Arjun-II MBT development l Updates & discussion.

[manojb]

read my previous posts in this thread to discover how minor weaknesses major in the battlefield. If Arjun was so desirable, IA would have straight away placed an adequate order, not a "trial" one. IA is still reluctant to induct it in numbers, the recent figure of Mk-2 order is a clear example of lack of confidence in an overly hyped yet under performing mbt.

@Dazzler
what's your opinion about Type99 chinese tank?

 

[Genesis]

@Dazzler
what's your opinion about Type99 chinese tank?

You have to look at the roles of each tank, China has 2,500 type 96 tanks, they proven themselves in the Tank competition in Russia by having far superior fire power, but also protection which wasn't on show.

The 96 has a weakness in engines which was due to lack of tech in the 90s, but also to reduce price. Which is very important.


We consider price to be a very big thing, you can't mass produce something that's too expensive to build and to maintain.

The type 99 is about a couple of million dollars, at most the latest models may reach about 3.5 million, that we have 700+ right now, most likely more.

Can we build a better tank? Yes, but costs is very important, if you do too much here you have to cut back else where. Right now even China has major holes that we need to plug.

 

[Dazzler]

@Dazzler
what's your opinion about Type99 chinese tank?

i would dearly go into details, but it will derail the thread. Simple put, Type-99 has seen serious revamps in its lifetime, from electronics, fire control, engine in particular was a big hassle, but overall it stands as a worthy opponent.

Recent examples such as Type-99A2s are formidable adversaries, having new armour modules, improved gun, fcs and auto tracking, new generation thermal imagers (still 2nd gen when compared to EU thermal imagers), longer apfsds penetrators can ensure not many tanks in the region challenge it. Overall, type-99 series is a better weapon system than Russian T-90 series.

Back to topic

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

i would dearly go into details, but it will derail the thread. Simple put, Type-99 has seen serious revamps in its lifetime, from electronics, fire control, engine in particular was a big hassle, but overall it stands as a worthy opponent.

Recent examples such as Type-99A2s are formidable adversaries, having new armour modules, improved gun, fcs and auto tracking, new generation thermal imagers (still 2nd gen when compared to EU thermal imagers), longer apfsds penetrators can ensure not many tanks in the region challenge it. Overall, type-99 series is a better weapon system than Russian T-90 series.

Back to topic

bro ... you opinion needed here:

Pakistan Army testing MBT-3000 next moth ? | Page 3

 

[Abingdonboy]

IA is still reluctant to induct it in numbers, the recent figure of Mk-2 order is a clear example of lack of confidence in an overly hyped yet under performing mbt.

I categorically deny that notion entirely. The Mk.1 has outperformed the IA's top-end tank the T-90S across the board s no dobt the improved version of such (Mk.2) is going to be more desirable than the tank they have placed orders for 1000+

The things putting off the IA are simple:

a) Price (at $8-10 MILLION each they are VERY expensive and amongst the most expensive MBTs ever made and available today as such it makes sense for the IA to stagger orders over a few years as more funds become available as out of its Cap Ex budget the IA just doesn't have $5 BILLION+ for a full 700+ Arjun order).
b) it is CONSIDERABLY heavier than any MBT the IA has ever used. The IA's entire infrastructure and logistics are built around medium weight Russian MBTs. The Arjun is a VERY different beast- it is a heavy class (60+ tons) MBT built more with a Western design ethos. It is going to take a while for the IA to get to grips with it.

The IA is used to the Russian Medium weight MBTs, adopting the heavy class Arjun represents a cataclysmic operational shift for them, one that will take a LONG time to get to terms with. They need to create and let's not forget this isn't an off the shelf product from abroad where all such operational procedures, logistical chains, spares etc are known and in place and available in an instant. This is an indigenous product that is a first of its kind in India, the IA and DRDO are still learning as they go along.

It makes sense to go for the T-90S to address the Modern MBT needs for the short term as the Arjun gets up an running in the IA.

The Arjun will end up in 700-900 units (both Mk.1 and Mk.2) within the IA and all such orders should be placed by 2018 (over 1000 Arjun chassis will be produced as the IA will also be buying a few hundred BLTs and Arty systems based on the Arjun chassis) before the IA turns its attention to the FMBT at the start of the next decade.

For a $7-10MN USD a piece tank that is a very healthy order book!

 

[Dazzler]

I categorically deny that notion entirely. The Mk.1 has outperformed the IA's top-end tank the T-90S across the board s no dobt the improved version of such (Mk.2) is going to be more desirable than the tank they have placed orders for 1000+

The things putting off the IA are simple:

a) Price (at $8-10 MILLION each they are VERY expensive and amongst the most expensive MBTs ever made and available today as such it makes sense for the IA to stagger orders over a few years as more funds become available as out of its Cap Ex budget the IA just doesn't have $5 BILLION+ for a full 700+ Arjun order).
b) it is CONSIDERABLY heavier than any MBT the IA has ever used. The IA's entire infrastructure and logistics are built around medium weight Russian MBTs. The Arjun is a VERY different beast- it is a heavy class (60+ tons) MBT built more with a Western design ethos. It is going to take a while for the IA to get to grips with it.

