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Jan Lokapl Bill


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then anna hajare will do another anshan against lokpal if lokpal not filling a case against a person..

i think this country looking for a dictater like anna hajare then parliament , constitution or a lokpal...



I have to agree with you. My thinking has always been we needed someone like Bose to dictate and set our ppl and country right before introducing democracy. The chinese feel the same way. After seeing how much th British meddle in foreign affairs of every country, can be so foolish to think that they would leave India without placing ppl in their interest in positions of power?

---------- Post added at 03:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:56 AM ----------

Buddy i think its you who is missing the entire thing. While the bloody government wants a toothless lokpal under their control Anna and others want a stronger Lokpal. If u would care to search for this on Wiki the main differences in a snapshot and in detail are given there like an answer in schools or colleges where the differences are outlined, like giving a peeled banana to everybody. Read it understand it and then comment man.


Could you give me a link so I can read it. I want to print it, and out it on flyers and disribute. This is what the youth should be doing.
 
I am for the court because corruption has shown itself in the court system and judges. But I agree the PMO is controversial. I am not sure how it will work out. Also, do you know of any possible instances of corruption in PMO? I have heard stories of Rao but not sure. Sry if I was rude. I get so emotional regarding issues that affect all our ppl. Could you tell me what postions are in the PMO besides PM? maybe that would give us a better idea. Maybe the PM can be exempt but the other cabinet positions could be brought under. The problem I see is that under our political system, we would have accustation thrown all day be either parties, simply to stall gov;t. So, make the penalty for bringing up false charges death and act on it immediately. Don;t allow appeals, like Afzal where it will be dragged for decades. Lead by example. I remember reading a book by Andrew jackson who stated judges in any court should only serve a maximum of 5-7 yrs. It is not in anyone's interest to have a judge serve lifelong. Even though the States has not heeded that advice, I think India should take that into consideration. Make gov;t work for Indians. Put a "desi" spin on it. Own it, make our democracy, OUR DEMOCRACY!

The PM case is actually simpler; just a matter of difference in perception. The Judiciary is a completely different kettle of fish. In any case, there is a high chance that the Judiciary will most likely strike down any law bringing it under the Lokpal on constitutional grounds. It really doesn't matter. How does it make any difference whether there is a Lokpal or a separate committee under the Judicial accountability Bill looking at judges. Surely, no one is arguing that only the Lokpal is honest & every other person(s) in this country is dishonest. Instead of having just one body, we must have parallel bodies looking after separate branches. No single institution can be given that much power.
 
The PM case is actually simpler; just a matter of difference in perception. The Judiciary is a completely different kettle of fish. In any case, there is a high chance that the Judiciary will most likely strike down any law bringing it under the Lokpal on constitutional grounds. It really doesn't matter. How does it make any difference whether there is a Lokpal or a separate committee under the Judicial accountability Bill looking at judges. Surely, no one is arguing that only the Lokpal is honest & every other person(s) in this country is dishonest. Instead of having just one body, we must have parallel bodies looking after separate branches. No single institution can be given that much power.

i agree ,


and the point is how you going to choice the lokpal...

or the anna will again do anshan to get his choice of man to be the lokpal...
 
No one is arguing that they should be. The point being debated is whether they should be under the Lokpal's ambit or under a different law being currently debated - the Judicial Accountability Bill (strengthened, because the present draft is pretty weak). No politician is going to bother about protecting the judiciary in any case.

The argument is whether putting judiciary in the Lokpal's ambit would compromise judicial independence since the very judge who would be deciding whether the Lokpal has a case against civil servants/politicians will also be under the perview of the very same Lokpal thereby opening him/her to the charge of being influenced by the Lokpal. The Lokpal can't both be a boss of the Judge & an applicant in front of the judge in the same court, A person charged by the Lokpal could then reasonably argue that he cannot get a free & fair trial if the Judge has to decide whether the Lokpal (his boss)has a case or not.

I am not trying to criticize you but i think your argument is ridiculous as per me. Have u gone to a local court ever or have a friend who is a practising lawyer or judge ?? Just speak to them about this bill and the ones who are not affected will openly support and those in power will not. The way bails are granted or witnesses are produced and the settlements happening will show the dirty ubderbelly of law. You would be surprised to know that lot of judges are corrupt!!!!! When the former head of Vigilance after retiring says that 2 out of 3 people are corrupt in India it should have been a wake up call for lot of people. I used to be criticizing the movie directors for showing corruption in an hyped up way for long time, only when i came to know of these from my acquaintances i understood that those i thought were hyped up were not that much hyped.

I think of all the powerful should be the first to be put under the ambit of Lokpal.
 
tell anna to put up a political party them...
presently anna hajare is secking authority without responsiblity that won't work for long....

The problem is, now there is a perception (also some facts) that the present government is full of corrupt people & they are not serious in bringing a strong lokpal.In contrast anna is fighting for a strong lokpal & make india free of corruption.I agree for a strong lokpal but dont support his fast unto death formula.its somekind of blackmailing.......
 
