AQ Khan: North Korea paid bribes to Generals for nuclear know-how

[Irfan Baloch]

What is different is that PA is new to being criticized since it has taken one hit after another recently. It can, and will, improve its performance, and do a better job at handling criticism, and it will do just fine then.

Amen to that, it got a bigger brother to look up to for guidance,

 

[VCheng]

Amen to that, it got a bigger brother to look up to for guidance,

The Pakistan Army, just like Pakistan, has only three friends: ME, MYSELF, and I. There are no near or far relatives who will help sincerely.

And if a helping hand is needed, there is one at the end of each arm.

 

[SQ8]

The man SOLD NATIONAL SECRETS (in cohesion with other military and civillian players).. for a PROFIT to his OWN Organization.
What possible definition of a traitor is there?

The BB Government had authorized the purchase of the Nodong before the Sharif's via Cash payment. Not BARTER.
AQ Khan SOLD the plans for the P-1 to NK during Sharif's tenure.
What else would anyone want to know.

There was'nt just the so called "islami" brotherhood involved when the negotiations with Libya and Iran took place.

 

[VCheng]

The man SOLD NATIONAL SECRETS (in cohesion with other military and civillian players).. for a PROFIT to his OWN Organization.
What possible definition of a traitor is there?

The BB Government had authorized the purchase of the Nodong before the Sharif's via Cash payment. Not BARTER.
AQ Khan SOLD the plans for the P-1 to NK during Sharif's tenure.
What else would anyone want to know.

There was'nt just the so called "islami" brotherhood involved when the negotiations with Libya and Iran took place.

After all, there is no honor among thieves.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The Pakistan Army, just like Pakistan, has only three friends: ME, MYSELF, and I. There are no near or far relatives who will help sincerely.

And if a helping hand is needed, there is one at the end of each arm.

then why cry a river for lost image? Pakistan Army's backbone is its own people
and if some friends think that they can show a better way to conduct itself then they are welcome hence the mention of big brother.
we dont live in caves no more, got to get used to the reality of the world.

you originally commented that Pak Army has no credibility left among its people, I challenged you on that one now we are talking in circles..
before people start getting bored with this convo and reporting it for being off topic I must clarify why I felt the need to respond to you.
The very thread that is based on that comic letter and the laughable attempt of implicating the two generals in the bribery while alleging their own agency in colluding with CIA in killing of North Korean woman who was a wife of some Korean general is so stupid that this thread should be moved to the funny section of this forum.

If there is any danger of Pakistan army getting a bad rep on the bases of this letter then I request you not to worry much unless if you find yourself deeply affected then all I can do is pray for you.

Maybe that Korean general, ISI chief and Gen Karamat should appear in Gerry Springer show and clear this whole story up?

 

[Kazhugu]

^^^^^
Mr Shafi is biased and in this case, not to be taken seriously, but he has the absolute right to express his garbage.

Whenever someone says Truth that hurts they are biased and not to be taken seriously.

Is this the counter-argument ? Very enlightening indeed.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Whenever someone says Truth that hurts they are biased and not to be taken seriously.

Is this the counter-argument ? Very enlightening indeed.

Where exactly has Kamran Shafi offered new evidence in support of the claims made in the alleged letter?

As for the rest, the counter arguments are posted throughout this thread, please read through them.

 

[Kazhugu]

Where exactly has Kamran Shafi offered new evidence in support of the claims made in the alleged letter?

As for the rest, the counter arguments are posted throughout this thread, please read through them.

Indeed, he simply could not have proliferated without the tin-hats knowing; I mean for God’s sake, C-130s take off in the middle of the night from Chaklala airbase and no one knows? Duh?

Remember also that AQ was the most well-protected, well-watched, well-spied-on person in the Land of the Pure. And they didn’t know he was flying off to North Korea, or was seeing off his precious cargo?

That day also Radars not working like on May 2 when a Goddamn C-130 took off from what was possibly Pakistan's most guarded airbase ? What more evidence you need to know that this was NOT an one man operation as it was made out to be.

 

[moha199]

he cant be a traaitor the generals but a few black sheep not all generals or all army is responsable for doing such a thing to such a patriot of pakistan and here people call themselves pakistani and saying he is like that?

