Anna Hazare released from jail after India-wide protests, begins fasting

[jha]

PMO has everything to hide which should be remain hide in national intrest ..

Thats why certain areas are excluded from JanLokpal..For ever other subject- there must be a body to watch over..

---------- Post added at 02:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 PM ----------

May be i am being silly, but i think that if Judiciary is kept aside then it could be a problem in future. This is my stand and i have given my reason for this too, i accept that Lokpal isn't a omnipotent org, but it can definitely bring more accountability in its present proposed structure and any change can be dilution of it. I think Judiciary of all should be under Lokpal.

This is where i have reservations with janLokpal..Judiciary should be excluded from janlokpal ..

 

[Bang Galore]

May be i am being silly, but i think that if Judiciary is kept aside then it could be a problem in future. This is my stand and i have given my reason for this too, i accept that Lokpal isn't a omnipotent org, but it can definitely bring more accountability in its present proposed structure and any change can be dilution of it. I think Judiciary of all should be under Lokpal.

You seem to be deliberately misconstruing my argument. I have only said that I support a separate institution to deal with the judiciary & not bring it under Lokpal for the reasons I have stated. You have no explanation for what your opposition to a separate institution is. Just chanting Lokpal, Lokpal like a mantra is not necessarily a panacea for all our ills.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

kinda off discussion, but found it interesting :

"It takes years to hang Kasab, months to arrest Kalmadi but mins to arrest Anna. Welcome to democratic India !!!"

 

[Tripathy]

See IBN-Live. just saw that. the word "Crackdown".....is being used as if some people have died.....Look at the tone and teneor of the reporters...they are as if covering Syria....

 

[Kinetic]

kinda off discussion, but found it interesting :

"It takes years to hang Kasab, months to arrest Kalmadi but mins to arrest Anna. Welcome to democratic India !!!"

Kasab will never be hanged because there is no executioner to hang him. Thousands waiting in the list. Last person hanged 5/6 years back and that executioner Nata Mallick died. Welcome to resilient India!!!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Crackdown does not mean using police brute force!

 

[Tripathy]

kinda off discussion, but found it interesting :


It costs a life for Kasav, It costs all credibility and effort to prove his innocence to court for Kalamadi, but govt. realizes its mistake and release him inn hours....that is democracy.

Democracy does not mean that Kalmadi and kasav will be tried...and anna will be spared for his breaking of law. Democracy functions to see that punishment is proportional.

 

[indushek]

The Jan Lokpal Bill [13]
Government's Lokpal Bill [14]

Prime Minister
Can be investigated with permission of seven member Lokpal bench.[11]
PM cannot be investigate by Lokpal.[15]
i agree with govt stand ,PMO should be immune to any investigation , as it affect it's fuctioning

Judiciary
Can be investigated, though high level members may be investigated only with permission of a seven member Lokpal bench.[11]
Judiciary is exempt and will be covered by a separate "judicial accountability bill".[12]
i agree with govt stand that Judiciary should remain free ..

MPs
Can be investigated with permission of seven member Lokpal bench.[11]
Can be investigated, but their conduct within Pariliament, such as voting, cannot be investigated.[12]
i agree with govt stand ,every person has a right on his vote , why lolpal or anyone alse need to investigate on voting

Lower bureaucracy
All public servants would be included.[12]
Only Group A officers will be covered.[12]
i agree with govt stand , presently compaints against Lower officers can be filled at locla authorities , ...
it will be brudern on lokpak office to see every single compaint...

CBI
The CBI will be merged into the Lokpal.[12]
The CBI will remain a separate agency.[11]
i agree with govt stand ,every case need a investigating agency depends upon the level of indepth investigation required and there are different agencies for it CID , CBI , CVC etc

Removal of Lokpal members and Chair
Any person can bring a complaint to the Supreme Court, who can then recommend removal of any member to the President.[11]
Any "aggrieved party" can raise a complaint to the President, who will refer the matter to the CJI.[11]
i don't see any point of difference in both versions..