The IA is used to the Russian Medium weight MBTs, adopting the heavy class Arjun represents a cataclysmic operational shift for them, one that will take a LONG time to get to terms with. They need to create and let's not forget this isn't an off the shelf product from abroad where all such operational procedures, logistical chains, spares etc are known and in place and available in an instant. This is an indigenous product that is a first of its kind in India, the IA and DRDO are still learning as they go along.

It makes sense to go for the T-90S to address the Modern MBT needs for the short term as the Arjun gets up an running in the IA.

The Arjun will end up in 700-900 units (both Mk.1 and Mk.2) within the IA and all such orders should be placed by 2018 (over 1000 Arjun chassis will be produced as the IA will also be buying a few hundred BLTs and Arty systems based on the Arjun chassis) before the IA turns its attention to the FMBT at the start of the next decade.

For a $7-10MN USD a piece tank that is a very healthy order book!

in your patriotic rhetoric you forgot to mention one little aspect, the very formidable and outstanding Arjun is in the making by DRDO for almost 40 years, has no foreseeable future, has less worth to the primary user than a T-90 that itself is far from state of the art in the 21st century as it is essentially a beefed up T-72B.

You sound like DRDO is Krauss Wegmann or General Dynamics Land Systems, churning out M1Axx or Leo-2xx that are so advanced that IA having operated the "obsolete" T-90s will get used to it.

What next, US and Germany replacing their mbt fleet with Arjun?

 

[Abingdonboy]

in your patriotic rhetoric you forgot to mention one little aspect, the very formidable and outstanding Arjun is in the making by DRDO for almost 40 years, has no foreseeable future, has less worth to the primary user than a T-90 that itself is far from state of the art in the 21st century as it is essentially a beefed up T-72B.

You sound like DRDO is Krauss Wegmann or General Dynamics Land Systems, churning out M1Axx or Leo-2xx that are so advanced that IA having operated the "obsolete" T-90s will get used to it.

What next, US and Germany replacing their mbt fleet with Arjun?

How many Arjuns need to be ordered by the IA before you shut up for good about the Arjun being a "failure" hmm?

Oh by the way, thanks for not actually giving a valid criticism of my pretty extensive reasoning behind why the IA has ordered so few to date (something you use as ammo to attack the Arjun program). I can see a lot of thinking went into your post mr "think tank".

 

[Dazzler]

How many Arjuns need to be ordered by the IA before you shut up for good about the Arjun being a "failure" hmm?

Oh by the way, thanks for not actually giving a valid criticism of my pretty extensive reasoning behind why the IA has ordered so few to date (something you use as ammo to attack the Arjun program). I can see a lot of thinking went into your post mr "think tank".

calling failure a failure is my theme, whats is yours, aal iz well?

i have given very realistic and rational criticism of Arjun, the key to success is to understand your strengths and weaknesses and work to address it appropriately. IA knows this, they are going to use the damn thing, DRDO are shoving a faulty equipment in their throat, when they shout, you guys criticise them.

Mate, DRDO had no foundation for developing a complex weapon system such as a main battle tank yet the "made in india" fantasy pushed them to go for the impossible.

This is where they let themselves down, the IA down, and allowed the world to use their shortcomings. I can go on and on but rest for later.

Just one thing, you try to run before learning to walk, fall becomes your destiny. DRDO's failures are a price that IA is paying dearly. Russians sell you obsolete tank ammo at three times the original price, and you buy it, why? False pride is a bad thing you know.

 

[GORKHALI]

read my previous posts in this thread to discover how minor weaknesses end up being major in the battlefield. If Arjun was so desirable, IA would have straight away placed an adequate order, not a "trial" one. IA is still reluctant to induct it in numbers, the recent figure of Mk-2 order is a clear example of lack of confidence in an overly hyped yet under performing mbt.

Arey Chacha.....IA will straight forward end up buying 500-700 Arjun Mk2 as Mk2 is still in trial need more refinement with upgrades. Recently it An advanced laser warning countermeasure system and a mobile camouflage system have recently been tested and proven on the Arjun MBT MkII in the Mahajan Field Firing Range in Rajasthan. During recent trials, the ALWCS was integrated with the Arjun's integrated fire control system.

IA also now started showing interest in Arjun based platform for artilleries and bridges.

Tabhi bolte hai khud se kuch banyoge toh malum chalega,you can twist it as per your requirement .Till then eat this -118 Arjun Mark II Main Battle Tanks and 40 Arjun Catapult 130-mm Self-Propelled Artillery Systems by the Defence Research Development Organisation and Ordinance Factories Board has been ordered including train carriage and Arjun chassis based recovery vehicle.Now where is AL KHALID based Artillery ,Bridges etc etc.
Govt scraps Rs 6,000-cr tender for Light Utility Helicopters | Business Line

How many Arjuns need to be ordered by the IA before you shut up for good about the Arjun being a "failure" hmm?