We have seen this traitor and you can watch clearly in this video that he is a self centered man who wanted to be worshiped like GOD in Pakistan, who wanted to take all the credit of nuclear weapon program but we have 1000s others who did way more then he could ever done. Question was asked in this video to him that what do you regret in your life and his reply was to help this nation!!!! WTF moron has millions of dollars and he claim that he didn't have money? he was house arrested in his 7 corro house and he claimed that he didn't have money to spend? WTF who is he fooling? That shows a character of a Person when he/she is in pressure or against odds, Whenever he came in pressure he threaten to leak Pakistani secrets and he did in 2006! when he handed a letter full of Pakistani secrets to his daughter dona in UK to hand in to NY TIMES REPORTER. THIS IS WHY HE IS CALLED CHARACTERLESS PERSON! Emotions a side and think as Pakistani and looking over proofs you will also say why did you say this AQ KHAN? he was everyones hero until we knew truth about him and now that we know that we have many heros who has contributed to Pak program way much why would i give AQ their credit? i will be fair to others.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

That day also Radars not working like on May 2 when a Goddamn C-130 took off from what was possibly Pakistan's most guarded airbase ? What more evidence you need to know that this was NOT an one man operation as it was made out to be.

Next time try your arguments without the expletives and cheap shots about irrelevant events. Enough have been said about the reason for the undetected 2nd May-11 raid but as usual it has gone over the deaf ears and blind eyes.

I can pose the similar question regarding the surveillance capability of Indian Navy that failed to spot few boats sailing from an enemy territory and managing to evade all billion dollar Naval assets, but really don’t want to go off topic but will like to say that a counter argument can also be made without poking jibes. But if the sole reason for creating your account with under 30 posts is to test the threshold of patience of the admin & then fade away then do as you please but don’t expect any favours then.

What you are quoting from Mr Shaffi’s article sadly cant be classed as a proof. He is making an assumption based on an event which may or may not have happened, and leaves the reader to decide for himself to fill in time and characters like a child’s activity book. In the spirit of freedom of speech the writer gets the chance to speak his heart out against the men in uniform without going into detail about his own past and the reasons for his disdain.

Looks like you found it easier to copy paste an opinion in the same page rather than allowing your self some more time read through. So I will take my chance

Firstly how Dr Qadir was able to pull it off on his own without the army top brass knowing

Known characters of the international nuclear ring
========================================
Muhammad Farooq: former KRL manager & close associate of Dr Qadir. Dismissed and currently under arrest.
Buhay Sayed Abu Tahir: A Sri-Lankan a middleman working between Dubai & Malaysia. Currently in Malaysian prison.
Asher Karni: An Israeli businessman currently in US custody. He is believed to have sold secrets to KRL.

There are many more people apart from above that include shady businessmen, smugglers, freelancers and opportunist scientists. The ruthlessness of Dr Qadir’s operations can be gauged from the fact that his Dubai computer company front office also employed Indian nationals.

Whether Dr Qadir knowingly allowed that is not clear but what is clear is that if Pakistani state was the part of Dr Qadir’s nuclear proliferation then it would never have allowed a possibility of Pakistani nuclear secrets falling in Indian hands. unless if you also want to blame ISI in colluding with Indians to transfer this technology Indians then thats a different matter and I wont blame you, because the letter already accuses ISI of sabotaging the Pakistani nuclear program and apparently working with CIA to assassinate North Korean general.

Yes he ddnt do it alone. He had a team of people who helped him in establishing this network. Some are under arrest in Pakistan and some are in America etc. the Military top brass was kept out of the loop. He was only answerable to the president (hence he blagged his way arround) and had the logistics, procurement, management and security under himself, once that changed during the Nawaz Sherif government and Nuclear command authority was established, only then the things started to unravel and Pakistan started to confirm what Amercians suspected. Yes military transport was being used but the components and the destinations were strictly on need to know bases and although the log was made for one place there were unscheduled stops that eventually prompting suspicions. And what good that would have done anyway? unless if the person on watch was a qualified engineer etc how he would have managed to distinguish between a nuclear related component and normal electric transformer etc? (specially when the package didnt have any marking ?)