Removal of Lokpal staff and officers
Complaints against Lokpal staff will be handled by independent boards set-up in each state, composed of retired bureaucrats, judges, and civil society members.[11]
Lokpal will conduct inquiries into its own behavior.[11]
i disagree with both ,how to ensure that these retired bureaucrats, judges, and civil society members are not corrupte and how a person can inquiries into its own behavior , in my view matter should be reffer to concer investigating agency

Lokayukta
Lokakyukta and other local/state anti-corruption agency would remain in place.[12]
All state anti-corruption agencies would be closed and responsibilities taken over by centralized Lokpal.[12]
i agree with an lokpal , it will be a burden for one lokpal to see the cases spead across country in every states , also it's better to diversify the power then to centerlize it


Whistleblower protection
Whistleblowers are protected law.[11]
No protection granted to whistleblowers.[11]
dis agree with both ,if whistleblowers seck protection , they can go to polic there are already law for it.


Punishment for corruption
Lokpal can either directly impose penalties, or refer the matter to the courts. Penalties can include removal from office, imprisonment, and recovery of assets from those who benefited from the corruption.[11]
Lokpal can only refer matters to the courts, not take any direct punitive actions. Penalties remain equivalent to those in current law.[11]
what jan lokpal saying that court systems should be abolished and only lokpal will decide on every case verdict, i agree with govt version that matter be reffered to the court

Investigatory powers
Lokpal can obtain wiretaps, issue rogatory letters, and recruit investigating officers. Cannot issue contempt orders.[11]
Lokpal can issue contempt orders, and has the ability to punish those in contempt. No authority to obtain wiretaps, issue rogatory letters, or recruit investigating officers.[11]
dis agree with both , lokpal shouldn't take the job of the court

False, frivolous and vexatious complaints
Lokpal can issue fines for frivolous complaints (including frivolous complaints against Lokpal itself), with a maximum penalty of 1 lakh.[11].
Court system will handle matters of frivolous complaints. Courts can issue fines of Rs25,000 to 2 lakh.[11]
disagree with both , if the investigating agencies can't find the proper evidence to validate a compaint , is it the foult of a compainie

Scope
All corruption can be investigated.[12]
Only high-level corruption can be investigated.[12]
agree with govt , lower level corruption should be handled at local level , different agencies should investigate different case base on the level of experties required

The first point outlines the popular stand and the second Governments

As u can see Jha ji has replied on PM's, MP's and CBI so u can see that, now let us see the rest of your views and try to find a middle ground. Before i begin i would like u to know that ultimately u and me want a stronger and better India, we are not here to fight whose point is better, due to which i said Middle ground.

ON Judiciary u say "i agree with govt stand that Judiciary should remain free .."

Now my argument is that if the Judiciary is not going to be investigated by Lokpal then an Individual body another entity will do this. We will have persons with legal knowledge there too as they do better i hope u agree on this. In what way will Lokpal hinder judiciary and this new body will not?? Let us take the case of an ongoing trial where people see that the Judge is not behaving impartially do u mean to say that still the Judiciary shouldn't be stopped from its course of action? I am not a legal person i don't know if the legal proceedings will be stopped and the Judge will be changed midway but if this is allowable then it should be stopped isn't it. If it can't be then proceedings should be brought against the Judge atleast after the case is completed the one in which he is supposed to have behave improperly of his chair.

On whistle blower protection you say "dis agree with both ,if whistleblowers seck protection , they can go to polic there are already law for it."

This is a little bit serious u know as the whistle blower will be under enormous pressure from the other party and owing to the seriousness of the case could also be under mortal danger. Giving protection would also ensure that the witness doesn't change his stance midway making a mockery of the whole process.

