Arjun News & Discussions

[nitesh]

Go back to my post: when one chooses a system, one looks at multiple factors.

In this case, let us limit ourselves to two: cost and capability.

T-90 satisfies both these parameters; the other tanks you have mentioned do not.

What is this go and search in the net the georgia conflict (the most recent ones) check the battle of 1991 in IRAQ what has happened to the tanks there. Check what was done by marveka's. In T series there is absolutely no chance of survival when hit. According to you which cost is more human life or so called budget? DGMF will not go bankrupt if 500 arjun comes in.

 

[vish]

What is this go and search in the net the georgia conflict (the most recent ones) check the battle of 1991 in IRAQ what has happened to the tanks there. Check what was done by marveka's. In T series there is absolutely no chance of survival when hit. According to you which cost is more human life or so called budget? DGMF will not go bankrupt if 500 arjun comes in.

Very true, but as I said: problem is money and the IA's existing set-up, which is more T-series oriented.

Plus, 500 Arjuns won't come alone; what about their logistic backbone (extra supply trucks, additional ammunition, additional fuel, additional fuel tankers)?

Also, what about doctrine and training?

Plus, DGMF (the man is experienced in armored-warfare; you and me are not) thinks the T-90 suits him fine, so why the fuss?

 

[nitesh]

Very true, but as I said: problem is money and the IA's existing set-up, which is more T-series oriented.

Plus, 500 Arjuns won't come alone; what about their logistic backbone (extra supply trucks, additional ammunition, additional fuel, additional fuel tankers)?

Also, what about doctrine and training?

Plus, DGMF (the man is experienced in armored-warfare; you and me are not) thinks the T-90 suits him fine, so why the fuss?

Then why the GSQR was laid for for this type of tank? Hadn't this thinking came at that time? So all the T series tanks are the exactly same then. Why we are buying the same tanks with different names?

 

[vish]

Then why the GSQR was laid for for this type of tank?

That I agree is a major goof-up.

Hadn't this thinking came at that time?

It didn't, and this is another goof-up.

So all the T series tanks are the exactly same then. Why we are buying the same tanks with different names?

Nites please tell me that's a joke. T-90S is much better than the T-72M1. They are similar, and not same.

 

[nitesh]

That I agree is a major goof-up.
It didn't, and this is another goof-up.
Nites please tell me that's a joke. T-90S is much better than the T-72M1. They are similar, and not same.

So exactly there is a goof up. Every body has to take a blame. Every tank is different. A tank is not a tank it is a combination of sub systems. So it is not simple to get any new tank in the system (read money spending). DRDO is developing a tank for the first time. So it is all more important to support them in this endeavor. IA has 61 regiments. Each regiment consists of 45-55 tanks (55 number is for T 55 and from t 72 onwards it is 45) So can't DGMF have 8-10 regiments of arjun (350-450 tanks) in inventory. So point comes about maintenance and all sort of stuff. So when the new gen tank comes online (in 15-20 years time line) how you will make the transition. Isn't that going to be easy/ How the crew which is trained for some old tech will make the transition (remember it is not only about money). Isn't the crews equipped with experience of arjun will come in handy then? Above all isn't this will simply help the domestic industry to get on to it's feet.

 

[p2prada]

T-90 is Russia's most modern tank. Arjun is India's first made tank and through it's journey contains many problems. The Russians have more experience and technical know how in making tanks than India.

So it is difficult to convince that the Arjun is better. The Arjun might be better in some parameters, but overall, we cannot dismiss the T-90s capability.

During tests, the T-72 and T-90s fired at the ARJUN at point blank range. The shells just bounced off the armour. The only way to kill the ARJUN in the subcontinent is using top attack ATGMs or a rear attack. The frontal and side armours are too damn tough even for the T-90s to penetrate. I am only saying ARJUNs survival rate is far superior to the T-90. Not to mention, the ARJUN is a class apart and also the first of its kind in the subcontinent.

Electronics can be changed anytime. For eg: when the army complained DRDO was using analog systems which were inferior to the T-90 products. DRDO completely changed the electronics in the ARJUN in six months by importing french and israeli electronics. It pushed the ARJUN way past the T-90s capabilities.

Even now, DRDO is pitching for mock tank battles between the T-90 and ARJUN. DRDO is confident of beating the T-90. The amy is just giving excuses to avoid the trails cause they know they will be beaten.