There are two independent nuclear research institutions that developed their own program and achieved the goal almost simultaneously. One is known as PAEC under the supervision on Summer Mubarak (bet not many people even know him) and KRL headed by AQ Khan.
Yet only KRL came under the sanctions from time to time even before this story went public. The choice of his customers couldn’t have been worse, specially Iran which is not just on the top hate list of America but also Saudi Arabia. Had Pakistan had the policy of proliferation its army (that has close times with both countries) would have sold this know how to the Saudis that are far more generous and forthcoming in dealing with Pakistani governments and its army. But that never was the case because the intent was never there. Allowing this export to Iran would have been a suicide for Pakistani state. Incidentally it were the old discarded P1 designs (from KRL) that were discovered in Iran after the nuclear inspection.

“The rhetoric of how AQ could have done it alone and how its possible that Army didn’t know” makes an impressive speech opener but its been few years now and that’s all it is, a rhetoric and this beautiful latter gracing this thread.

Do read this post and I hope you get few more answers on how this all was possible.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-mi...n-proliferation-musharraf-14.html#post1282619

Hope you enjoy your stay in the forum.

 

[VCheng]

I have the thread up till now with interest. I shall, for now, hold my tongue, and just follow the debate.

 

[moha199]

Customers of Khan’s Network
==============================

Iran 2003 nuclear inspection
Iranians succumbed to international pressure and allowed tougher IAEA inspection upon which their enrichment facilities were found to be based on URENCO designs used in the 80s Pakistani centrifuge models of Pak-1 that KRL had designed. The sale was made as early as 1989 and upon investigation Iranian revelations were passed to Pakistani authorities who discovered that during late 80s unauthorised sales to Iran were made that led to the arrests of 2 senior KRL staff members including Muhammad Farooq (KRL manager) who were part of the Pakistani based nuclear proliferation network. This undercover sale was most embarrassing which had severe
Implications for Pakistan KSA’s past and recent multibillion dollar arms acquisitions are Iran specific it was unimaginable for Pakistan Army especially Saudi Wahabi influenced ISI to arm the arch enemy of the kingdom with the nuclear technology.

Libya sale
During the same year once Libya abandoned its nuclear ambition and opened up its facilities, the inspections once again led to Pakistani designed centrifuges that were confiscated. Libyans pointed towards various black market suppliers including Pakistanis and Interpol later on arrested 3 Swiss nuclear scientists that were found to be close associates of Dr Qadir Khan.

North Korea & Iraq
The North Korean sale is assumed to be around 1997. The US intelligence during 2002 pointed out about the Korean Uranium enrichment program. By that time suspicions about AQ Khan’s network were very strong and upon US pressure Pakistan undertook its own investigation and revealed that Dr AQ Khan admitted in supplying nuclear secrets to North Korea. There was also suggestion that AQ Khan’s network also approached Iraqi regime during 90s offering nuclear technology but Iraq backed away suspecting a sting operation. This allegation is dismissed by Pakistani government.

Taliban & Al-Qaeda
Al Qaeda has never made it nuclear admissions any secret. Two Pakistani nuclear scientists Sultan Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood and Chaudiri Abdul Majeed, founded Ummah Tameer-e-Nau, Reconstruction of the Muslim Ummah, or UTN, as a front organisation and visited Afghanistan before the American invasion and met Osama bin laden. Upon their subsequent arrests in Pakistan they maintained that they were visiting Afghanistan for food, water & other humanitarian works for Afghanistan. But it’s a known fact that for Al Qaeda & Taliban, the only bases of existence is fear, intimidation & misery for all unfortunate enough to be around them. It is highly likely that they were there to help Al Qaeda in making a radio active or dirty bomb. They were arrested in 2001 along with a third unnamed scientist. All of them were close associated of Dr Abdul Qadir Khan

Known characters of the international nuclear ring
========================================
Muhammad Farooq: former KRL manager & close associate of Dr Qadir. Dismissed and currently under arrest.
Buhay Sayed Abu Tahir: A Sri-Lankan a middleman working between Dubai & Malaysia. Currently in Malaysian prison.
Asher Karni: An Israeli businessman currently in US custody. He is believed to have sold secrets to KRL.

There are many more people apart from above that include shady businessmen, smugglers, freelancers and opportunist scientists. The ruthlessness of Dr Qadir’s operations can be gauged from the fact that his Dubai computer company front office also employed Indian nationals. Whether Dr Qadir knowingly allowed that is not clear but what is clear is that if Pakistani state was the part of Dr Qadir’s nuclear proliferation then it would never have allowed a possibility of Pakistani nuclear secrets falling in Indian hands.

