Another ‘blasphemy’ case

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Thanks for being patient with me, but my curiosity is genuine and not to antagonize anyone. Everyone speaks of islamic state and implementation of sharia, without defining clearly what it is.

Hope I m of some help bringing some clarity...


Does this mean that the Caliph will be decided by senior judge/Quazi?
How are Quazi's selected?

Qadhis are selected based on their knowledge of the law... like our judges of this day and age...

Caliphs are selected in different ways... Search for some of my previous posts I m sure I have discussed it on another thread...

Will Zakat and Jaziya replace income tax in an islamic state? What happens to other taxes and duties, will they be abolished?

There wont be any man made taxes in the state... so yes... all taxes and duties pretty much would be abolished...

Does it mean non-muslims have no right to defend their dignity, life, livelihood and property? Will they be permitted to bear arms like muslims?

If you read an edited post previously... non Muslims are allowed in the Army... they have the right to defend themselves of course... but they can call in the SWAT also if they are being harassed by someone

Is a non-tax/Jazia paying citizen fair game? What is the punishment for not paying Zakat/Jaziya?

lol... yes... we will grab them and lynch them on the road side... what a silly question yaar... I m saying this with a smile...

Those who evade taxes get fined and pay more (if however they are unable to pay, they get stipends)

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

How did they had extreme sentiments? What you are favoring (and I think that is Shariah) is a closed system from the very beginning. Democracy is flexible, the laws can be changed/formulated based on the will of the people. The system should be implemented on the society and the society, in turn, must have the power to reform/change/formulate the system. Not a system which once defined becomes unchangeable - that surely is then extremism and irrational extremism rather.

My dear, you sound like a young man... you have to consider the whole picture... when you give freedom to man to legislate... the rich and powerful get their way... This western democracy has been the result recently of bloody wars and conflict (at all times consider the advantages it brings to the military industrial complex of the United States at the expense of the common man in America who is going jobless and without a roof over his head... Democracy has allowed these powerful people to implement an economic order which caters to the rich alone... the rich keep getting richer and the poor poorer... not just nationally but globally... part of our problems in the developing world is directly because of that... we have nt even paid back our debt compounded to zillions due to interest... If you take my Cannibal example with a little thought, you ll see what a jungle system you are proposing...

As for the west... most people do not even bother voting any more... No one likes their politics or politicians... I know very few politicians in a few western countries who have actually done some good for their people...


Yes, it is, but the cause you are after may not be proper for everyone or may not be harmonious with the thinking of others. And if your cause is proper, then you should never have the necessity of having people abide by it forcibly, as is the basic requirement of Shariah.

You would not know this perhaps unless you see it in action... So wait before you make an uninformed judgement...

 

[Valiant_Soul]

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My dear, you sound like a young man... you have to consider the whole picture... when you give freedom to man to legislate... the rich and powerful get their way... This western democracy has been the result recently of bloody wars and conflict (at all times consider the advantages it brings to the military industrial complex of the United States at the expense of the common man in America who is going jobless and without a roof over his head... Democracy has allowed these powerful people to implement an economic order which caters to the rich alone... the rich keep getting richer and the poor poorer... not just nationally but globally... part of our problems in the developing world is directly because of that... we have nt even paid back our debt compounded to zillions due to interest... If you take my Cannibal example with a little thought, you ll see what a jungle system you are proposing...

As for the west... most people do not even bother voting any more... No one likes their politics or politicians... I know very few politicians in a few western countries who have actually done some good for their people...

My dear old sir, you are again talking about the fallacies of the implementation of the system of democracy itself. You do not mean to imply that the US and the Europe are not prosperous, do you? If they are then the system is working fine, however, only a naive can expect a perfect governing system. The people alone can work to make a perfect system and not that you can define a perfect system.

You would not know this perhaps unless you see it in action... So wait before you make an uninformed judgement...

I have my fingers cross, don't make me wait forever.

 

[shuntmaster]

Qadhis are selected based on their knowledge of the law... like our judges of this day and age...

Caliphs are selected in different ways... Search for some of my previous posts I m sure I have discussed it on another thread...

