AQ Khan: North Korea paid bribes to Generals for nuclear know-how

[nwmalik]

AQK is becoming a liability

 

[The Deterrent]

It would really help if you get your self acquainted with the SOPs and protocols pertaining to discrete and covert transportation of the nuclear weapons by the strategic force commands around the world before you decide to feel sorry for our present and former “generals” by the way its not just the generals but it’s the NCA that makes such decisions which includes both the civilian and military personal with impeccable track record and highest security clearance.

Just like General Zulfiqar has pointed out, this so called letter is the continuation of many similar planed stories in the past that are designed to get an insight from any unintentional disclosure of information from Pakistani authorities when reacting



First one needs to understand the means to make a positive ID of a nuclear arsenal.
I am not sure how many of you are familiar with the scale and size of a military convey on a move. Any conventional army of the world with more or less a million personal engages in army exercises throughout the year from battalion to corps level and they have to use the same routes as used by 180 million population. So, NCA & SFC have the flexibility and freedom to choose where and how to conceal the movement of nuclear weapons should it be among the many conveys of the armed forces or among the many articulated lorries that travel in hundreds of thousands everyday on the roads.( there are over a million 18 wheeler/ articulated lorries on the grand truck roads of Pakistan travelling each day, so good luck there with your laptops).

In order to work, the radiation detectors have to be adjacent to the vehicles or containers transporting such material and they also need few minutes for the readings to make sense, these few minutes depending on how well the fissile material containing weapon is concealed. E.g. by using Boron and/ or Graphite containing layers within the containers.

Here the problem for the spy will be the mobility of these cumbersome detectors that would use photon or neutron bombardment on the suspect vehicle to get a specific signature suggesting radio active material but that presents another dilemma and that is they would be detected themselves by “broadcasting” their proton and neutron streams. So the “snuffers” will have to stay concealed themselves, be able to monitor the moving vehicles for few minutes to get the positive readings and stay concealed throughout the whole time.


During the 80s we caught many “diplomats” loitering over Kahuta and a security personal that served there during that time told me that the SOP was to bundle up that “diplomat” in a blanket and given a beating called “blanket parade” and then released when his embassy contacted the authorities.

The locals of the Kahuta were always very vigilant as well and they kept every visitor and traveller in the area under close supervision. In fact even villagers discovered the passive sensors shaped as rocks and debris placed along the roadsides by the Western intelligence agencies and alerted the authorities. and in one case one such device in a shape of a rock was handed over to Gen Zia who showed it to then American Ambassador


As far as the space and airborne espionage is concerned, that is dependent on the ground intelligence to keep an eye on particular movement as it doesn’t have any detectors that can penetrate the transport to make the positive ID for the material. What makes it more difficult is that the delivery system and the weapon itself never travel together in assembled form so a missile would just pass through like any other conventional military or civilian cargo on a train or an 18 wheeler, the actual “sting” might be transported through a transport helicopter or in a much smaller vehicle. Yes there is always that cat and mouse game going on between the authorities and local and foreign spies but that’s come with the job, the idea is to ensure that the hostile entities are always kept as much in the dark as possible or at least guessing and speculating rather than presenting them with information in a plate just because someone’s ego has been hurt.

Read this story to find out how much Mr Putin is worried if the movement and deployment of his strategic forces is monitored, he is actually making the announcement by inviting all the “laptop” holders to come and detect their movement and location


Putin warns Russia will move nuclear weapons to borders if Moscow is shut out of Western missile shield

Well,another factor that makes the locating of Pakistani nuclear storage sites is the movement of military vehicles in and out of a mountain with a no-go area around it...

About the mysterious rocks...well,US has gone far ahead in this thing...this time Pak Army caught a whole set of stones containing day/night/thermal cameras,call tappers and with a 6 months battery life...but this was caught in NWFP,not around nuclear installations...
Its purpose was to intercept calls made from Sat phones,run them through their most wanted list,locate the target and invite the UCAV...

 

[VCheng]

All this talk about the nuclear arsenal is naive, to say the least. Please keep this in mind:

What good did the thousands of warheads do to the USSR before it collapsed economically and politically?

All the explosive might of nuclear weapons will fall by wayside as we burn our own house down, just like Karachi a thousand times over.

 

[The Deterrent]

All this talk about the nuclear arsenal is naive, to say the least. Please keep this in mind:

What good did the thousands of warheads do to the USSR before it collapsed economically and politically?

All the explosive might of nuclear weapons will fall by wayside as we burn our own house down, just like Karachi a thousand times over.