Nevertheless, IA is still not equipped to handle a heavy MBT.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Very true, but as I said: problem is money and the IA's existing set-up, which is more T-series oriented.

Vish sorry to butt into your discussion. When you say "money" are you talknig about the cost it will take to invest in Arjun vis a vi T90. Don't you think 3 or 4 million $ invested and circulated into Indian economy is wiser than the savings we occur by spending 2.5 million$ which we will be circulating in Russian industries strenthening their industrial abd sub contract industrial base. Now envision a massive order for Arjun(Hypothetically speaking) Think where those millions of $$ will end up, what a boost it will be to out MIC and how many number of subcontractors and fringe industries will come up. Think and think again. Do give a thought to what I say.

Plus, 500 Arjuns won't come alone; what about their logistic backbone (extra supply trucks, additional ammunition, additional fuel, additional fuel tankers)?

Fuel tankes will be the one used for T90's and T72 everything you said except for armed recovery vehicles can be same one we are now using.

Also, what about doctrine and training?

What about it? Arjun perfectly fits into our coldstart doctrine. It is not like t90 allows you to air drop it anywhere!!!!

Plus, DGMF (the man is experienced in armored-warfare; you and me are not) thinks the T-90 suits him fine, so why the fuss?

You are assuming he is not biased. In that case why does he chicken out for comparitive trials?

 

[nitesh]

All I am trying to say here is that arjun is a complex system developed for the first time. So it is important that the user gives it's support to it. If the user does not support the product there is no point in keep developing it. Because it is not similar to the systems the user is used too. Every product has some plus and negative points no product is invincible. Same is with the product arjun. But it is about supporting the domestic industry. So just buy them in number not in very high numbers but in a decent amount so that a proper experience can be gained and domestic industry gets a chance to stand on it's feet. Any way let's wait for the comparative trials in february. Let's hope for the best.

 

[Nishan_101]

Salam,
I wanted 2 ask some seniors that why contri like India wanted 2 continue a projet like Arjun(started in early70's) which is quite a failure and wanted 2 ask u can they just concentrate on their licence production by making it quality production which they have a good experience but they done wrong in past with T-90's& upgradation of T-72's.Also they can go for ex-U.S M1A1 or Callenger-II's in good nos.(About 1000's) and they can put those systems which they ave developed for Arjun on upgraded and licence produced tanks as well as on New ones.
reply me
ALLAH-HAFIZ ok

 

[nitesh]

Salam,
I wanted 2 ask some seniors that why contri like India wanted 2 continue a projet like Arjun(started in early70's) which is quite a failure and wanted 2 ask u can they just concentrate on their licence production by making it quality production which they have a good experience but they done wrong in past with T-90's& upgradation of T-72's.Also they can go for ex-U.S M1A1 or Callenger-II's in good nos.(About 1000's) and they can put those systems which they ave developed for Arjun on upgraded and licence produced tanks as well as on New ones.
reply me
ALLAH-HAFIZ ok

again what u said not made any sense put it in plain english so that people like me can understand

 

[vish]

Nitesh and IPF:

500 Arjun tanks will cost a bomb; their logistics tail will cost a nuke.

I'll give you one example:

You say we can use existing tankers; that is incorrect; we will need more fuel tankers.

And forget the cost of buying these additional fuel tankers, what about the cost of running these? Won't you be running these for a lifetime? What about their maintenance? Won't you be hiring further logistics personnel? Won't you be paying these personnel for a lifetime? Won't these tankers need parking space? Won't these personnel need living quarters?

And all this additional expense for what advantage? And at what cost? Also count in the fact that the T-90 meets IA's needs just about fine. Yes, there are issues but by and large the IA is very happy with the tank.

Plus the whole doctrine and the entire training procedure of the IA will need major revamping. What about the costs that will be encountered therein? Won't people need training to use Arjun effectively? Won't doctrinal changes be required as Arjun drinks more fuel (therefore, increased stoppages) and are a major qualitative leap? Won't the other arms of our Strike Corps or IBGs need to be revamped around the Arjun (this is again a very resource-consuming process)? Won't the entire spare parts set-up need revamping? Won't logistical complexities increase as the IA will now be operating two very different tank types?