Thanks for quick response. It would be difficult to scan your 700+ posts. We would be grateful if you could give us here a gist of the Caliph selection processes. Thanks in advance.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

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My dear old sir, you are again talking about the fallacies of the implementation of the system of democracy itself. You do not mean to imply that the US and the Europe are not prosperous, do you? If they are then the system is working fine, however, only a naive can expect a perfect governing system. The people alone can work to make a perfect system and not that you can define a perfect system.



I have my fingers cross, don't make me wait forever.

Our measuring yardstick for prosperity is based in reality... not what the west is telling us... GDP is a cunning measure of prosperity... what good is GDP when you have million unemployed..

Yes America and Europe have prospered... but to do that they had to implement double standards... they had to steal our wealth by placing puppet leaders in the Muslim world whom no one likes and most were not even elected (so much for democracy)... In Pakistan, their recent favorite was GENERAL MUSH who came to power without any election... you keep missing this bigger picture...

The kind of poverty that you see amongst the abundance in the west is heart breaking dear sir... One needs to look around a little carefully and you see the homeless and the beggars in the most posh of all shopping streets in Europe and America... this is not prosperity... it is misery...

Our standard for prosperity btw is that everyone should at least have their own food, clothing and house... after that one can work on their luxury items...

Most people in the west dont own their house and take mortgages... such unjust systems may survive for a while (hell communism survived for more than 80 years) but there comes a time when everyone starts seeing holes in the sheet that covers the eyes... Dont be fooled... The west is collapsing without a shred of a doubt... they are doing their best to hold it... but people within the governments of Europe and America would know all too well what I m saying here...

So uncross your fingers and go to the library... get that book... study it... and then come and discuss

 

[shuntmaster]

There wont be any man made taxes in the state... so yes... all taxes and duties pretty much would be abolished...

Those who evade taxes get fined and pay more (if however they are unable to pay, they get stipends)

In today's times more than 60-70% of the governments revenues come from indirect taxes and duties. If these are abolished how will the government in an Islamic state function? Where will be military budget come from? What about the money for public education? Will there be only madrasas or will secular education be allowed? Who will finance public healthcare? And infrastructure building?

What is the punishment, as per sharia, if some non-muslim refuses to pay jaziya?

 

[Valiant_Soul]

Our standard for prosperity btw is that everyone should at least have their own food, clothing and house... after that one can work on their luxury items...

That is not just your standard of prosperity, but that is the general standard of prosperity. And you seem to feel that the Shariah can ensure all this without any 'side-effects'?

So uncross your fingers and go to the library... get that book... study it... and then come and discuss

If you are talking about the Koran, we have online versions.

 

[Stumper]

... they had to steal our wealth by placing puppet leaders in the Muslim world whom no one likes and most were not even elected (so much for democracy)... In Pakistan, their recent favorite was GENERAL MUSH who came to power without any election... you keep missing this bigger picture...

This is ridiculous to say the least. West Stealing your wealth!!!!

The kind of poverty that you see amongst the abundance in the west is heart breaking dear sir... One needs to look around a little carefully and you see the homeless and the beggars in the most posh of all shopping streets in Europe and America... this is not prosperity... it is misery...

So the Homeless is a Sign of Economic Failure as per you. Fine with me. But how is it inferior from the Sharia based System implemented by Afghanistan, Chechnya, etc?

Most people in the west dont own their house and take mortgages...

Sir, subprime crisis is no excuse for condensing the Have-Not's. Is your Data specific to a certain country or to the whole of western world?

So uncross your fingers and go to the library... get that book... study it... and then come and discuss

Or maybe, you can have a read of "Islamic Leviathan" and we can discuss it.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

This is ridiculous to say the least. West Stealing your wealth!!!!


So the Homeless is a Sign of Economic Failure as per you. Fine with me. But how is it inferior from the Sharia based System implemented by Afghanistan, Chechnya, etc?



Sir, subprime crisis is no excuse for condensing the Have-Not's. Is your Data specific to a certain country or to the whole of western world?


Or maybe, you can have a read of "Islamic Leviathan" and we can discuss it.

The only comment that I would respond to would be the last one... the rest need no response...

For someone who does a study of Malaysia and Pakistan as some sort of Islamic model, I d say the writer has wasted a lot of his time... That book is not worth my time or money...

---------- Post added at 01:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:43 PM ----------

That is not just your standard of prosperity, but that is the general standard of prosperity. And you seem to feel that the Shariah can ensure all this without any 'side-effects'?