You are comparing the wrong countries...USSR was a powerful country,invading weak Afghans...in this case,we are the weaker country and India is the stronger one...we may (God forbid) collapse politically and/or economically,but never militarily...

 

[VCheng]

You are comparing the wrong countries...USSR was a powerful country,invading weak Afghans...in this case,we are the weaker country and India is the stronger one...we may (God forbid) collapse politically and/or economically,but never militarily...

Exactly my point. The military might in which so much has been invested over so long a time will be of NO USE if we collapse politically and economically. The sad part is that the "if" is becoming more of a "when" with every passing day, and we are still in denial over it.

 

[Patrician]

You are comparing the wrong countries...USSR was a powerful country,invading weak Afghans...in this case,we are the weaker country and India is the stronger one...we may (God forbid) collapse politically and/or economically,but never militarily...

military cannot survive without economy.

A collapsed economy in itself means a collapsed military and a collapsed country...and that's a no brainer.

When you have no economy, you have no money to buy fuel for the jets, tanks, weapons, spares, ammunition...heck, even ration for the troops.

 

[The Deterrent]

Exactly my point. The military might in which so much has been invested over so long a time will be of NO USE if we collapse politically and economically. The sad part is that the "if" is becoming more of a "when" with every passing day, and we are still in denial over it.

IMO,we should stop increasing the number of nukes...they are more than enough for India...instead we should focus on better and more advanced delivery systems which can evade Indian BMD and sustain minimum credible deterrence....

 

[Irfan Baloch]

very positive thoughts but not relevant to the thread
we seem to be drifting from the topic.
should we ask admin to close it?

 

[DARKY]

It would really help if you get your self acquainted with the SOPs and protocols pertaining to discrete and covert transportation of the nuclear weapons by the strategic force commands around the world before you decide to feel sorry for our present and former “generals” by the way its not just the generals but it’s the NCA that makes such decisions which includes both the civilian and military personal with impeccable track record and highest security clearance.

Just like General Zulfiqar has pointed out, this so called letter is the continuation of many similar planed stories in the past that are designed to get an insight from any unintentional disclosure of information from Pakistani authorities when reacting



First one needs to understand the means to make a positive ID of a nuclear arsenal.
I am not sure how many of you are familiar with the scale and size of a military convey on a move. Any conventional army of the world with more or less a million personal engages in army exercises throughout the year from battalion to corps level and they have to use the same routes as used by 180 million population. So, NCA & SFC have the flexibility and freedom to choose where and how to conceal the movement of nuclear weapons should it be among the many conveys of the armed forces or among the many articulated lorries that travel in hundreds of thousands everyday on the roads.( there are over a million 18 wheeler/ articulated lorries on the grand truck roads of Pakistan travelling each day, so good luck there with your laptops).

In order to work, the radiation detectors have to be adjacent to the vehicles or containers transporting such material and they also need few minutes for the readings to make sense, these few minutes depending on how well the fissile material containing weapon is concealed. E.g. by using Boron and/ or Graphite containing layers within the containers.

Here the problem for the spy will be the mobility of these cumbersome detectors that would use photon or neutron bombardment on the suspect vehicle to get a specific signature suggesting radio active material but that presents another dilemma and that is they would be detected themselves by “broadcasting” their proton and neutron streams. So the “snuffers” will have to stay concealed themselves, be able to monitor the moving vehicles for few minutes to get the positive readings and stay concealed throughout the whole time.


During the 80s we caught many “diplomats” loitering over Kahuta and a security personal that served there during that time told me that the SOP was to bundle up that “diplomat” in a blanket and given a beating called “blanket parade” and then released when his embassy contacted the authorities.

The locals of the Kahuta were always very vigilant as well and they kept every visitor and traveller in the area under close supervision. In fact even villagers discovered the passive sensors shaped as rocks and debris placed along the roadsides by the Western intelligence agencies and alerted the authorities. and in one case one such device in a shape of a rock was handed over to Gen Zia who showed it to then American Ambassador


As far as the space and airborne espionage is concerned, that is dependent on the ground intelligence to keep an eye on particular movement as it doesn’t have any detectors that can penetrate the transport to make the positive ID for the material. What makes it more difficult is that the delivery system and the weapon itself never travel together in assembled form so a missile would just pass through like any other conventional military or civilian cargo on a train or an 18 wheeler, the actual “sting” might be transported through a transport helicopter or in a much smaller vehicle. Yes there is always that cat and mouse game going on between the authorities and local and foreign spies but that’s come with the job, the idea is to ensure that the hostile entities are always kept as much in the dark as possible or at least guessing and speculating rather than presenting them with information in a plate just because someone’s ego has been hurt.

