Another ‘blasphemy’ case

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

abay yaar jaan nahee choray ga meri too...

Ok... different methods to elect a Caliph...

1. Nomination by Caliph for a successor... if people in general have no objection and they are happy with the nomination, he can be Caliph

2. Election from a selected group of leaders... Again they can all get blasted in live debate and questions put to all of them as to their stance on the important issues of the day and how they will administer and manage... in the end people can vote and elect their choice...

3. These two methods give right to vote to all Muslims... this wont be the method for the re establishment however... that would happen when the influentials in certain Muslim majority lands (like Pakistan) decide to give pledge to an Ameer so that he can start implementing the rules and establish the institutions for the state to start functioning...

 

[SQ8]

2 Points Saf...

1. Laws are already made... To say we wont make laws contradictory to Islam makes no sense... How are we going to make a law saying that Riba is forbidden... Has nt it already been made for us? Why do we need to make it once again?

2. Step by step implementation (although an opinion of some scholars is incorrect)... There was a time when the law prohibiting alcohol was not revealed... but now it has been revealed... Also the Quran states clearly that Deen has been completed... so to allow alcohol today makes no sense because it has already been forbidden... You can still of course be forgiving and give people warning if they get caught in such a sin... there are examples of that during the Caliph's Rashideen times... but that is not the same as we do not have a law of prohibition!!!

Considering this is a country where 70% of the population is still trying to figure out imaniyaat..
Ibadiyat is done without really knowing why..my father did it. so do I..
Musharaat is based on culture and not Islam..or a frankenstein of each.
Muashiaat are non-existent..
and everybody has their own siyasiayahh..

So yes.. the model of the first days of Islam does apply here..

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Considering this is a country where 70% of the population is still trying to figure out imaniyaat..
Ibadiyat is done without really knowing why..my father did it. so do I..
Musharaat is based on culture and not Islam..or a frankenstein of each.
Muashiaat are non-existent..
and everybody has their own siyasiayahh..

So yes.. the model of the first days of Islam does apply here..

You can be forgiving... but cant say there aint no law prohibiting certain things... I did say this... You cannot say that there is no law prohibiting gambling, drinking alcohol or Riba... if you do then you reject the law that is revealed...

“…He it is Who has sent unto you the Book, explained in detail. They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it has been sent down from your Rabb in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.” (6:114)

“For We had certainly sent unto them a Book based on knowledge, which We explained in detail -- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.” (7:52)

“…(This is ) a Book with verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning) -- further explained in detail -- from One Who is Wise and Well-Acquainted (with all things).” (11:1)

“...This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.” (5:3)


We would need to bring our people in line with a certain understanding of Islam as a political ideology... but then when Lenin and his Bolsheviks took power in Russia... not everyone understood Communism...

Most people still dont understand Capitalism I swear... LOL

May Allah give us guidance Ameen

Oh yes... and this is one gem of advice...

Anas bin Malik (radhiallâhu anhu) narrated that the Prophet (sallallâhu ‘alayhi wasallam) said, "Make things easy for the people, and do not make it difficult for them, and make them calm (with glad tidings) and do not repulse (them).” (Bukhâri,8/146)

 

[shuntmaster]

abay yaar jaan nahee choray ga meri too...

Ok... different methods to elect a Caliph...

Once again thanks for being patient and bearing with me.

1. Nomination by Caliph for a successor... if people in general have no objection and they are happy with the nomination, he can be Caliph

So, how will be first caliph selected? are you suggesting that the position of caliphs be hereditary one.
How will you gauge the opinion of the people in general, that they have no objection for the nomination of a new caliph? Should there be 100% consensus or a simple 50% majority will do?

2. Election from a selected group of leaders... Again they can all get blasted in live debate and questions put to all of them as to their stance on the important issues of the day and how they will administer and manage... in the end people can vote and elect their choice...

Isn't this same as US style presidential election?
Once elected, what will be the tenure of the Caliph?

3. These two methods give right to vote to all Muslims... this wont be the method for the re establishment however... that would happen when the influentials in certain Muslim majority lands (like Pakistan) decide to give pledge to an Ameer so that he can start implementing the rules and establish the institutions for the state to start functioning...

Don't the first 2 methods point to secular democracy style elections in selection of the Caliph?

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Once again thanks for being patient and bearing with me.


So, how will be first caliph selected? are you suggesting that the position of caliphs be hereditary one.
How will you gauge the opinion of the people in general, that they have no objection for the nomination of a new caliph? Should there be 100% consensus or a simple 50% majority will do?

hmmmm... you are six years old innit? LOL

No dont get me wrong... I dont mind your questions at all... God bless you for asking...

Forget the first Caliph... Something is being instigated as we speak

How did you get the impression that I suggest hereditary Caliph? Did nt I say people vote?

There can never be consensus... even in the time of the Rashideen there was no consensus... the majority should suffice... 50 + percent...


Isn't this same as US style presidential election?
Once elected, what will be the tenure of the Caliph?

It is somewhat similar (perhaps they do this bit after studying Islamic history... I dont know... but candidates will be questioned on their opinions on issues... (and if they backtracked after election they ll be sued for fraud also... possibly losing their post)

Tenure of Caliph is life long (as long as he keeps implementing rules of Islam, the pledge remains)... if people become unhappy with him, they can take him to court and he can resign... but if there is no case against him and he continues to function... he remains the Caliph and the Commander in Chief!!!

Don't the first 2 methods point to secular democracy style elections in selection of the Caliph?

This is why Muslims keep confusing Caliphate/Islam with Democracy...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

So shuntmaster...