I'm not denying that local industry needs to be encouraged, but do you not think that inducting Arjun is somewhat unfeasible, given our cost constraints?

Hence, why not try and incorporate inputs from the Arjun so as to keep the R&D momentum flowing?

Further, I'm not inclined to buy the argument of the DGMF being corrupt or biased.

He is not allowing a competitive trial because he knows the T-90 will be clobbered; then, will the government and babus accept the fact they are being nasty bean counters or that we do not have money for the country's defense? No, they won't; the blame will come squarely on the IA and specifically the DGMF. More Arjuns will be pushed down IA's throat without catering to the logistical handicaps. Further, this will be done from the existing budget, thereby cutting on IA’s other pressing needs (net-centric infantry suits and helmets and artillery for example).

 

[nitesh]

You still have not answered if this sort of tank was not feasible then why this type of GSQR was given. Why the same AC was made issue for arjun and not for T 90? Why it is getting upgraded as of now? Why not inducted a tank and made improvements in that. And why they are not able to come up with a design in 2 years? read this CAREFULLY (India's future tank nowhere in sight by AMARJEET MALIK-business-standard.com from Military School,Future Infantry Combat Vehicle, Future Main Battle Tank, Directorate General of Mechanised Forces, ArjunTank, Advanced Version of Arjun, Merkava Tan)

your bomb and nuke theory is just a farce nothing else how come 10% of the tank fleet can bankrupt the whole DGMF I don't know.

added later: any way this trial thing is going to get some un expected result be prepared for that. Some how I feel DGMF is on it's way to perfectly kill arjun project. Sad nothing can be done about it

 

[vish]

You still have not answered if this sort of tank was not feasible then why this type of GSQR was given. Why the same AC was made issue for arjun and not for T 90? Why it is getting upgraded as of now? Why not inducted a tank and made improvements in that. And why they are not able to come up with a design in 2 years? read this CAREFULLY (India's future tank nowhere in sight by AMARJEET MALIK-business-standard.com from Military School,Future Infantry Combat Vehicle, Future Main Battle Tank, Directorate General of Mechanised Forces, ArjunTank, Advanced Version of Arjun, Merkava Tan)

your bomb and nuke theory is just a farce nothing else how come 10% of the tank fleet can bankrupt the whole DGMF I don't know.

added later: any way this trial thing is going to get some un expected result be prepared for that. Some how I feel DGMF is on it's way to perfectly kill arjun project. Sad nothing can be done about it

Didn't I say earlier that the GSQRs were a major goof-up? I asked because of that goof-up, should we commit one more?

As far as inducting a tank is concerned (even to 10% of the force levels), if you still haven't understood how costly and time-consuming it would be, you never would.

Nobody thought that the T-90 would need ACs; the IA found it out later.

As far as trials are concerned, I agree with you; however, you miss one point: the DGMF has no choice.

 

[nitesh]

Didn't I say earlier that the GSQRs were a major goof-up? I asked because of that goof-up, should we commit one more?

As far as inducting a tank is concerned (even to 10% of the force levels), if you still haven't understood how costly and time-consuming it would be, you never would.

Nobody thought that the T-90 would need ACs; the IA found it out later.

As far as trials are concerned, I agree with you; however, you miss one point: the DGMF has no choice.

you hadn't read it right any way read it

Experts at the seminar — including Israeli tank legend, Maj Gen Yossi Ben-Hanan, who designed that country’s successful Merkava tank — pointed out that tank design is evolutionary, each design building upon the previous one.

Is it still not clear what i am trying to say. Again repeating my self. you have to START somewhere.

 

[p2prada]

you hadn't read it right any way read it

Experts at the seminar — including Israeli tank legend, Maj Gen Yossi Ben-Hanan, who designed that country’s successful Merkava tank — pointed out that tank design is evolutionary, each design building upon the previous one.

Is it still not clear what i am trying to say. Again repeating my self. you have to START somewhere.

DRDO will be designing newer variants for the ARJUN. Each newer variant will be better than the existing one. DRDO will receive funding. just because we dont induct it doesn't mean the ARJUN is scrapped.

We understand what you are trying to say?? We support it too. It will obviously be good if the ARJUNs are inducted. All we are suggesting is that a new class of tanks is still too early for us to handle. We will need a major defense hike to actually be able to induct the ARJUNs successfully.