The Beginning of the End
======================
Once Dr Qadir had an independent nuclear program organisation KRL under his sole authority, he was only answerable to the president and had the security, finance and operations under himself alone. As said by Lord Acton "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

Sadly it seems to be true with Dr AQ Khan, one might not doubt his initial motivation in helping the country to achieve the nuclear status but after getting un-audited access to national resources, unquestioned operations and lack of control over time resulted in venturing into not so noble territory of personal greed. It might have been a defiance of the west and rebellion towards the secrecy & exclusiveness of nuclear know how. It might have been a religious motivation to equip Muslim nations with nuclear power in case of Libya, Iran and Iraq and purely financial in case of North Korea.

The reason for offering nuclear technology to above countries can be a combination of all 3 or 2 at a time but fact remains that it compromised the position of Pakistan very severely and almost brought Pakistani installations in the cross hairs of Israel and crippling sanctions and economic boycott by the rest of the world.

The command structure
=================
It was almost non existent from the 70s from ZA Bhutto to Gulam Ishaq Khan who for the first time brought Army chief in the loop. Otherwise it was president directly communicating with Dr Qadir Khan. It further extended to prime minister to DGCD (director general combat development) to whom Dr Qadir was to report. There was no one else in the army in this chain and even the DGMO who is supposed to deal with all sensitive military planning and operational issues was kept out of the loop. General Musharraf for the first time presented the idea of NCA (nuclear command authority) & government based secretariat overseeing the operational, security & financial issues of our nuclear program during Nawaz premiership. This was the time when Pakistan also had conducted its nuclear tests and a better coordination between KRL and PAEC was needed but the proposal only came into practice after Pakistan Army overtook power from Nawaz government.

NCA is the top of the structure with president, prime minister, key federal ministers, military chiefs and senior scientists. It is responsible for development & employment of strategic assets planning.

A Secretariat called SPD (strategic plans division) under DG from army implements the NCA planning & overseeing the strategic assets. This secretariat also oversees the financial, operational and security matters relating to our scientific organisations.
All 3 armed forces made their own strategic commands that actually handled the strategic assets in the field while the control was still held centrally with NCA.

The formation of this strategic structure is what led to the exposure of hidden activities of Dr Qadir & his close associates that were not sanctioned by the past or present Pakistani governments.

Lt. Gen. Khalid Kidwai, commander of Pakistan's Strategic Planning and Development Cell, described Khan as the mastermind of an elaborate and wholly unauthorized smuggling network involving chartered cargo flights, clandestine overseas meetings and a Malaysian factory that reconditioned centrifuge parts discarded from Pakistan's nuclear program for sale to foreign clients.

Confession & the blame game
===========================
It was a national disgrace and hard time for any Pakistani when Dr Abdul Qadir read a confession in front of the nation on February 2004. Like millions of Pakistanis I believed that he scarified himself for Pakistan in the face of mounting international pressure and took the whole blame. This indeed was an act true to his title of national hero. He was immediately given the presidential pardon and all foreign requests for his debriefings were refused. This was the right move and least Musharraf’s and present government could do.

Dr Qadir’s subsequent behaviour after the national apology was anything but selfless heroism

Dr Qadir claims that the confession was forced on him. So does it mean that he was not willing to sacrifice himself in the face of mounting international pressure on Pakistan? Where according to USA, Pakistan was exposed in nuclear proliferation to worse regimes in the world. Was his personal pride and ego more precious than what dire consequences awaited Pakistan? Hardly a selfless sacrifice.

If he had no intention of confessing and taking the blame then what alternative did he have in mind? Did he want Pakistan to bluff like Sadam Hussein? What if USA had called the bluff and did what it has done to Afghanistan & Iraq? I don’t think only economic sanctions would have satisfied America after such a large scale of proliferation. Again personal pride above national interests was at play.

If Dr Qadir was unhappy with the way he was singled out & wanted others to share the blame too again how did he think that would have saved Pakistan? Or was that never in his mind or consideration?

His subsequent statements are also self contradictory. On one hand he says he sacrificed himself by taking the blame and on the other hand he says his confession was forced upon him. If he was forced then why the claim of sacrifice? Or was he protesting a forced sacrifice like a lamb? Where he had no say? This again brings back the validity of the heroic claim.

The fact remains that his confession, forced or willing, true or untrue put the heat off Pakistan and its nuclear program. It resulted in the arrests of the scientists that were pro-Taliban & Al Qaeda. This is clearly an aspect which no government or security organisation could have ever dared to venture.

