Arabic Coffee shop

[-SINAN-]

Turkish PISS-TV addict.

Who is this Turkish PISS-TV addict that i don't know ?
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Hasani what is the Arabs view about our father "Mustafa Kemal Atatürk"

Today, from @Kaan i learned about his stance about Palestine.

Here is his speech.

That's bad too see that Arabs couldn't affect European politics and believed in so-called "independence" word, meanwhile they made their countries captive of European imperialism.

No one can know the displeasure and the chaos between Arabs, as we know. We kept away from them for a while. But now, we believe in ourselves and won't let Jewish and Christians to control the holy places of Islam, because we know our strength. Therefore, we want to say that we won't allow there to be the playground of the European Imperialism. We have been accused of being atheist and incurious on Islam.
But despite these accusations, we're ready to shed our bloods to fulfill Prophet's last request (desire), I mean, the holy places to stay under Muslim Control.

As we can express that we won't allow Foreigns to capture the places where our ancestors, under Salahaddin's command, fought against Christians; we're strong by Allah's grace. We don't have doubt about that all Islam world will defend together, when Europe will try to capture these holy places.

This speech has been made in 1937, he was already ill. In 1938 he passed away.

I wonder if he could unite Arabs, against British's plans of founding Israel ?

 

[Hakan]

Who is this Turkish PISS-TV addict that i don't know ?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hasani what is the Arabs view about our father "Mustafa Kemal Atatürk"

Today, from @Kaan i learned about his stance about Palestine.

Here is his speech.

That's bad too see that Arabs couldn't affect European politics and believed in so-called "independence" word, meanwhile they made their countries captive of European imperialism.

No one can know the displeasure and the chaos between Arabs, as we know. We kept away from them for a while. But now, we believe in ourselves and won't let Jewish and Christians to control the holy places of Islam, because we know our strength. Therefore, we want to say that we won't allow there to be the playground of the European Imperialism. We have been accused of being atheist and incurious on Islam.
But despite these accusations, we're ready to shed our bloods to fulfill Prophet's last request (desire), I mean, the holy places to stay under Muslim Control.

As we can express that we won't allow Foreigns to capture the places where our ancestors, under Salahaddin's command, fought against Christians; we're strong by Allah's grace. We don't have doubt about that all Islam world will defend together, when Europe will try to capture these holy places.

This speech has been made in 1937, he was already ill. In 1938 he passed away.

I wonder if he could unite Arabs, against British's plans of founding Israel ?

My stance is that everyone should live together in peace. I said it in another thread. Either way that speech was made along time ago and today the realities are different from when ataturk made that speech. IMO the speech is an important historical article.

@Sinan I am assuming you have the same stance as ataturk or that your stance is based on his beliefs but modified to fit todays reality.

 

[al-Hasani]

The Hasbara Buster clown (don't want to tag him as I don't want to see him on this section of PDF) and serial troll that can't keep his nonsense to himself in whenever thread that he participates in.

I don't know about that to be honest with you. Most Arabs (of course I can't speak for 22 countries and close to 450 million people) are taught their own ancient and native civilizations in the ME (pre-Islamic ties) and then Islamic history. More recent history of ME countries are not taught extensively from my experience. It's a bit like in Europe where only the major events are taught such as the WW1, WW2, Cold War etc.

It's funny how big the focus is on Palestine in the Arab and Muslim world when we Arabs have so much land from Morocco near the Atlantic Ocean, to Oman near the Arabian Sea and from Syria to Comoros on the Southern Hemisphere and the Jews only have Israel.

Well, it's obviously only due to Al-Aqsa, Al-Quds and the enemy being Jew. Who talks about the Ahwazi Arabs in Iran for instance? Not many. Most Arabs probably don't even know that they exist to begin with.

I consider only that part of the Arab world being occupied by "foreigners" as somewhat of an achievement considering the vast area that is the Arab world and the fact that so many foreign powers, also in recent times, have been interested in those rich lands.

On the other hand something like this could have happened for any Arab people or Muslim/Non-Western people but it's the bad luck of the Palestinians that it happened to them.

Regarding the uniting thing? I am not sure about that. That age was a age of nationalism, depression (Wall Street Crash in 1929), still colonial forces in many Muslim states if not most etc.

Also I don't think that any Muslim country back then (most were in a very weak state) could prevent the main world power at that time (British Empire) and the very rich and influential Zionism movement from buying up land and moving into Palestine.

There were simply too many big agendas around.

Anyway honestly speaking then I am sick and tired of this conflict and I am starting to believe that Israelis and Palestinians should deal with this once and for all or keep killing themselves. Soon most people will not really care if they keep going on for another 67 years. Many Arabs out there are tired of the publicity this conflict gets when they themselves face difficulties (Iraq, Yemen, Libya) and many also dislike the political parties of both and their overall conduct. Palestinians also get preferential treatment anywhere in the Arab world and they have not always payed that back in the best way to be honest with you! Just ask the Jordanians, Iraqis, Kuwaitis, Egyptians, Lebanese etc. I almost can't blame them.

