and nor of the plan for supplementary contracts
* The performance on ground showed it was an appalling mistake
* Which has set in train even more costly cover-ups
* All this, while the indigenous Arjun is free of all these minuses


Worse was to follow when the initial batch of 310 T-90s entered service (124 bought off-the-shelf and 186 as knocked-down kits). It quickly became evident — and that too during Operation Parakram, with India poised for battle against Pakistan — that the T-90s were not battleworthy. The T-90’s thermal imaging (TI) sights, through which the tank aims its 125mm gun, proved unable to function in Indian summer temperatures. And, the INVAR missiles assembled in India simply didn’t work. Since nobody knew why, they were sent back to Russia.

Even more alarmingly, the army discovered that the T-90 sighting systems could not fire Indian tank ammunition, which was falling short of the targets. So, even as a panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90’s fire control computer for firing Indian ammunition, Russian ammunition was bought.

With Russia playing hardball, none of the supplementary contracts have yet gone through. The TI sights remain a problem. The army has decided to fit each T-90 with an Environment Control System, to cool the delicate electronics with a stream of chilled air. None of the world’s current tanks, other than France’s LeClerc, has such a system. The American Abrams and the British Challenger tanks fought in the Iraq desert without air-conditioning. India’s Arjun tank, too, has “hardened” electronics that function perfectly even in the Rajasthan summer.

Nor has the MoD managed to procure the Shtora anti-missile system. The Directorate General of Mechanised Forces now plans to equip India’s eventual 1,657-tank T-90 fleet with the advanced ARENA active protection system, for which it has budgeted Rs 2,500 crore in the Army Acquisition Plan for 2009-11.

The greatest concern arose when Russia held back on its contractual obligation to transfer the technology needed to build 1,000 T-90s in India. But, instead of pressuring Russia, the MoD rewarded it in 2007 with a contract for 347 more T-90s. In an astonishing Catch-22, the MoD argued that the new purchase was needed because indigenous production had not begun.

Next month, when the T-90 is measured against the Arjun in comparative trials, the T-90s’ drawbacks will not be evident. But, as officers who have operated the T-90 admit, these could be crucial handicaps in battle.

“It is for these reasons that I have consistently argued for supporting the Indian Arjun tank,” says General Shankar Roy Chowdhury, former army chief and himself a tankman. “Another country can hold India hostage in many ways. We need to place an order for several hundred Arjun tanks so that economies of scale can kick in and we can bring down the price even further.”

If the Arjun performs strongly in next month’s comparative trials around Suratgarh and Pokhran, that order could be in the offing.
 

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