Anatomy of the Hatf-VIII Ra’ad Air Launched Cruise Missile

[denel]

Since the prospect of big-ticket items in the near-term is nil, I hope we concentrate what resources we have to munitions development. I think there's a big lesson to learn from South Africa here in concentrating on R&D and maximize the JF-17's utility through new missiles and glide bombs.

One starting point could be to revive South Africa's ramjet R&D (in both SA and Pakistan) to create a new-gen BVRAAM and a lightweight ALCM/AShM. You might not have the fanciest fighters, but hey, 150 jets capable of deploying a Ra'ad Lite ALCM, supersonic-cruising AShM and ALCM, a Meteor-like BVRAAM, a HOBS AAM, and a plethora of other gliding SOWs and tactical missiles (e.g., ARMs, Brimstone-like AGMs, etc) could work...

@denel Do you recall the Long Range Tactical Missile (LRTM) program?

Yes i do.

 

[JamD]

Since the prospect of big-ticket items in the near-term is nil, I hope we concentrate what resources we have to munitions development. I think there's a big lesson to learn from South Africa here in concentrating on R&D and maximize the JF-17's utility through new missiles and glide bombs.

One starting point could be to revive South Africa's ramjet R&D (in both SA and Pakistan) to create a new-gen BVRAAM and a lightweight ALCM/AShM. You might not have the fanciest fighters, but hey, 150 jets capable of deploying a Ra'ad Lite ALCM, supersonic-cruising AShM and ALCM, a Meteor-like BVRAAM, a HOBS AAM, and a plethora of other gliding SOWs and tactical missiles (e.g., ARMs, Brimstone-like AGMs, etc) could work...
?

Agreed.

Also, at the risk of being tinder to the fanboy flames: I was pleasantly surprised to find out that there is work on solid fuel ramjets being carried out locally. It sounded in its very early stages (simulations and feasibilities) but is definitely there. Could be a product in 10 years. Could fizzle out too.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Agreed.

Also, at the risk of being tinder to the fanboy flames: I was pleasantly surprised to find out that there is work on solid fuel ramjets being carried out locally. It sounded in its very early stages (simulations and feasibilities) but is definitely there. Could be a product in 10 years. Could fizzle out too.

It's not easy, but I imagine miniature air breathing engines (we need both ramjet and subsonic turbofans) should be much more attainable than a fighter-grade powerplant.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

I'm asking because I don't know. Is there a local engine in Pakistan for Ra'ad and similar derivative missiles? @Quwa

 

[S.Y.A]

And WHAT METHODS do you think US has adopted to learn about about Chinese and/or Russian military experiments?

Simple, educated guess. and since US is the pioneer in most technologies, electronics included, their educated guesses are quite close to the real thing. because they understand the capabilities, strengths and short comings of nearly every material. a simple case of "been there, done that". People seem to forget that US is US.

 

[Safriz]

The Future
Having discussed what the Ra’ad is, let’s move to what Ra’ad could or should become.

1. Depending on whether the PAF prefers to carry a single Ra’ad on the centerline hardpoint or two on the wing hardpoints I propose the following easy modifications to reduce the height/width of the missile when mounted.

View attachment 313925

2. Develop Ra’ad Lite (as suggested by @Quwa). Reduce the payload to 300 kg and everything else should reduce accordingly. This should be a more manageable size for an ALCM with JF-17.

3. If it is absolutely vital for the strategic planners that an ALCM with a 450 kg payload be carried by a JF-17 then add artificial stability using drag devices and an advanced control system. This is what is done for ‘tail-less’ aircraft like the B-2 Spirit and numerous UCAVs. This is an expensive and long-term option that will also give AWC some additional expertise in differential braking that should prove useful in future UAV/UCAV development. Unfortunately, this will be expensive and require a complex control system with a drag penalty incurred by differential braking.
View attachment 313923

Conclusion
In its current form the Ra’ad ALCM cannot be carried by the JF-17 according to my analysis. Fortunately some modifications may allow the JF-17 to carry the Ra’ad which I have described. Some of the modifications I have suggested are simple to implement and it is upto the PAF higher command on how far they want to let the Ra’ad evolve before going for a new ALCM altogether.

@MastanKhan @Tempest II

Hi,
Looks like PAF listened to you. The new Raad-2 has no a sideways jutting rear wings and seems narrower.

 

[JamD]

Hi,
Looks like PAF listened to you. The new Raad-2 has no a sideways jutting rear wings and seems narrower.

They took the logical next step. Which is always good news.

 

[Safriz]

They took the logical next step. Which is always good news.

Can you do a similar exercise with raad-2 on JF-17 as you did with raad-1 on JF-17?

Here are some enhanced screenshot of actual missile and a model shown in ispr video. The trace was done by @graphican

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...-missile-raad-ii.653750/page-21#post-12151592

 

[JamD]

Can you do a similar exercise with raad-2 on JF-17 as you did with raad-1 on JF-17?

