Arjun News & Discussions

[Keysersoze]

Its a damn trial no matter who says otherwise. The IA doesnt wan it despite it being more capable than the T-90S. They have delayed the comparative trials deliberately.

In anycase, lets hope the comparative trials happen sooner than later, so that things are out in the open.

Malay the article stated OCT/NOV as the date, which in south Asian time means 2010

 

[luckyy]

after Arjun MBT , now it's turn of Tejas-LCA...

 

[Keysersoze]

Er mate the saga is not yet over....Why there are going to be even MORE trials remains to be seen.

 

[Hellfire]

Er mate the saga is not yet over....Why there are going to be even MORE trials remains to be seen.

definitely, but atleast IA accepted the product, now improvement can be done on existing structure ..... Hopefully though!!!!!!

 

[paritosh]

that says alot....i for one appreciate the IA's taste and their uncompromising attitude for excellence...only the best of the best.

 

[heartwinlion]

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

DRDO to deliver 79 tanks to Army

Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) in Avadi near Chennai will deliver 79 Arjun main battle tank (MBT), which was built indigenously by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), by March 2010. Each tank was built for Rs 19 crore.

After flagging off 16 MBT Arjun tanks from CVRDE, Avadi which was handed over to the Army, A Sivathanu Pillai, scientist and chief controller, research and development, DRDO, ministry of defence said total order placed by the army was 124 tanks. Of this 45 have been delivered. Remaining will be delivered by March 2010.

S Chandrasekar, additional DGOF (AV) said development started in March 1974. It took over three decades to develop the project. Delay is mainly due to several unexpected hindrances on account of foreign sanctions on India following its nuclear tests. Each tank was costing around Rs 19 crore.

The army placed the final order after tanks went through serious of test by Accelerated Usage Cum Reliability Trials in five phases on two tanks covering more than 8,000 km and 800 rounds of firing in each tank, he added.

The tanks will have 1400 HP engine, which was bought from Germany, and can travel at a speed of 70kms an hour and capable of firing upto 3-4 kms both in day and night times, K Sridhar, DRDO scientist and spokesperson CVRD. He added, import component, including engine, is 25-30 per cent.

Meanwhile Pillai said the defence forces plan to reduce their foreign dependency for developing their military equipments. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) had set a target to gradually increase the indigenous content in defence equipments to 70 per cent from the current 30 per cent. According to studies good and services worth around $10 billion likely to be sourced within India for various defence requirements.

He added: “earlier our (India's defence equipment) requirements were dominated by foreign inflows which has started changing now. The country in the last few years has built its own capabilities.”

Pillai, said vessels for Indian Navy, combat aircrafts for the Indian Air Force, missiles, sensors, radars, weapon locator's, tanks, sonas and other electronic systems are now getting designed and developed within the country.

The major problem is procuring components for our deliverables, said Pillai. To address the issue a programme CODE (Components for Deliverables) was launched to increase the localisation.

 

[luckyy]

DRDO has vertually chalanging T-90 in a comparitive trials.
IA always has the taste to choose the best.
they has given Arjun MBT their confidence , says it all.

 

[maverick2009]

Another 79 Arjun will join the Indian Army by March 2010 thats like 9 months away. To Form 3 Regiments.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10858

Nice to see India buying its own hardware

 

[Infanteer]

Dude the most common contact is 300 metres. Navy seals used it (mp5) during GW1. So your assertion is incorrect.

MP5's maximum range is 150 meters. i don't know where you got 300 meters ?
Its an accurate weapon within its range..

 

[indiatech]

CVRDE, Avadi gets State of the Art Engine Test Facility

Thursday, 04 June 2009

Chennai : The Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establisihment (CVRDE), Avadi now has a newly created State of the Art Engine Test Facility. This Engine Test Facility has two test cells capable of testing the engines up to 1500 KW and 800 KW power respectively.