 

[-SINAN-]

My stance is that everyone should live together in peace. I said it in another thread. Either way that speech was made along time ago and today the realities are different from when ataturk made that speech. IMO the speech is an important historical article.

@Sinan I am assuming you have the same stance as ataturk or that your stance is based on his beliefs but modified to fit todays reality.

I don't know mate....i say we should stay out of Arab affairs.....but my heart is being crushed under these Israeli brutality.....

I believe, we should in according to Turkey's interests but.......

 

[al-Hasani]

I don't know mate....i say we should stay out of Arab affairs.....but my heart is being crushed under these Israeli brutality.....

I believe, we should in according to Turkey's interests but.......

Mate, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict was never only about an so-called "Arab affair". This is why the entire world is obsessed about it. Just look at this forum. I had a discussion with several users on PDF a few hours ago who claimed that the reason why Palestinian deaths are more "worthy" and get more publicity out there is because they happen to be Arabs while I said that it is only because of Palestinians living in Palestine which is home to Al-Quds (Jerusalem) and Al-Aqsa. Respectively the third most holy city in Islam and third most holy mosque. So the conflict has a religious dimension first of all aside from being a conflict between David and Goliath and against injustice (depending on your view-point) and also because Jerusalem is so holy to the 3 Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam). it has a big historical significance.

I don't think that the situation would have been different had Palestine been occupied by Muslim Afghans, Kazakhs, Papuans, Germans, Poles etc. Muslims would still care.

Lastly why can I safely make such claim? Well because the world, including the Muslim world, is largely silent when other Arabs are killed either by non-Muslims, their "own" or foreigners. Be it in Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Libya etc.

If you asked a regular Syrian if the world cared about his country or his people he would laugh at you and maybe hit you if he was emotional.

 

[Hakan]

I don't know mate....i say we should stay out of Arab affairs.....but my heart is being crushed under these Israeli brutality.....

I believe, we should in according to Turkey's interests but.......

Accordng to ataturk it isn't arab affairs rather it is an islamic issue. I saw @al-Hasani arguing the same thing today also he said what do you expect arab countries to do? He is right what can they do.

Right now what is in turkey's interest is to develop itself technologically, economically, and militarily. We don't need any obstructions that are going to set us back. Any type of military conflict with any group will set us back because it will cause instability. This may take a while but it is for the good of turkey and the islamic world in general for us to develope before we play tough guy.

IMO turkey should concentrate on the karabagh issue so that way we have full access to azerbaijan but at the same time we can still have a humanitarian policy towards the holy land issue, after all that is the only realistic thing that can be done along with "talk".

 

[-SINAN-]

Accordng to ataturk it isn't arab affairs rather it is an islamic issue. I saw @al-Hasani arguing the same thing today also he said what do you expect arab countries to do? He is right what can they do.

Right now what is in turkey's interest is to develop itself technologically, economically, and militarily. We don't need any obstructions that are going to set us back. Any type of military conflict with any group will set us back because it will cause instability. This may take a while but it is for the good of turkey and the islamic world in general for us to develope before we play tough guy.

IMO turkey should concentrate on the karabagh issue so that way we have full access to azerbaijan but at the same time we can still have a humanitarian policy towards the holy land issue, after all that is the only realistic thing that can be done along with "talk".

This issues are like a joke IMO.... Look at Syria...after that chemical gas attack. Russia and US sat down the table and decided the fate of Syria...Two christian countries from outside of the ME, decided the fate of a Muslim, ME country... that along shows how toothless the Islamic World has become.

Anyways.... i think, you are correct about Karabagh issue... we should find a solution and link ourselves with the Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan and Kazakhistan, only then we can became a serious power....

 

[al-Hasani]

Accordng to ataturk it isn't arab affairs rather it is an islamic issue. I saw @al-Hasani arguing the same thing today also he said what do you expect arab countries to do? He is right what can they do.

Right now what is in turkey's interest is to develop itself technologically, economically, and militarily. We don't need any obstructions that are going to set us back. Any type of military conflict with any group will set us back because it will cause instability. This may take a while but it is for the good of turkey and the islamic world in general for us to develope before we play tough guy.

IMO turkey should concentrate on the karabagh issue so that way we have full access to azerbaijan but at the same time we can still have a humanitarian policy towards the holy land issue, after all that is the only realistic thing that can be done along with "talk".