The problem is, now there is a perception (also some facts) that the present government is full of corrupt people & they are not serious in bringing a strong lokpal.In contrast anna is fighting for a strong lokpal & make india free of corruption.I agree for a strong lokpal but dont support his fast unto death formula.its somekind of blackmailing.......

what is a strong lokpal ? are we looking for a dictater or someone under the consitutional system...
 
let us first know from you what is the toothless lokpal and a stronger Lokpal....

I have to agree with you. My thinking has always been we needed someone like Bose to dictate and set our ppl and country right before introducing democracy. The chinese feel the same way. After seeing how much th British meddle in foreign affairs of every country, can be so foolish to think that they would leave India without placing ppl in their interest in positions of power?

---------- Post added at 03:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:56 AM ----------




Could you give me a link so I can read it. I want to print it, and out it on flyers and disribute. This is what the youth should be doing.

The link is here "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Lokpal_Bill" and luckky u can see below


The Jan Lokpal Bill [13]
Government's Lokpal Bill [14]

Prime Minister
Can be investigated with permission of seven member Lokpal bench.[11]
PM cannot be investigate by Lokpal.[15]

Judiciary
Can be investigated, though high level members may be investigated only with permission of a seven member Lokpal bench.[11]
Judiciary is exempt and will be covered by a separate "judicial accountability bill".[12]

MPs
Can be investigated with permission of seven member Lokpal bench.[11]
Can be investigated, but their conduct within Pariliament, such as voting, cannot be investigated.[12]

Lower bureaucracy All public servants would be included.[12]
Only Group A officers will be covered.[12]

CBI
The CBI will be merged into the Lokpal.[12]
The CBI will remain a separate agency.[11]

Removal of Lokpal members and Chair Any person can bring a complaint to the Supreme Court, who can then recommend removal of any member to the President.[11]
Any "aggrieved party" can raise a complaint to the President, who will refer the matter to the CJI.[11]

Removal of Lokpal staff and officers Complaints against Lokpal staff will be handled by independent boards set-up in each state, composed of retired bureaucrats, judges, and civil society members.[11]
Lokpal will conduct inquiries into its own behavior.[11]

Lokayukta
Lokakyukta and other local/state anti-corruption agency would remain in place.[12]
All state anti-corruption agencies would be closed and responsibilities taken over by centralized Lokpal.[12]

Whistleblower protection
Whistleblowers are protected law.[11]
No protection granted to whistleblowers.[11]

Punishment for corruption Lokpal can either directly impose penalties, or refer the matter to the courts. Penalties can include removal from office, imprisonment, and recovery of assets from those who benefited from the corruption.[11]
Lokpal can only refer matters to the courts, not take any direct punitive actions. Penalties remain equivalent to those in current law.[11]

Investigatory powers Lokpal can obtain wiretaps, issue rogatory letters, and recruit investigating officers. Cannot issue contempt orders.[11]
Lokpal can issue contempt orders, and has the ability to punish those in contempt. No authority to obtain wiretaps, issue rogatory letters, or recruit investigating officers.[11]

False, frivolous and vexatious complaints Lokpal can issue fines for frivolous complaints (including frivolous complaints against Lokpal itself), with a maximum penalty of 1 lakh.[11].
Court system will handle matters of frivolous complaints. Courts can issue fines of Rs25,000 to 2 lakh.[11]

Scope All corruption can be investigated.[12]
Only high-level corruption can be investigated.[12]

The first point outlines the popular stand and the second Governments.
 
what is a strong lokpal ? are we looking for a dictater or someone under the consitutional system...

No..We are looking for a body which is free to investigate any case of corruption brought to its notice or, suo motto without government intervention...
 
I am not trying to criticize you but i think your argument is ridiculous as per me. Have u gone to a local court ever or have a friend who is a practising lawyer or judge ?? Just speak to them about this bill and the ones who are not affected will openly support and those in power will not. The way bails are granted or witnesses are produced and the settlements happening will show the dirty ubderbelly of law. You would be surprised to know that lot of judges are corrupt!!!!! When the former head of Vigilance after retiring says that 2 out of 3 people are corrupt in India it should have been a wake up call for lot of people. I used to be criticizing the movie directors for showing corruption in an hyped up way for long time, only when i came to know of these from my acquaintances i understood that those i thought were hyped up were not that much hyped.

I think of all the powerful should be the first to be put under the ambit of Lokpal.

Why ridiculous? I have never said that they should not be hauled up, only said that they should not be put within the Lokpal's ambit. The Judicial accountability bill does the same thing as the Lokpal except it is a separate body which looks only at the Judiciary. The Supreme Court will most probably strike down any legislation seeking to put it within the Lokpal's ambit. This is not my position, it is pretty much the position of a majority of jurists. Even Santosh Hegde has come around to the idea of leaving out the Judiciary & the PM from the Lokpal's ambit.
 