Are you thinking of becoming a Muslim?

 

[shuntmaster]

So shuntmaster...

Are you thinking of becoming a Muslim?

haha.. I'm open to all ideas.
I'm really curious about the Islamic state talked about by many here.. Who knows, may be its the future of mankind..

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

haha.. I'm open to all ideas.
I'm really curious about the Islamic state talked about by many here.. Who knows, may be its the future of mankind..

Islamic state will come Insha Allah we might wont see it. but anyhow the fight between good and evil will lost till the end.

TARIQ

 

[Ahmad]

will pakistan allow its nukes to come under the control of khalifa and khilafat?

 

[architect_cobb]

Welcome to the discussion Mr Architect Cobb...

You seem confused about the issue... East Pakistan turned into Bangladesh EXACTLY because we did not look at Islam for our solution... not the other way around... If you take a second to think about it, you are basically supporting my point of view in reality, because the root of the problem in East Pakistan was Nationalism, not Islam!!! duh

thats what you think, if you read some of their history books and what they call their war of independance, it is claimed that the west pakistan was shoving their agenda down the throat of east Pakistanis under the cloak of Islam. Not to mention that in East Pakistan their was a considerable non muslim population as well which was not happy with the over Islamization driven by the west Pak. May be thats why their Supreme court has recently banned any interference by religion in the affairs of state, a wise move indeed.

So the reason they separated was:-

1) The bond of religion was not strong enough to hold the two nations together.


As a matter of fact bond of religion was not even strong enough to hold Bannu Hashim and Bannu Ummayya together a few years after the death of Holy Prophet, and it led to martyrdom of Hazrat Usman and they later divisions during Hazrat Ali's time.

As for your point about mixing religion with nationality... I dont know what religion you are talking about... Islam has no place for sects... What we do allow is difference of opinion based on valid Shariah text... That results in schools of Jurisprudence i.e Fiqh... Sects are something like Qadianis etc... They are clearly out of the fold of Islam...

And yet we have many sects, so are you implying that those who follow a certain sect are not muslims?

Again what you overlook here is that being a Pakistani you have to have your roots in Islam... Pakistan was built for this very reason... I mean Afghans can remain Afghans, Turks can be turks, Arabs shall be Arabs, but us Pakistanis, we simply do not have any other identity... because a few decades ago we were all basically INDIANS!!!

No Pakistan was not made for Islam, it was made for Indian Muslims. So Just as Afghanistan is for Afghans, and Turkey is for Turks, Pakistan is for Pakistanis(Who happened to be called Indian muslims pre 1947).

It is absolutely wrong to confine Islam into a nationalist frame work... Islam is a system of universal brotherhood... There is no such thing as nationalism in Islam... You choose your sides very carefully here...

and what you quoted from me illustrates this clearly... Had it not been for Islam, I have absolutely no use for my Pakistani identity... but my pride in Pakistan is because we got that land in the name of God and His Messenger...

Thats your personal choice and you can be proud of whatever as an individual

I think my above post will explain what you have written above very clearly... There is absolutely no plan for the Caliphate to remain confined to the borders of Pakistan my friend

Don't mix caliphate with Islam, these are two different things. But that discussion we were having in a separate thread and I already proved to you that the two were not the same.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...orking-establish-caliphate-6.html#post1308426

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

will pakistan allow its nukes to come under the control of khalifa and khilafat?

assalam alaikum

If khilafah is there then there will not be pakistan or any other country and this will be the assets of ummah extending from indonesia to moracco. Uniting of muslims is dream of a muslim but unfortunately we have limited ourselves to boundaries and races and tribes.

TARIQ

 

[Ahmad]

instead of khilafat, i think if we establish good relationships between ourselves based on trust and respect to each other, improve economincal, cultural, educational etc ties, this is the best way forward. no matter what you say, the practicality of implementing khilafat makes it impossible considering the huge population scattering all over the world.

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

instead of khilafat, i think if we establish good relationships between ourselves based on trust and respect to each other, improve economincal, cultural, educational etc ties, this is the best way forward. no matter what you say, the practicality of implementing khilafat makes it impossible considering the huge population scattering all over the world.

assalam alaikum,

Most of the muslim countries got their independence after WW2. We know how in this period we improved all those ties while each one of our countries let the west or the soviet union lead us to nowhere.

Since the independence of our countries none of us progressed well and they r still 3rd world countries and the way it is going they will be the same for next 1000 years.

West have the model for them and they achieved it. We as a muslim have the model of our Prophet's (PBUH ) life and the era of khulafa'a rashideen , majority of the muslim more then 1 billion muslims consider that era the best so that is our model.

Yes it is impossible due to the situation now, nothing is easy needs hard work , focus , clean leadership above their race, tribal thinking etc. If we can't have khilafah it is not the end of the road i still strongly advocate what u above (bolded part) mentioned.

TARIQ

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

instead of khilafat, i think if we establish good relationships between ourselves based on trust and respect to each other, improve economincal, cultural, educational etc ties, this is the best way forward. no matter what you say, the practicality of implementing khilafat makes it impossible considering the huge population scattering all over the world.

This has been tried before and never works... as long as we remain divided with Nationalist ideals, we will go nowhere...

Ideology is the only thing that gives people real progress... As for the practicality, Khilafat is a much more practical system compared to the non sense we have in the world today... be them dictatorships, puppet regimes, western democracies or middle eastern monarchies and theocracy...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

will pakistan allow its nukes to come under the control of khalifa and khilafat?

The Caliphate shall be a nuclear armed state from the day of its inception... inshaAllah

You should get the point