It's not only about what the Arab world (that has it's own problems to look after) can do but what the entire Muslim can do? Seriously what can any single Muslim country do against a nuclear state, one of the biggest military powers out there, a country that is ready to sacrifice everything just to keep alive (read about the Samson doctrine), has the bagging of the entire Western world (let's not forget Holocaust and the guilt involved in that etc. - look at Germanys' political actions vis a vis Israel), has one of the strongest lobbies out there etc. We all know that Muslim countries will not be allowed to all attack Israel. This is not a computer game after all.

Every country should first of all worry about themselves and then their allies and friends. This is not a computer game. We all (here on PDF) often try to act like the biggest nationalists and everything being rosy but the truth is that countries only care about their own interests.

Let's just face it. The Muslim world is overall in a pathetic state. So far behind the West on all fronts that it's not even funny. This has been going on for centuries.

Until changes does not occur from within nothing big will happen.

 

[Hakan]

It's not only about what the Arab world (that has it's own problems to look after) can do but what the entire Muslim can do? Seriously what can any single Muslim country do against a nuclear state, one of the biggest military powers out there, a country that is ready to sacrifice everything just to keep alive (read about the Samson doctrine), has the bagging of the entire Western world (let's not forget Holocaust and the guilt involved in that etc. - look at Germanys' political actions vis a vis Israel), has one of the strongest lobbies out there etc. We all know that Muslim countries will not be allowed to all attack Israel. This is not a computer game after all.

Every country should first of all worry about themselves and then their allies and friends. This is not a computer game. We all (here on PDF) often try to act like the biggest nationalists and everything being rosy but the truth is that countries only care about their own interests.

Let's just face it. The Muslim world is overall in a pathetic state. So far behind the West on all fronts that it's not even funny. This has been going on for centuries.

Yeah all we can do is develop ourselves individually and perhaps cooperate in this process then eventually we will realize that the best thing to do is cooperate with each other on a large scale.

I agree people on PDF se the world as a game. If we went by PDF opinions Turkey would have been at war with Russia, isis, assad, and PYD at the same time maybe israel too. LOL.

 

[al-Hasani]

@Sinan @Kaan

If you are interested in reading an essay by me (yes, you got that right) about the current state of the Muslim world or just our part of the world (Muslim or not it does not change anything) and the Palestine-Israeli conflict then you are welcome to read my two posts below.

Nah, you know that Palestine is front-page news everywhere in the Arab and Muslim world whenever anything big happens. Even the world in general. If there is 1 single conflict that has got more publicity, that has had a bigger influence on the Arab psyche etc. than any other than it is undoubtedly the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. After all this conflict has been going on for 67 years. 2-3 Arab generations have grown up with this conflict. It's been thrown at their heads whenever they went. Whether in schools, at home, in the media etc. Leaders have used this conflict all the time for good and bad. More often bad thus the failures. Palestinians themselves also play a role in this. I mean the political elite. Not the ordinary people of course.

Look, if I was a Palestinian I would be just like you if not even worse. In fact I might have been dead now. I perfectly understand the pain and suffering and injustice as our part of the world has suffered from this in the past few centuries. We all know what it is. Maybe not the current generation but our ancestors knew it. This goes for all Muslims out there and people in general.

My point is that there comes a point in people's life's where all those conflicts, divisions etc. make you fed up. I am at this point now. I know that many are too. It's not because we don't care it's just because we are close to losing all hope. About ever seeing something as simple as a peaceful ME that we all deserve and that this ancient and glorious part of the world deserves. Not the retarded one that we see now.
That's all. Don't take my post as me being against Palestine or whatever as some trolls probably will to troll me.

@Aeronaut

Read this carefully please.

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You know when such organizations should be put in place de facto and not just de jure (nice cosy coffee shops that they are today)?

When the Muslim world goes through what Europe/the West did go through after WW1 and WW2 were 80 million perished. After those devastating wars (the most devastating to this day in world history) and after centuries of infighting in Europe the Europeans decided to cooperate rather than to fight each other. So they started mutual economic, military, political etc. organizations. They basically needed to hit rock bottom before they realized that they were on a wrong path and before they could change for real instead of just talking like the Muslim world is doing today. This way all those political, social etc. changes occurred.

Tell me when has this happened in the Muslim world? The question is never and that's why we see all those social, political etc. problems.

Drastic changes are needed.

How can anyone take all those Muslim organizations (current ones) seriously when the Muslim world never made those necessary steps I allude to?

It's like attempting to built a house without the fundament and when it crashes you are left wondering; "How did that happen when I did everything right."? You did everything wrong but never was aware of this. Or you were but just decided to ignore it which is even worse.

Basically that's the current state of the Muslim world. A new fundament needs to be built. A strong and powerful one. Unless that does not happen then nothing will change. Trying to built over a already broken fundament TIME and TIME again is something only idiots do. You see most of us Muslims of today are incompetent idiots. That's the reality.

My quick two cents.