Dr. A. Sivathanupillai, Distinguished Scientist, Chief Controller (R&D) NS & ACE, DRDO Hqrs, New Delhi inaugurated the Engine Test Facility at CVRDE, Avadi. Shri S Sundaresh Outstanding Scientist, Director CVRDE Avadi was also present.
Dr. A. Sivathanupillai, Chief Controller (R&D) also recalled the other programmes of CVRDE for developing Battle Management System and creation of a Simulation facility for Main Battle Tank. He called upon one and all to continue their sustained hard work for their success.

Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establisihment (CVRDE) located at Avadi is an important Establishment under DRDO. It is dedicated towards design and development of Armoured Fighting Vehicles for the Indian Army.

 

[Screaming Skull]

Arjun for Exports?​

Thursday, Jun 04, 2009

The recent ceremony in Avadi, near Chennai, when 16 Arjun Main Battle Tanks were rolled out by its manufacturer, Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) — a part-supply for the 43rd regiment based in Rajasthan — brought cheers to those involved in the effort, both serving and retired alike.

Whether the cheers will last is a moot point as the Director-General Mechanised Forces (DGMF), who was present at the function, was silent about further orders for these tanks. HVF will complete the present and the only order so far by 2010 placed in the beginning of the decade. For long, it appeared that the Army firmly believed that having an indigenous tank in its stable was an idea whose time would never come. This will be evident if the course of history of even the past ten years, let alone the previous two decades, is traced.
Meeting standards

In 2004 the first pilot batch of tanks was handed over in the presence of the then Defence Minister, Mr Pranab Mukherjee. The Army, however, insisted, before production could proceed, on incorporating stringent specifications for fording capabilities — the tanks being under water at 2.1 meters depth with only 30 minutes preparation time.

This too was successfully demonstrated in the presence of Mr A. K. Antony, Defence Minister, in 2007 as well, by the cooperative efforts of HVF and the DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation). Not easily satisfied, the Army now felt it was necessary to carry out (ACURT) Accelerated Usage Cum Reliability Trials of a few tanks; in layman’s parlance, ‘Driving to death’ that includes running them for 8,000 km and firing 800 rounds of ammunition.

Ostensibly this was to work out the requirement of life-time spares although the same could have been done using advanced statistical methods, along with vendor inputs, extrapolating the vast experience of the Army in handling tanks of different vintages and designs since the Second World War. AURCT was also completed in August 2008 and modifications, as required by the experience gained, were successfully incorporated, and the first batch of tanks for this regiment was handed over in March 2009.

To reinforce the morale of HVF and the DRDO, a third-party audit by an independent international tank manufacturer certified that the Arjun was an excellent warhorse, particularly for deserts. Tanks are durable products involving decades of effort and years of manufacture. They are expected to survive not only enemy shelling but also stay with the Army for at least half a century.

Therefore, to acquire true value experience by the Mechanised Forces, tanks of a class and specification should be deployed in sufficient strength so that almost every jawan, non-commissioned officer (NCO) and officer in the armoured corps is imparted has repeated bouts of training and a stint of at least three years in a regiment of Arjun tanks.

This is possible only if the population of Arjun tanks in the Army is over 500 and that too built up within three years. However, the Army continues to have its eyes fixed on purchasing more and more of T-90 tanks from Russia during the same period.
Stalling the exercise

Miffed at the continued reluctance of the Army and armed with the credentials certified by independent audit, the DRDO is challenging the former to conduct comparative trials of T-90 and Arjun. The Army stalled such an exercise by first wanting at least 45 tanks in the regiment and then postponing the trials to October.

The Army is also inserting tactical elements in the test directives, such as, capturing a target which will take the focus away from equitable comparison of equipment capability. However, happily for HVF and the DRDO, it appears that a serious RFP (Request For Proposal) has been received from a Latin American country.
Who knows? Fortune may favour Arjun and it may be seen in service in larger numbers abroad than in the country of its origin.

(The author is a former member, Ordnance Factory Board.)

The Hindu Business Line : Will the Arjun tank keep rolling?

 

[Contrarian]

Ii am kinda curious as to why the IA does not want it.