Read this story to find out how much Mr Putin is worried if the movement and deployment of his strategic forces is monitored, he is actually making the announcement by inviting all the “laptop” holders to come and detect their movement and location


Putin warns Russia will move nuclear weapons to borders if Moscow is shut out of Western missile shield

Here's what I found about a disclosure made by certain Anonymous US military officer

As you have probably heard from the major news networks, there is some
concern about the so-called portable nuclear devices developed by the old
USSR. Their former head of the KGB has confirmed the existence of 150
portable devices: 100 of which are presently unaccounted for.
First of all, portable refers to a low yield device with casing that would
require an 18 wheeler to transport! "Suitcase device" is a misnomer. Second,
none of these devices are missing; We know exactly where these devices are
located at any given point in time.

This is how we know: During the 1980's I worked as a Senior Systems Engineer
for several DOD companies in San Diego (Advanced Digital Systems and SAIC).
While in this position I was tasked with developing a "Fleet Satellite
Catastrophic Restoral Plan" for the Joint Chiefs of Staff. My group was to
develop a method for satellite intelligence restoral in the event of a space
born nuclear strike by the Soviet Union. In the course of this study, we had
to review all satellite capabilities and characteristics: both current and
projected through the early ninety's.

A series of satellites planned to begin deployment in 1989 (temporarily
delayed by the Shuttle explosion) are now aloft (2nd phase of the MILSTAR
Program) They carry special sensor devices (Developed by SAIC) that can
detect high-velocity spin-off particles from enriched uranium (necessary for
nuclear devices). Due to the small size and velocity of these particles, no
amount of shielding can block them: not lead, not earth (sub-terrainian).
Radiation hazards from these particles are minimal due to limited quantity.
Our satellites are fool-proof in detecting and pin-pointing the locations of
enriched uranium throughout the world.

The nuclear verification process employed in monitoring Iraq and other
nations via NATO and the United Nations uses these satellite joint detection
systems (the NSA controls and tracks the data). Many articles concerning
these satellites have already been written in specialty magazines (Defense
Science and Electronics-for one). Any attempt to bring a nuclear device into
our country would be instantly detected (not to mention the track of its
mobile transport).

And this rather is two decade old incident further advancement in the technology must have taken place.
About the Russian part........most of their nuclear warheads are thermonuclear.....unlike Pakistan which uses Uranium and it was more of a warning.......Russians does have ICBMs in huge numbers that can reach every NATO city from well within Russia.
On top of that they do employ several warhead shielding technologies thanks to their 60 years experience in Nuclear weapon technology and some top level mineral scientists and engineers....some thing which can only be learnt with experience and no country would share.

About the points raised by you I don't think its hard to notice a 18 wheeled vehicle convoy with security in some remote country side backward or rural area as the strategic command would never risk deploying them near population centers......besides there's always is a rough idea on which such places could be.....however again its like a cat and mouse game and the success of such techniques does depend on how advanced shielding can Strategic command can put against 100 years of research and development in US and European radiation detection technologies.

 

[DARKY]

@Irfan Baloch;
Here's a more recent article........

Detecting nuclear and radiological materials

Detecting nuclear and radiological materials
Summary
On 10-11 December 2007 the Royal Society held a two day workshop to explore innovative approaches for
detecting the illicit trafficking of nuclear and radiological materials. It began by setting out the potential
threats of concern and reviewed current detection capabilities that address them. It then explored novel
approaches to improving these capabilities, and considered ways to develop any promising ideas. The
workshop incorporated a limited discussion of nuclear forensics. It brought together 70 leading scientific and
policy experts from the UK, USA, Russia, Israel and several other European countries. This report summarises
the key issues raised in the presentations and discussions. It represents views expressed at the workshop and
does not necessarily represent the views of the Royal Society. A programme and list of participants are
provided in Appendices A and B respectively.
The key points arising from the workshop were:


The detection of nuclear and radiological materials is one facet of a multilayered defence against nuclear
security threats, which also requires robust prevention and response elements. Information sharing,
especially of good intelligence, is central to all aspects.


In the near term (3-5 years) low cost detectors with improved energy resolution for gamma ray
spectroscopy will remain the key priority. Germanium based detector technologies remain the gold
standard and developments in cooling will improve and broaden their field applications. In the medium
term (5-10 years), there are promising opportunities to develop new technologies, such as muon
detection systems. In the long term (10-20 years) detection could benefit from advances in
nanotechnology and organic semiconductors.