I am not sure if you will agree or not but probably as most honest people can see what is wrong with our part of the world by large. I know that the GCC and Turkey are doing great compared to most Muslim and non-Western countries but I am speaking about overall here and both still have problems.

 

[Hakan]

This issues are like a joke IMO.... Look at Syria...after that chemical gas attack. Russia and US sat down the table and decided the fate of Syria...Two christian countries from outside of the ME, decided the fate of a Muslim, ME country... that along shows how toothless the Islamic World has become.

Anyways.... i think, you are correct about Karabagh issue... we should find a solution and link ourselves with the Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan and Kazakhistan, only then we can became a serious power....

Central asia has all the resources and thats where we need to spend our energy.

 

[al-Hasani]

Central asia has all the resources and thats where we need to spend our energy.

Resources are not always a blessing and don't forget that this area is currently (at least) the playground of the Russians while the Chinese themselves are increasingly more interested in that region due to the resources too. Those two are 2 of the 3 main powers currently. The other being USA obviously. A hard coconut to destroy. Also the problem might be the lack of natural borders between Turkey and Kazakhstan for instance. I mean there is several 1000's km of distance between both of you. But of course those are your internal issues. Just my two cents as an observer.

Also I don't think that any of the main powers will allow any single Turkic state (a state not sticking together naturally in terms of borders) just like they will never allow 1 Arab state as this will threaten their monopoly. Especially 1 Arab state is something that would be very unpleasant for them due to all the resources and geography and the fact that this land is connected directly from the West to East and North and South.

The goal should be to outcompete the West or at least compete with the West on areas such as science and technology. This way the societies will evolve and the Muslim world will become more independent and strong. It's a very long and hard process. Turkey has already shown some of the way and other Muslim countries out there are doing the same. All in different ways and tempos though.

 

[Hakan]

Resources are not always a blessing and don't forget that this area is currently (at least) the playground of the Russians while the Chinese themselves are increasingly more interested in that region due to the resources too. Also the problem might be the lack of natural borders between Turkey and Kazakhstan for instance. I mean there is several 1000's km of distance between both of you. But of course those are your internal issues. Just my two cents as an observer.

Also I don't think that any of the main powers will allow any single Turkic state (a state not sticking together naturally in terms of borders) just like they will never allow 1 Arab state as this will threaten their monopoly. Especially 1 Arab state is something that would be very unpleasant for them due to all the resources and geography and the fact that this land is connected directly from the West to East and North and South.

The goal should be to outcompete the West or at least compete with the West on areas such as science and technology. This way the societies will evolve and the Muslim world will become more independent and strong. It's a very long and hard process. Turkey has already shown some of the way and other Muslim countries out there are doing the same. All in different ways and tempos though.

I don't think we can have any political union or anything but if we can get a trans caspian pipeline built and have it run from central asia through turkey to europe then we can get some more influence in europe and we can get some influence against russia. But russia controls central asia for now so they won't like that idea.

Geographically we don't have any connection to the region so we are at a disadvantage. Iran is in the way and so is the caspian sea. The max we can get with central asia is free trade agreements, more military cooperation and more cooperation in the international arena but then again they will side with russia on important issues.

I agree with you about concentrating on tech. Realistically we have to go it alone.

 

[al-Hasani]

A military forum is for military gear, guns and bullets, not for beaches, seagulls and past civilisation vestiges...

I don't want to spam that other thread.

Mate, all sections have such threads (many more as regular Arab users on PDF can be counted on 2 hands) and there are whole sections of the forum dedicated for non-military talk. This is something the moderators have decided and I see no problem with that thread being there. Nobody forces people to look so I see no problem. Rather the contrary it has opened the eyes to many foreigners (just look at all the comments in that thread from non-Arabs) here and your country (Algeria) has also been represented in that thread in a good way.

I don't really know why you started that discussion in that thread?

 

[al-Hasani]

I don't think we can have any political union or anything but if we can get a trans caspian pipeline built and have it run from central asia through turkey to europe then we can get some more influence in europe and we can get some influence against russia. But russia controls central asia for now so they won't like that idea.

Geographically we don't have any connection to the region so we are at a disadvantage. Iran is in the way and so is the caspian sea. The max we can get with central asia is free trade agreements, more military cooperation and more cooperation in the international arena but then again they will side with russia on important issues.

I agree with you about concentrating on tech. Realistically we have to go it alone.

Mate, I was talking about 1 country. I mean 1 Turkic country like 1 Arab country. I don't see why a political union is impossible? What stops you? If the Arab League can be formed (a region where US, Russia have had big influence in and earlier UK and France) then surely you can do such a thing too now in the year 2014?!

Turkey has a really strategic geographic position which is a big plus. It's even more important than natural resources IMO.

I think that we will see more cooperation in the ME. My wish is to see something like EU one day in the ME. Or at least just more cooperation like in Europe.