Cannot say. Could be multitude of reasons. They are rather keen on the FMBT with Russia. That could be a major reason. They want it by 2020. So that give roughly 10 years more for current generation of tanks. Probably they dont want to introduce a new tank just right now, if they already plan on replacing it in 10 years. It might be entrenched Russian lobby.

There is another aspect of logistics. A new train of logistics would have to be setup. Current train wagons cannot transport Arjuns. They would need new ones, then comes the bridges near the Pak border. I think they are not Class 18. So cannot support Arjuns crossing over, etc, etc.

These are speculations on my part. They could be right or wrong.

 

[Screaming Skull]

Arjun for Exports?​

Thursday, Jun 04, 2009

The recent ceremony in Avadi, near Chennai, when 16 Arjun Main Battle Tanks were rolled out by its manufacturer, Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) — a part-supply for the 43rd regiment based in Rajasthan — brought cheers to those involved in the effort, both serving and retired alike.

Whether the cheers will last is a moot point as the Director-General Mechanised Forces (DGMF), who was present at the function, was silent about further orders for these tanks. HVF will complete the present and the only order so far by 2010 placed in the beginning of the decade. For long, it appeared that the Army firmly believed that having an indigenous tank in its stable was an idea whose time would never come. This will be evident if the course of history of even the past ten years, let alone the previous two decades, is traced.
Meeting standards

In 2004 the first pilot batch of tanks was handed over in the presence of the then Defence Minister, Mr Pranab Mukherjee. The Army, however, insisted, before production could proceed, on incorporating stringent specifications for fording capabilities — the tanks being under water at 2.1 meters depth with only 30 minutes preparation time.

This too was successfully demonstrated in the presence of Mr A. K. Antony, Defence Minister, in 2007 as well, by the cooperative efforts of HVF and the DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation). Not easily satisfied, the Army now felt it was necessary to carry out (ACURT) Accelerated Usage Cum Reliability Trials of a few tanks; in layman’s parlance, ‘Driving to death’ that includes running them for 8,000 km and firing 800 rounds of ammunition.

Ostensibly this was to work out the requirement of life-time spares although the same could have been done using advanced statistical methods, along with vendor inputs, extrapolating the vast experience of the Army in handling tanks of different vintages and designs since the Second World War. AURCT was also completed in August 2008 and modifications, as required by the experience gained, were successfully incorporated, and the first batch of tanks for this regiment was handed over in March 2009.

To reinforce the morale of HVF and the DRDO, a third-party audit by an independent international tank manufacturer certified that the Arjun was an excellent warhorse, particularly for deserts. Tanks are durable products involving decades of effort and years of manufacture. They are expected to survive not only enemy shelling but also stay with the Army for at least half a century.

Therefore, to acquire true value experience by the Mechanised Forces, tanks of a class and specification should be deployed in sufficient strength so that almost every jawan, non-commissioned officer (NCO) and officer in the armoured corps is imparted has repeated bouts of training and a stint of at least three years in a regiment of Arjun tanks.

This is possible only if the population of Arjun tanks in the Army is over 500 and that too built up within three years. However, the Army continues to have its eyes fixed on purchasing more and more of T-90 tanks from Russia during the same period.
Stalling the exercise

Miffed at the continued reluctance of the Army and armed with the credentials certified by independent audit, the DRDO is challenging the former to conduct comparative trials of T-90 and Arjun. The Army stalled such an exercise by first wanting at least 45 tanks in the regiment and then postponing the trials to October.

The Army is also inserting tactical elements in the test directives, such as, capturing a target which will take the focus away from equitable comparison of equipment capability. However, happily for HVF and the DRDO, it appears that a serious RFP (Request For Proposal) has been received from a Latin American country.
Who knows? Fortune may favour Arjun and it may be seen in service in larger numbers abroad than in the country of its origin.

(The author is a former member, Ordnance Factory Board.)

The Hindu Business Line : Will the Arjun tank keep rolling?