If you are talking about the Koran, we have online versions.

If history is a measure... yes certainly it can be done...

Online version would do you no benefit... unless you actually read it

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

In today's times more than 60-70% of the governments revenues come from indirect taxes and duties. If these are abolished how will the government in an Islamic state function? Where will be military budget come from? What about the money for public education? Will there be only madrasas or will secular education be allowed? Who will finance public healthcare? And infrastructure building?

What is the punishment, as per sharia, if some non-muslim refuses to pay jaziya?

I am not going to entertain your laziness my friend... We have a good search feature on the forum... use it...

Some of your other questions are answered in a book I have... I can give you a link to an online version... PM me!!!

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Well communism destroyed USSR, it never truly worked for them while Capitalism worked wonders for the countries which followed it.

China has mixed the best of both worlds and is very succesful in its current state.

As for Pakistan, it is not a secular state, a secular state does not have a state religion, a secular state does not have blasphemy laws, a secular state does not have laws based on religion or about religion.

Pakistan is a confused state, it was not meant to be an Islamic state and even if it become one, we do not have the leaders to implement Sharia.

To become succesful, we have to follow the examples around us as China has. It has picked the best of what worked around the world and look at its success.

I agree actually... my comment about secularism and capitalism are valid however... we are secular in the sense that we only pay lip service to Islam whether it be part of our name or some bits and pieces in legislation... the rest is secular and capitalism is the name of the game in our economics...

we can certainly adopt the militarization of industry that happened in China... In matters of economic science all ideas can be accepted... but in matters of economic system only Islam should be adopted (economic science would be methods to increase production and improve quality)... however we cannot adopt the Chinese ruling system which is based on brutality... neither the economic system which is now Capitalist...

As for the leaders to implement Shariah... do you want to meet some?

 

[shuntmaster]

I am not going to entertain your laziness my friend... We have a good search feature on the forum... use it...

Some of your other questions are answered in a book I have... I can give you a link to an online version... PM me!!!

A link to your previous posts, which you refer to, will be much appreciated by all on this threat.
Thanks

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

A link to your previous posts, which you refer to, will be much appreciated by all on this threat.
Thanks

put Caliph election in the search... see what comes up

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Well...in my opinion a well defined ideology is important..No matter where it comes from...Socialism or communism are not religions...just systems of government...I am ok with Pakistan adopting any of these systems or a mixture,and leave religion to people..The state wont stop anybody and wont make any laws contradictory to Islamic traditions...but saying that "Siyasah" or siyasat is the stage 5 of religious understanding..
Imaaniaat----Understanding of faith
Ibaadaat------Understanding and practical implementation of Prayers
Muaashratt----Understanding and practical implication of social living
Muaashiaat-----Understanding of trade and finances
Siyaasah--------Understanding of Islamic government system

These were the 5 stages in which step by step..Islam was introduced and implemented among people of Arabia..originally..

For example Alcohol was not banned the first day..It was years before Alcohol was finally banned...was it done on the first day..only the elite had complied,the rest couldn't have...Step by step,people were made aware that alcohol is bad,and when the time war right,the Verse banning Alcohol was recited by Holy Prophet PBUH.

We cannot skip the other 4 stages and go straight away to stage 5..wont work..
For that reason i am not in favor of even the idea of Caliphate in this era..It simply wont work.

2 Points Saf...

1. Laws are already made... To say we wont make laws contradictory to Islam makes no sense... How are we going to make a law saying that Riba is forbidden... Has nt it already been made for us? Why do we need to make it once again?

2. Step by step implementation (although an opinion of some scholars is incorrect)... There was a time when the law prohibiting alcohol was not revealed... but now it has been revealed... Also the Quran states clearly that Deen has been completed... so to allow alcohol today makes no sense because it has already been forbidden... You can still of course be forgiving and give people warning if they get caught in such a sin... there are examples of that during the Caliph's Rashideen times... but that is not the same as we do not have a law of prohibition!!!

 

[shuntmaster]

put Caliph election in the search... see what comes up

I did. Got dozens of results
Read your long post in the 'democracy thread' . But the issue of caliph election/selection is very ambiguous there. There is no clear cut procedures or guidelines.