He still has the chance to take the credit for saving Pakistan today because with the passage of time, today Pakistan is able to offer its nuclear fuel processing services. If there had been no confession and the ambiguity about the Pakistani nuclear proliferation existed today then any such offer was unthinkable. A brutally embargoed and boycotted country without the oil wealth like Libya or Iran, our country would have crumbled years ago.

Threats, denials & revenge
======================
Why AQ Khan threatens to blow the lid off Pakistani secrets? And that too, to foreign media. Western media has a special disdain and cynical attitude towards Pakistan where it never spares any moment to malign its army , secret service and people. Apparently the noble hero managed to pass his secrets to his daughter abroad. It is these documents that are believed to have been smuggled out of the country by Dina, Khan's older daughter, is also thought to hold the key to some of Khan's extremely lucrative real estate investments in the UK that were funded by his nuclear sales. Khan had agreed to surrender the documents in return for a blanket pardon, but failed to do so. The government has been trying to retrieve the documents since Dr Khan was offered a presidential pardon last week but they are yet to receive them.


Doctor Abdul Qadir claims that army was aware of his proliferation operations. He claims that General Aslam Baig was aware and actually authorised the sale of nuclear secrets to Iran. General Baig denies this claim. If there was even a remote possibility of truth then Musharraf would have happily put the blame on previous governments and army chiefs but that didn’t happen. Doctor Qadir’s claim can be easily dismissed because both Saudi and USA are Pakistan’s main financial & military suppliers. Selling nuclear know how to their arch enemy in the region would have been a suicide. Dr Qadir also blamed Gen Karamat too who also denies doctor’s claim.

I cant shake off a scary thought that Doctor Abdul Qadir is on revenge course against the Pakistani state. He seems to be begging USA to punish Pakistan for its nuclear program and use one of its future tech weapons to neutralise whatever strategic assets we have. If he continues with his current antics then USA might put any such plans in action.

While Pakistan will be licking its wounds, Dr Abdul Qadir ego would be satisfied. Mastan Khan keeps mentioning the beast in Afghanistan airbase that reminds me about global hawk and the American airborne laser weapons that can not only knock out missiles in the air but on the ground including any sensitive equipments and vital parts in sensitive installations high above in the sky well above the stratosphere while the targets on the ground wont even know what hit them.

Conclusion
===========
I would sum up this post with few questions
What about Hamid Gul, why is he silent he was DG ISI, does he admit that things were happening under his nose? Or does he choose to play safe and keep quiet? And remain in the anti government/ anti- Musharraf camp? Benazir had also blamed lack of control over the activities of KRL activities and Abdul Qadirs refusal to appraise her about the nuclear program. It seems that there are a whole lot of people who are either quiet or denying Dr Abdul Qadir’s claims. Gen Baig who is now openly anti Musharraf could have confirmed Doctor’s claims at the expense of Musharraf but he didn’t.

So my dear pro Abdul Qadir friends you are left with a dilemma here
Who do you believe? Gen Hamid Gul ? Nawaz Sherif or Hamid Mir?
If you take Gen Hamid Gul then you can bet to listen to his usual opening phrases of knowing everything because he can read the minds of the west & Taliban as he has worked with both.

Then its tiger turned lion (since hair implants on his scalp) Nawaz Sherif who is famous for not knowing @rse from elbow hence doesn’t know anything about the pardon deal with Musharraf, Kargil issue, the attack on Supreme court etc. so these two great anti Musharraf personalities have two mutually exclusive responses. the result is null. Well that leaves us with Hamid Mir and capital talk
…….enjoy




===============
* There is no mistake in the heading, I chose liars instead of lawyers on purpose.
** There was one claim for a single car for 145 litres of patrol at one time. I have yet to find any 5 door Saloon that has such a big fuel tank

- Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry Petrol Choor


1 J. Robert Oppenheimer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2. Albert Einstein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/QUOTE]

 

[nwmalik]

i dont doubt the hard work of AQK but dont trust his mouth which is a loose cannon

 

[Jihad]

I think AQ Khan should shut up and stop hurting Pakistan's image.
He is portrayed as a hero, so he should try and act like one instead of knee-jerking like this.

 

[seekers]

thanks GOD , people are getting learn about real faces of fake heroes.