 

[le_souriceau]

I think it will be interesting. Here is my (with help of computer) translation of russian news article about Arjun (may 2009).

Arjun missed
India is ready to abandon the tank of their own in favor of T-90

May 24, 2009, Indian media reported on the intentions of the defense department to conduct comparative field trials national Arjun tank and Russian T-90. Earlier the military had planned to start these exercises in May and June of 2009, putting them in a small number of machines. But for unknown reasons, decided to make the test more ambitious - they will attend two regiment, one of whom will be armed with the Indian and the other - Russian tanks. However, if the T-90 has long been armed with the Indian Army, the products of local production in the army yet familiar enough.

The program to develop the first national Indian Arjun tank beats all the records not only in length but also by the number of technical problems. In 1972, the Army Indian Army set the requirements for future main battle tanks, as was chosen by Arjun, named in honor of the legendary warrior Arjuna, hero of the national epic "Mahabharata."

Initially, the Indians were planning to create a 40-ton machine, armed with 105-mm gun, but then the standards have changed: the mass of the tank was up 58.5 tons and the caliber of weapons - 120 millimeters.

Development of the tank began in 1974, one of the core units of defense research and development of India (Defence Research and Development Organization, DRDO). The work was carried out with the participation of the German company Krauss-Maffei, known as a producer of the famous Battle Tank Leopard, as well as several other companies from Germany. Therefore, as noted by the experts, the appearance and characteristics of the tank Arjun are very similar to the German Leopard 2A4.

In addition, the design of machines used for more than 60 per cent of imported components. So call this tank can be a purely Indian perhaps with great stretch.

During the development of machinery has increased the cost of the program many times, due to changes in technical specifications, as well as inflation. Thus, if the initial development of the Indians were planning to stay in the 3.5 million dollars, by 2005 the project has been estimated at 3 billion dollars. But quite seriously by the local standards of financial investments is not speeded up the development of the tank and does not deliver the producer of numerous technical difficulties.

Arjun Tank
Crew - 4 persons.
Weight - 58.5 tonnes
Length - 10,6 m.
Width - 3.8 m.
Height - 2,3 m.
Speed - 72 km / h
Mightily. Engine 1400 L / s
Cruising range - 200 km

The first prototype tank prospective Indian Army DRDO demonstrated after more than ten years since the beginning of the development - in 1985. Initially, the military planned to deliver by the 1500 tanks, although in 2000 decided to limit itself to only 124 tanks. But the first tank, sent the army to conduct the tests, the military returned to the manufacturer for further development. Grade Arjun in various modifications done so far and every time at the next stage identifies the new disadvantages.

For example, in 2005, when the tests were identified problem Arjun sights, pendants, and fire control systems. In addition, under conditions when the air temperature reaching 55-60 degrees Celsius, the German made engines began to fail. In 2007, the military also expressed dissatisfaction with precision weapons and other technical characteristics.

In the same year, during testing in desert conditions the representatives of the Indian army said that it is extremely disappointed with the first national tank, with 14 reporting deficiencies. These include, besides those already mentioned problems, was also added to low speed.

2008 and does become disastrous for the developer of Indian machine which, by the way, does not necessarily agree with the claims of the military, and even declared sabotage during the test. This year, in particular, the defense establishment had signed a contract with Moscow for the supply of 347 T-90, which at that time were already armed with the Indian army.

The military also announced their intention to adopt after 2020 a new main battle tank, which will have little to do with the Arjun. Their assistance in the development of Russia has proposed. In addition, representatives of the Land Forces of India confirmed that it did not intend to purchase additional batch tank Arjun, in addition to those already ordered 124 units.

The T-90
Crew - 3 people.
Weight - 46.5 tonnes
Length - 9,5 m.
Width - 3.7 m.
Height - 2,2 m.
Speed - 65 km / h
Mightily. Engine 840 l / s
Cruising range - 650 km

All of these factors, as noted by the experts, further exacerbated the situation and the already long-standing project. However, DRDO has yet to lose hope of his army up to 500 tanks, while the main battle tank Arjun has hardly become - it is obvious that the military did not hide their sympathies in favor of a more reliable and tested Russian technology. One may assume that the comparative tests of two tanks, which are scheduled for August 2009, and finally buried the project, or would the first Indian tank another, perhaps last, chance.