Systems analysis underpinned by powerful information technologies should inform detector design and
increase overall system effectiveness. Simulations are essential for optimising the performance and
deployment of different detectors. They can identify vulnerabilities and thereby help focus the allocation
of resources. Networking detector technologies is an important part of this approach.


Aerial detection systems are valuable in preventative and responsive roles. Unmanned aerial vehicle based
systems show particular promise for emergency response and highly manoeuvrable rotary-wing systems
are valuable in urban environments.


Nuclear forensics capabilities need to be improved as reliable attribution leading to prosecution presents
a strong preventative deterrent to potential traffickers. For robust and rapid attribution of radiological
and nuclear materials the fusion of different technical and intelligence data is important, including
sharing of international material databases.


International cooperation is essential to develop shared threat assessments to help identify and prioritise
capability gaps. Greater coordination is needed at all levels for research and development, certification,
testing, and trialling of detection systems, as well as technology sharing and training. This will help
reduce funding costs, avoid duplication of efforts, and build confidence in global nuclear security.

Hope this Information is helpful and mods don't delete this/close the thread.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

@Irfan Baloch;
Here's a more recent article........

Detecting nuclear and radiological materials.

thanks, I have read the MIT thesis paper on it detailing the port based detection system employing both the protons and neutron bombardment and reading their specific pattern for any concealed device. All these systems have their advantages and their limitations.

Biggest being their own detection in a foreign country if they are meant to be deployed remotely and covertly. But like I said earlier that is entirely different discussion and irrelevant to the thread.

The point to discuss was how authentic this letter was and how outrageous can a person get who was entrusted with the utmost responsibility and authority to oversee the most clandestine and sophisticated program in the history of Pakistan.

Foreign powers knowing the possible deployment and location of the sites is one thing. Some knowledge is based on speculations and assumptions and some are false flags and some are real but may not be the complete picture. This cat and mouse game goes on. The super powers are also constantly in a covert war in the airwaves, in space and in the seas when they are snooping around
In their submarines, sometimes they are successful and sometimes they are not. But what doesn’t really help is someone who was originally a signatory of secret act , decides to play a spoilt child and switches sides.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

military cannot survive without economy.

A collapsed economy in itself means a collapsed military and a collapsed country...and that's a no brainer.

When you have no economy, you have no money to buy fuel for the jets, tanks, weapons, spares, ammunition...heck, even ration for the troops.

Someone on another thread said something along the lines of 'why bring in the civilian government when discussing the military', well, in this case, why introduce a subject that the civilians are responsible for, and blame the military?

Introducing economic reforms, tax reforms and reforming the loss making PSE's (that cost the taxpayers close to the entire defence budget every year) are decisions that are no in the hands of the elected representatives of Pakistan - so while your larger point is valid, it needs to be made in a different thread and addresses to the civilian institutions, not the military.

The paucity of resources being directed into development, education and infrastructure can be easily addressed through the reforms mentioned, and those reforms are the only 'sustainable and long term solution' to the lack of resources in Pakistan - cutting a few billion in military expenditure will only kick the can down the road and provide short term relief, without addressing the actual structural problems related to corruption, poor law and order (driving away investment or making investment to expensive and risky), very small tax base, PSE's that lose billions of dollars a year and cause indirect losses of billions more etc.

 

[VelocuR]

AQ Khan is now officially another Mr. Vanunu, who Israeli nuclear whistleblower openly to foreign press. Pakistan authorities need to put him in jail time or cutt off snake's head.

 

[Awesome]

SO fCUK WHAT. Even if it is true so they took some money big deal. Who are america israel to say who can have nukes and not other. This is just propaganda at this time because pakistan does not bow to badstads americans as much as they would like. I think every morning all these western press editors get together and say ok what can we slag pakistan off for today,,

It is a big deal. this was a Pakistani asset and if AQ Khan's assertions are true, then people have been selling them around for personal benefit. AQK is not the most reliable person on this, a money trail is not a letter saying money will be paid, a money trail is remittance information, bank statements, bank balances. So its stupid and anyone saying "it looks genuine" should come out and explain why it looks genuine. We have seen blind firing upon Pakistani nuclear program previously too and this looks more like that.

 

[Awesome]

IMO there was only the missile tech trade and now people are trying to turn it round and round and round hoping it would turn into something else.

Iran was the sole benefactor in any real sense of AQK, however they too pretty much got bogus stuff and AQK went out to help them out due to the Islamic factor.