Oh by the way, thanks for not actually giving a valid criticism of my pretty extensive reasoning behind why the IA has ordered so few to date (something you use as ammo to attack the Arjun program). I can see a lot of thinking went into your post mr "think tank".

Bro!!The problem in ordering Arjun in lot is that current Infrastructure for this is as per Medium weight tank like Train carriage,bridge layer tanks,recovery tanks all of them based on T72 derivatives and that goes around 3000.Reason for IA ordering Arjun in small batches now so that it can absorbs the new infrastructures and strategies without disturbing the current strategy revolving around T72. Also no more love with Russian maal it seems after Smerch incident.

 

[Omega007]

Hey @Abingdonboy , don't you have some better things to than wasting your time on this little prick??!!Trust me dude,it's not worth your time.We whack his @rse all the time on D.F.I.

read my previous posts in this thread to discover how minor weaknesses end up being major in the battlefield. If Arjun was so desirable, IA would have straight away placed an adequate order, not a "trial" one. IA is still reluctant to induct it in numbers, the recent figure of Mk-2 order is a clear example of lack of confidence in an overly hyped yet under performing mbt.

Who needs to read your bs anyway??We all know your reasoning has already been clouded by all the propaganda shit you guys are fed all the time.Remember the Abrams failing in Pakistan bull crap and the bashing you and your fellow received at D.F.I??So where is the need to hear whatever bs you has to say??You guys are simply incapable of objective discussion.

 

[SrNair]

calling failure a failure is my theme, whats is yours, aal iz well?

i have given very realistic and rational criticism of Arjun, the key to success is to understand your strengths and weaknesses and work to address it appropriately. IA knows this, they are going to use the damn thing, DRDO are shoving a faulty equipment in their throat, when they shout, you guys criticise them.

Mate, DRDO had no foundation for developing a complex weapon system such as a main battle tank yet the "made in india" fantasy pushed them to go for the impossible.

This is where they let themselves down, the IA down, and allowed the world to use their shortcomings. I can go on and on but rest for later.

Just one thing, you try to run before learning to walk, fall becomes your destiny. DRDO's failures are a price that IA is paying dearly. Russians sell you obsolete tank ammo at three times the original price, and you buy it, why? False pride is a bad thing you know.

Sorry I disagree with this.
Till now IA main tanks are from Russia .So IA basic tank infrastructure and maintainence is always concerned with these Russian systems.But IA have more influence from Germans Leopard tank they need a new tank that is entirely different than that of Russian logisitics.
Another important factor is that corruption .Russian systems have a notorious reputation of maintenance expense.
But IA dont have a choice I think there is no return back from Arjun forward movements in IA.

 

[IND151]

@Dazzler ,dude,you really think that you're adding something new here??Do you really believe I'm not aware of the GMS (gunner's main sight) placement issue??
Listen man,there is NO COMPOSITE armor behind the GMS,instead DRDO has placed a ~460mm thick solid block of hardened heavy metal alloy with a TE (thickness efficiency) of 1.6 - meaning a 10 cm thick plate of that material has same ballistic resistance as a 16cm RHA plate has.It's more than enough to handle all current and future FSAPDS rounds in our neighbourhood.And the army would've definitely sought modification if they thought it was such big a issue as it is made out to be.

Besides,it's a very small window at the right upper corner of the turret.Good luck hitting that place at 2000 yards.

Even I could tell that AK has a partially exposed roof from front angle and its turret sides are particularly vulnerable even from frontal ark.Even worse,AK till now doesn't sport a hardened mantlet mask!!Each and every one of these are much more glaring gaps in AK's protection compared to the GMS of Arjun;but do the Indians make a big fuss all the time??No,because these have been discussed more than once before and they no longer present anything valuable........other than stupid d!ck measuring to satisfy someone's ego.So now lets give it a rest.

And yeah,110cm was plain exaggeration on Kunal's part,I told him that myself over there.But 950mm is almost correct,even Dejawolf and militarysta now somewhat agree with that figure after Kunal posted his measured pictures he took during Defexpo 14.

Thanks for Info.

 

[Omega007]

Thanks for Info.

You are welcome brother.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Hey @Abingdonboy , don't you have some better things to than wasting your time on this little prick??!!Trust me dude,it's not worth your time.We whack his @rse all the time on D.F.I.



Who needs to read your bs anyway??We all know your reasoning has already been clouded by all the propaganda shit you guys are fed all the time.Remember the Abrams failing in Pakistan bull crap and the bashing you and your fellow received at D.F.I??So where is the need to hear whatever bs you has to say??You guys are simply incapable of objective discussion.

*** : dipshits failures inc

 

[AMCA]

Come on Guys, why waste time on those who cannot even manufacture a decent Cycle? I have always been a strong critic of Arjun Myself but I had reasons in being so and the recent improvements have turned me to be a fan of Mk2 version. Its sure one of the meanest tanks in Asia and can dry the bloody hell out from the Enemy's @&& on any given day.