Here are some enhanced screenshot of actual missile and a model shown in ispr video. The trace was done by @graphican

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...-missile-raad-ii.653750/page-21#post-12151592

I've actually been meaning to do this. Unfortunately I am unable due to two big reasons:
1. Crazy workload.
2. Not enough information and pictures. I had a lot to go by for the original article.

As soon as more information and pictures become available and I am able to find time I will certainly write an article on this.

 

[Safriz]

I've actually been meaning to do this. Unfortunately I am unable due to two big reasons:
1. Crazy workload.
2. Not enough information and pictures. I had a lot to go by for the original article.

As soon as more information and pictures become available and I am able to find time I will certainly write an article on this.

Hi,
Whenever you want to do that.
I can suggest following.
There are clear enough pictures of mirage with the missile.
So if a size comparison between the missile and mirage can be done, and a size comparison between thunder and mirage can be done, by extrapolation a size comparison between missile and thunder can be done pretty accurate.

 

[Safriz]

The Future
Having discussed what the Ra’ad is, let’s move to what Ra’ad could or should become.

1. Depending on whether the PAF prefers to carry a single Ra’ad on the centerline hardpoint or two on the wing hardpoints I propose the following easy modifications to reduce the height/width of the missile when mounted.

View attachment 313925

2. Develop Ra’ad Lite (as suggested by @Quwa). Reduce the payload to 300 kg and everything else should reduce accordingly. This should be a more manageable size for an ALCM with JF-17.

3. If it is absolutely vital for the strategic planners that an ALCM with a 450 kg payload be carried by a JF-17 then add artificial stability using drag devices and an advanced control system. This is what is done for ‘tail-less’ aircraft like the B-2 Spirit and numerous UCAVs. This is an expensive and long-term option that will also give AWC some additional expertise in differential braking that should prove useful in future UAV/UCAV development. Unfortunately, this will be expensive and require a complex control system with a drag penalty incurred by differential braking.
View attachment 313923

Conclusion
In its current form the Ra’ad ALCM cannot be carried by the JF-17 according to my analysis. Fortunately some modifications may allow the JF-17 to carry the Ra’ad which I have described. Some of the modifications I have suggested are simple to implement and it is upto the PAF higher command on how far they want to let the Ra’ad evolve before going for a new ALCM altogether.

@MastanKhan @Tempest II

Reviving this 4 year old thread.
The width of Raad 2 is smaller than Raad-1.
So the width problem is solved.
However the weight although unknown may be same or higher than Raad-1.
What's the maximum weight Thunder's inner pylons can carry?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Reviving this 4 year old thread.
The width of Raad 2 is smaller than Raad-1.
So the width problem is solved.
However the weight although unknown may be same or higher than Raad-1.
What's the maximum weight Thunder's inner pylons can carry?

We know the inner pylons can take 459 kg Mk83s and 800 kg C-802As, but those are still light compared to a KEPD 350-class ALCM (1,400 kg).

If there's a weight issue, it should be less of a constraint in the JF-17B and Block-III, which are reportedly capable of carrying 925 kg Mk84s.

 

[Safriz]

We know the inner pylons can take 459 kg Mk83s and 800 kg C-802As, but those are still light compared to a KEPD 350-class ALCM (1,400 kg).

If there's a weight issue, it should be less of a constraint in the JF-17B and Block-III, which are reportedly capable of carrying 925 kg Mk84s.

But we have also seen the 900+ kg CM400AKG being carried on inside pylons of Thunder Block II.

So if there's an improvement in weight carrying capacity of single pylon,on Block III and B variant, then it must be above that of the weight of CM400AKG

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

But we have also seen the 900+ kg CM400AKG being carried on inside pylons of Thunder Block II.

So if there's an improvement in weight carrying capacity of single pylon,on Block III and B variant, then it must be above that of the weight of CM400AKG

You're right.

I think it's reasonable to bet that the JF-17B/Block-III can carry 2 Ra'ad II.

Not a coincidence that the PAF solved the most obvious issue/obstacle preventing the JF-17 from carrying the Ra'ad in the first place (replace horizontal stabilizers with new compact tail-stock).

 

[Safriz]

You're right.

I think it's reasonable to bet that the JF-17B/Block-III can carry 2 Ra'ad II.

Not a coincidence that the PAF solved the most obvious issue/obstacle preventing the JF-17 from carrying the Ra'ad in the first place (replace horizontal stabilizers with new compact tail-stock).

Thats what i am speculating. Until now there was no point in developing a new version of Raad as other than Mirages, no other PAF jet could carry them.
To make a new sleek version must have more reasons than just an increase in range.
Probably another type of PAF aircraft can also carry Raad now.
However ths new Raad-2 looks a bit longer than Raad-1, but slimmer.
In my estimation the length of Raad-2 is 5.4 meters.
According to @JamD estimation Raad-1 is 4.88 meters long. So thats a 50 Cm increase in length for the new Raad-2.