On Scope u say "agree with govt , lower level corruption should be handled at local level , different agencies should investigate different case base on the level of experties required"

I tend to agree in one way and not in another with u. In a way the Lokpal shouldn't take too much burden on itself negating its supposed usefulness and true, which means at present it shouldn't. However in future it should take on all types of cases.

The rest of the points i will get back to u.

 

[Tripathy]

Crackdown does not mean using police brute force!

Oh...which dictionary u r following? Definitely, Indian media dictionary...

 

[indushek]

You seem to be deliberately misconstruing my argument. I have only said that I support a separate institution to deal with the judiciary & not bring it under Lokpal for the reasons I have stated. You have no explanation for what your opposition to a separate institution is. Just chanting Lokpal, Lokpal like a mantra is not necessarily a panacea for all our ills.

Perhaps i wasn't conveying myself well in previous posts so i am giving the same reply i gave to luckky and see ur reaction. I am not at all misconstruing ur argument. Infact i too have my doubts on the end result of this exercise as it is common everywhere that the work when started and ended does look different due to surrounding circumstances. Now about my explanation here it goes:

Now my argument is that if the Judiciary is not going to be investigated by Lokpal then an Individual body another entity will do this. We will have persons with legal knowledge there too as they do better i hope u agree on this. In what way will Lokpal hinder judiciary and this new body will not?? Let us take the case of an ongoing trial where people see that the Judge is not behaving impartially do u mean to say that still the Judiciary shouldn't be stopped from its course of action? I am not a legal person i don't know if the legal proceedings will be stopped and the Judge will be changed midway but if this is allowable then it should be stopped isn't it. If it can't be then proceedings should be brought against the Judge atleast after the case is completed the one in which he is supposed to have behave improperly of his chair.

What is the proposed seperate entity for Judiciary and how is it different from Lokpal??

---------- Post added at 03:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 PM ----------

Thats why certain areas are excluded from JanLokpal..For ever other subject- there must be a body to watch over..

---------- Post added at 02:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 PM ----------



This is where i have reservations with janLokpal..Judiciary should be excluded from janlokpal ..

Yeah some with and some against, i would like to know the reason why u want it not to be brought under Lokpal??

 

[helpline11]

This is thing not we consider under any kind of satya greh,This is all doing for the nation and to remove the corruption in to the country... This Anshan is just like a way to encouraging peoples to grow up and have to start thinking for the nation...so this is thing is not attach with any indian economy...

 

[Tripathy]

Nope..Voting in parliament is much more consequential than an individual voting in elections.
We have several instances in the past when bribes were used to purchase MPs..(Incidently everytime it was congress who was the culprit )..Lokpal must have the authority to investigate the conduct of MPs in Parlament..

Last time it was Advani, Jaitley Sudhendra Kulkarni, Sohail Hindustani and IBN-LIVE cumbo which was trying to sell BJP MPs as prostitutes. By the way who will check the bribe issues in Lokpal (When there is division while taking decision)?

Parliament is supreme and Speaker is entrusted to take action against such circus. When we lack confidence on 543 people in parliament, how can we have faith in these 10/11 people with zero accountability?

If PMO has nothing to hide then its functioning will not be affected ..But If PMO itself is engaged in damaging activities then who is there to investigate ..?

It is not about PMO having anything to hide or not. Accusing PM is like asking the head of Cabinet and the instability in governance. Given the way the immature media dances to every CAG report, the Govt. will not be taking decision, it will be in the permanent fire fight mode.

Why the PM was allowed to kill a person while his cavalcade was passing through the road...why the PM is not speaking to media? why the PM challenge opposition? Every evening there will be media circus and people will be asking for his head. PM is the face of the nation and given the medias cynical nature they will be ready to tarnish the face just for TRP.

Govt. stance basically means that CBI will remain in its grip..while Janlokpal bill wants every investigative agency to be free from any govt. intervention..
Cant see the problem with JanLokpal..