The problem is, now there is a perception (also some facts) that the present government is full of corrupt people & they are not serious in bringing a strong lokpal.In contrast anna is fighting for a strong lokpal & make india free of corruption.I agree for a strong lokpal but dont support his fast unto death formula.its somekind of blackmailing.......
Your point about blackmailing is not entirely true in this case. Representing popular opinion is not blackmail and if it is Mahatma Gandhi was the world's biggest blackmailer. But I have a simple question. How often has the government buckled to a fast unto death? Remember Ms. Irom Sharmila Chanu who has been on 'fast-unto-death' for the past nine years demanding withdrawal of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act 1958 from Manipur??? She is being force fed through a tube by the govt!!! What stopped the government fromdoing the same to Anna?? The fact that it is undeniably on the wrong side this time around. It cannot talk it's way out of this. The people have spoken.
 
Those people who are exempted from the Lok Pal that the UPA is trying to pass is the very reason that the system is like hell.
A IPS officer earns 5laks in his juristirction per month and the money becomes black money and in such a way so is the Judiciary and the PM. it is said that signing one commodity to be imported yields the minister more than 10crore in black money from the exporter.
Jan Lok Pal is what the people need and LokPal is the UPA's way to save the system of corupt.
 
what is a strong lokpal ? are we looking for a dictater or someone under the consitutional system...


Yesterday in an interview i saw bhushan saying that the lokpal is accountable to the supreme court.Any person can approach the supreme court to get a member of lokpal removed if he found guilty.so lokpal cant be a dictator like thing.personaly i dont think the lokpal will end corruption.when it comes to making a law we are good but implementing it is our weaker side .......
 
The link is here "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Lokpal_Bill" and luckky u can see below


The Jan Lokpal Bill [13]

Government's Lokpal Bill [14]

Prime Minister
Can be investigated with permission of seven member Lokpal bench.[11]
PM cannot be investigate by Lokpal.[15]

Judiciary
Can be investigated, though high level members may be investigated only with permission of a seven member Lokpal bench.[11]
Judiciary is exempt and will be covered by a separate "judicial accountability bill".[12]

MPs
Can be investigated with permission of seven member Lokpal bench.[11]
Can be investigated, but their conduct within Pariliament, such as voting, cannot be investigated.[12]

Lower bureaucracy All public servants would be included.[12]
Only Group A officers will be covered.[12]

CBI
The CBI will be merged into the Lokpal.[12]
The CBI will remain a separate agency.[11]

Removal of Lokpal members and Chair Any person can bring a complaint to the Supreme Court, who can then recommend removal of any member to the President.[11]
Any "aggrieved party" can raise a complaint to the President, who will refer the matter to the CJI.[11]

Removal of Lokpal staff and officers Complaints against Lokpal staff will be handled by independent boards set-up in each state, composed of retired bureaucrats, judges, and civil society members.[11]
Lokpal will conduct inquiries into its own behavior.[11]

Lokayukta
Lokakyukta and other local/state anti-corruption agency would remain in place.[12]
All state anti-corruption agencies would be closed and responsibilities taken over by centralized Lokpal.[12]

Whistleblower protection
Whistleblowers are protected law.[11]
No protection granted to whistleblowers.[11]

Punishment for corruption Lokpal can either directly impose penalties, or refer the matter to the courts. Penalties can include removal from office, imprisonment, and recovery of assets from those who benefited from the corruption.[11]
Lokpal can only refer matters to the courts, not take any direct punitive actions. Penalties remain equivalent to those in current law.[11]

Investigatory powers Lokpal can obtain wiretaps, issue rogatory letters, and recruit investigating officers. Cannot issue contempt orders.[11]
Lokpal can issue contempt orders, and has the ability to punish those in contempt. No authority to obtain wiretaps, issue rogatory letters, or recruit investigating officers.[11]

False, frivolous and vexatious complaints Lokpal can issue fines for frivolous complaints (including frivolous complaints against Lokpal itself), with a maximum penalty of 1 lakh.[11].
Court system will handle matters of frivolous complaints. Courts can issue fines of Rs25,000 to 2 lakh.[11]

Scope All corruption can be investigated.[12]
Only high-level corruption can be investigated.[12]

The first point outlines the popular stand and the second Governments.



Holy ****!!! The gov;t version is not just watered down it SUCKS> What is the reason for not granting whistle blower protection. The states made a big stink about this as well under Bush. Any ideas why?
 
Why ridiculous? I have never said that they should not be hauled up, only said that they should not be put within the Lokpal's ambit. The Judicial accountability bill does the same thing as the Lokpal except it is a separate body which looks only at the Judiciary. The Supreme Court will most probably strike down any legislation seeking to put it within the Lokpal's ambit. This is not my position, it is pretty much the position of a majority of jurists. Even Santosh Hegde has come around to the idea of leaving out the Judiciary & the PM from the Lokpal's ambit.

Well my friend the reason i called you explanation ridiculous was for the same reason i talked of above, the judiciary has already become corrupt along with other institutions. However the serious thing here is at last everybody have to come to the court only for justice and if the judiciary is not under the ambit of Lokpal then these judges will find ways to beat it easily. It can be done even under Lokpal also i agree as man is known for his innovation, but the chances would be slim. May be after 2 to 3 decades wwhen the system is cleansed of bad blood may be then the bill could be revised. But at present it is necessary, Santhosh Hegde might be trying trade points so that atleast some of theirs could be included or may be he as a lawyer feels for others :P
 

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