Obviously, the Delhi development of main battle tank is not so much a matter of strengthening the military power of the army, how much prestige. Neighboring Pakistan, which is the eternal enemy and rival of India, managed to create its own main battle tank Al-Khalid in much more quickly. Suffice it to say that today armed with the Pakistani army has faced more than 300 such machines, although the development of the tank began only in 1990.

True, called Al-Khalid purely Pakistani tank can also be only loosely - it was created on the basis of Soviet and Chinese technology, with the participation of Ukraine and has received a lot of imported components. In the future, the Army of Pakistan are planning to purchase up to 600 tanks of local production, although they also found and foreign consumers - in May 2008 the army of Sri Lanka ordered a batch of 22 Al-Khalid.

India's tank after many decades of development has few prospects even in the domestic market, to say nothing about the outside. For a country which is one of the world leaders in the cost of weapons, so softly say, not quite solid. And despite recent attempts to rescue the project, the chances of favorable outcome for the Indian tank is rather low.

Andrei Fyodorov

 

[gubbi]

I think it will be interesting. Here is my (with help of computer) translation of russian news article about Arjun (may 2009).

Arjun missed
India is ready to abandon the tank of their own in favor of T-90
..........

India's tank after many decades of development has few prospects even in the domestic market, to say nothing about the outside. For a country which is one of the world leaders in the cost of weapons, so softly say, not quite solid. And despite recent attempts to rescue the project, the chances of favorable outcome for the Indian tank is rather low.

Andrei Fyodorov

This seems like more bollocks to market the T-90. Not that I have anything against the formidable T-90, but Arjun MBT is almost at par with T-90 if not better.

heres a little piece I found about this.. yeah I am quoting a blog by a Ajai Shukla.. (Broadsword blog)

Tuesday, 17 June 2008

Arjun versus T-90: Army avoiding trials (link is the title)

by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 17th June 08

India’s Arjun tank is fighting its first battle even before it enters service with the army. The Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) and key Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials, confident that the Arjun is superior to the army’s Russian T-72 and T-90 tanks, are demanding “comparative trials”, where the Arjun, the T-72 and the T-90, are put through endurance and firing trials in identical conditions.

But the army --- particularly the nodal Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF) --- is shying away. Earlier, the DGMF declared that the T-72 and T-90 were proven tanks, which needed no further trials. Now, with the MoD adding its voice to the demand for comparative trials, the DGMF has told Business Standard that they must be put off until the army gets a full squadron of Arjun tanks (14 tanks) and absorbs the expertise to use them.

DRDO sources say the army is stonewalling on accepting the Arjun by demanding levels of performance that neither of its Russian tanks can deliver. Meanwhile, more T-90s are being imported from Russia on the plea that the army is falling short of tanks.

The DRDO’s fears are grounded in experience. On 28th July 2005, Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee informed Parliament, “The Arjun tank is superior to (the) T-90 tank due to its high power to weight ratio, superior fire on the move capability during day and night and excellent ride comfort. MBT Arjun has gone through all the tests and it is meeting the (requirements) of the Army.”

But a year later, in December 2007, India bought 347 more T-90s for Rs 4900 crores. That despite the MoD’s admission in Parliament that the 310 T-90s purchased earlier had problems with their Invar missile systems, and the thermal imagers that are crucial for night fighting.

A comparative trial, says the DRDO, will conclusively establish that the Arjun is a better tank than the T-90. That will at least put a stop to the import of more T-90s.

But the DGMF is putting off such a trial. The DG of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj, told Business Standard, “The Arjun is based on a very stringent GSQR and is in a class by itself. User trials are conducted based on this GSQR. Nevertheless, comparative trials will be conducted once a squadron worth of tanks (i.e. 14 Arjun tanks) are inducted in the army.”