They want the CBI under them. The basic fundamental of jan lokpal is centralization of power. It wants all the power under one roof and that is jan lokpal. What a ridiculous proposition this is that we are being convinced that "You should not believe 543 elected PMs, but 10/12 people." This is the height of knee jerk reaction..

 

[Tripathy]

This is thing not we consider under any kind of satya greh,This is all doing for the nation and to remove the corruption in to the country... This Anshan is just like a way to encouraging peoples to grow up and have to start thinking for the nation...so this is thing is not attach with any indian economy...

You are proposing as if there is a man called Corruption and Jan lokpal is coming to prosecute that man. Corruption is a way of life and bigger than any religion in India. People live and die for religion but for corruption they never want to die. Anna is not the firs and lst person who is talking about corruption. Mahatma did, JP did, VP. Singh did...what happened? Tjose who came out of the JP movement are one of the most corrupt lot.

 

[Nitin Goyal]

Tihar Jail staff kids lend helping hand, quench parched throats


NEW DELHI: Didi, here's water for you all." It was a boon in the sweltering heat, when a bottle of chilled water was shoved between the bars of a narrow window at the main gate of Tihar Jail to thousands of Anna supporters camping outside the jail gate. As one bottle was quickly gulped down, eager hands pushed in more water bottles.

A huge relief for those standing in the heat for hours. This group of young helpers were children of the Tihar Jail staff, eager to help and be part of the movement spearheaded by Anna. The small gesture was appreciated by hundreds of tired and thirsty protesters. "Some in the group were elderly and haven't eaten anything for hours. Small gestures like these will keep the morale high," said Geeta, one of the volunteers who had shown up outside the jail.

The children, who had just come back from school, headed straight to the main gate of the jail, where most of the protesters were waiting outside. "Homework ab raat ko karenge. Abhi yahaan Anna ko humari zarurat hai (We will do our homework at night. Right now, Anna needs us)" said 12-year-old Pushpit, while taking back an empty bottle of water that he would then run to his house and refill. The group of children, in the age-group of nine and fourteen, eager to do their bit for the movement, clamoured at the entrance of the Tihar gate, while protesters on the other side continued to chant slogans.

In a hastily-written note in Hindi, the kids scribbled - "Kyunki hum apne desh ko bhrashtachaar se mukt karaana chahte hai aur Anna Hazare ek aam aadmi hai, hum unki aawaaz ko sarkar tak pahauchana chahte hai." (Because we want to free our country of corruption and Anna is a common man, we want his protest to be heard by the government.)

These children, all students of a nearby private school, eagerly demanded being "put to work." "We want to help. We want to meet Anna. We want to join the protests but are on the other side of the gate. So please tell us what we can do," asked 13-year-old Himanshu.

These children said they had read about Anna and had been following his protest on TV. "We all want to do something too. He should not be in jail. We want to participate because he is a good person and fighting for our rights," chimed two nine-year-olds, Shweta and Neha.

Giggled some of the children, "On TV we heard the protesters saying "Yeh andar ki baat hai, police Anna ke saath hai (This is a secret, the police supports Anna) We are also with Anna. And we will be here on Thursday as well."

 

[Jade]

Okay, I am not commenting on the stupidity of the government in dealing with Anna Hazare but these are about a couple of disagreements on the Lokpal bill.

I believe that the Judiciary must not come under the perview of the Lokpal & must be brought under a separate Judiciary accountability Bill which needs to be tougher. The PM issue is more nuanced; can understand both sides of the argument but maybe we need to go with the safeguards put in, i.e. investigation after the PM leaves office. Not perfect but there are way too many issues that crop up. The only thing I agree with the Anna group is that the anti-corruption wing of the CBI must be transferred to the Lokpal since it will become redundant anyway.

It is true that Anna’s draft has loopholes, but the government’s draft is toothless.

Anyway, the issue is now different. Government has no right to curtail the right of a person for peaceful protest. I believe right to protest is the essence of any democracy.