This new insistence on 14 tanks will delay the trials at least till December 08. In 2005, the army had agreed to comparative trials, with five Arjun tanks pitted against five T-72s and an equal number of T-90s. The DGMF had even written the trial directive, spelling out how trials would be conducted. Those trials were postponed as the Arjun was not ready to operate in high summer temperatures. Now the Arjun is ready, but the army is not.


Top MoD officials are no longer buying the DGMF’s argument that the Arjun is a dud; the MoD wants comparative trials too. Minister of State for Defence Production, Rao Inderjit Singh, told Business Standard, “The proof of the pudding will be in comparing the Arjun tank with the T-90 tank, as imported. The T-90 is supposed to be a frontline tank; let it have it out with the Arjun. Let them slug it out in the desert… and see which comes off best.”

Besides demanding more Arjun tanks in the trials, the DGMF is also proposing to conduct the trials differently. Comparative trials are normally a straightforward test of equipment capability, with all the tanks driving through the same course and firing at similar targets to determine which of them does better. But the DGMF now plans to add a tactical --- and therefore subjective --- dimension. The Arjun, the T-72 and the T-90 squadrons will be given operational tasks, e.g. capturing a hill some 150 kilometres away.

The DRDO is crying foul. Major General HM Singh, who spearheaded the Arjun’s development for the last 28 years until he retired a fortnight ago, points out that inserting tactics into the trials would give the army a way of putting down the Arjun. In a tactical exercise the tactical skills of the crew --- something that is irrelevant in evaluating a tank ---can determine the outcome of the trials. Gen HM Singh asks, “What is it that cannot be determined with five tanks, but can be with fourteen?”

These comments on that page is also worth quoting..

* Rahul said...

DGMF is bullshitting Indian taxpayer.... T-90 was not night-fighting capable MBT when it joined IA. Later T-90 was upgrade. Why IA allowed it to evolve without declaring it a dud. When INSAS came in. Army declare it a dud. But instead of getting IAI Tavor. Why they still want a lethal carbine?
Something which comes from outside is OK anyway. But when same or on-par equipment comes with a prefix 'indigenous' army comments...OH my god!! it's not combat fit. We can't fight with a dud!
How IN has managed to pull so many war winning solutions from DRDO from which IAF and IA are still to get a JET and a MBT respectively?

IA just love to play 'Game Rouble' and enjoy 'White Skin'!

* Abhimans said...

Mr. Shukla, words fail me to describe how deeply the series of 3 investigative articles on the Arjun's "plight", are appreciated by me.

At a time when it is a norm for every uninitiated and "newbie" journalist to join the "herd" of "DRDO bashers", you chose to 'swim against the tide', and unearthed for the nation, how the jawan is being denied a modern, lethal and safe tank. This investigation is not only an eye-opener for the public (and us "fans" of Arjun), but should also be heard by the Defence minister himself.

It has been speculated at various defence fora since the past few years, that the Arjun's induction is being 'thwarted' because of deeply rooted corruption, and not due to any Army claims of "low" performance etc. However, under the weight of a totally one-sided and 'prejudiced' media, there was no concrete proof, until your series of reports.

I may also highlight that DRDO chiefs have given various press releases and interviews since 2003-04, saying that the Arjun has passed the recent-most trials, and is ready for mass production and induction. However, the media -- especially the Indian Express and Tims of India -- never carried those reports, but carried large reports only highlighting the Army's point of view of "poor" performance.

Of course, I would also criticize your series of investigative journalism partly because the 'high' or motivation for it comes from being against the 'Establishment' --- which is every journalist's "secretly" nurtured feeling. Nevertheless, the impact of this series must be felt by the Defence minister and the Army Chief.

Now, it remains to be seen whether the Indian Express and ToI will continue to run stories against the Arjun, or whether for journalism's "sake", they will -- for once -- also air DRDO's and the tank driver's part of the story.

Thank you.