Analysis: Will India’s S-400 missiles checkmate Pakistan?

[Immortan.Joe]

If Pakistan could easily be divided in half then india would have attacked us after mumbai 26/11/2008. Each time Pakistsn has fought india we were up against an enemy 8 times our size who has the full backing of the west and Russia and has abundant access (via the west and Russia) to the world's best and advanced high tech weapons. These are odds that even israel and america would not be able to or would really struggle to overcome. Yet the Pakistan race continues to survive and thrive despite the odds massively against us.

Delusions galore.

India was only 4.5 times larger than Pakistan until 1971 war. So not even once was India eight times that of Pakistan in any war. We invaded and divided you in two when balance of power was much less in favour of us then it is today, and in times when your "daddy" Nixon was supporting you lock, stock, and barrel, to the extent of sending its Aircraft carrier against India along with its pet poodle Britain's carrier in tow.

 

[WhyCry]

People are not realizing this but S-400 systems would disrupt the strategic balance in the subcontinent region. It surprises me that Russia would sell S-400 systems to India without focusing on its implications for the subcontinent at large.

Please explain how? I am not sure you know but India already has S300.

 

[Hamza913]

Where Do you generating this Data ??? Source of your Retard claim


MiGs over Kargil: How the Fulcrum buzzed the Falcons
https://in.rbth.com/articles/2013/01/16/migs_over_kargil_how_the_fulcrum_buzzed_the_falcons_21659

Yeah Where was Superior airforce When IAF Raining Hell on NLI Soilders on Kargil valley.IAF Spends more on its Logistics And Maintenance than whole PAF Operational R&D Budget Combined

http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/...l-was-a-big-success-militarily-for-pak-46.asp

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-sh...mes-453-men-killed-in-kargil-war/20101118.htm

These quotes prove my points about casualties, and our Air Force did not get involved yet India STILL lost fighter jets and helicopters. You have the same problem as the Arabs. Poor training.

 

[WhyCry]

Where was S-400 and S-500 when Turkish brothers shot down Russian fighter jets in November 2015? The Russians were humiliated and can't do nothing about it. Russians are only good at fighting alcoholic Ukrainians.

Man this is height of stupidity. So I need to show some.

The S400 and S500(which is in development) were installed on the plane but failed deploy since they it got to know that they were defending against pakistan biradar mulak.

 

[mkb95]

If Pakistan could easily be divided in half then india would have attacked us after mumbai 26/11/2008. Each time Pakistsn has fought india we were up against an enemy 8 times our size who has the full backing of the west and Russia and has abundant access (via the west and Russia) to the world's best and advanced high tech weapons. These are odds that even israel and america would not be able to or would really struggle to overcome. Yet the Pakistan race continues to survive and thrive despite the odds massively against us.

wait what?
since when west supported us during any wars?but they DID supported you by giving u more advance systems,even sending aircraft carrier against us.
west support to us is fairly recent.

 

[Immortan.Joe]

There is only one solution to this and that is to go stealth or atleast get SU-35s.

Off topic: I have few questions here.
1: There is embargo on selling 300+ km range missiles so does this only hold for S2S missile systems? Seeing sale of S-400 to China and now India it seems this embargo does not hold good for SAM system.
2: It is general perception that Nato aircraft can not fire on friendlies due to IFF codes to be same, Is this a fact or just a myth? If true then does this provision holds good for Russian equipment?
3: PAF's basic doctrine is defensive so wud it be advisable to go for equally potent SAM system only?
4: If there is code of conduct for friendly IFF in Russia then wud S-400s be identifying Russian origin aircraft as hostiles when deemed?

This is one point that confuses people a lot. The Missile Technology Control Regime does embargo the sale of missiles with ranges greater then 300+km, as the 40N6 missile does - the only missile of an S-400 system with a range greater then 300km:

But only if they also carry a payload of 500kg or greater, which none of the S-400's missiles do. It's also mainly for offensive missiles:

The MTCR was created in order to curb the spread of unmanned delivery systems for nuclear weapons, specifically delivery systems that could carry a minimum payload of 500 kg a minimum of 300 km.

So this actually doesn't go against the MTCR, though even if it did, the Russians and Chinese are known for not caring about the repercussions anyway.



It's a myth. There have been blue-on-blue kills before. Good battlefield awareness and coordination keeps NATO forces from targeting each other.

Actually MTCR bans export of any missile that could carry more than 500 Kg payload or could hit a target beyond 300Km.

But its category I item list does not include SAM, so there would be not legal problem for Russia in exporting S-400 to India.

Read page 17 of MTCR guidelines. http://www.mtcr.info/english/MTCR-TEM-Technical_Annex_2015-10-08_Current_version.pdf

 

[JohnyD]

In Kargil they lost several fighter jets even though the PAF was never involved.

As for who is superior, the IAF is one of the worst trained Air Forces in the world. We can handle them.

PAF was not involved for any reason? I dont believe they wanted to do some favor on IAF...do you?.......what could be the reason? now that Mushy has openly accepted the responsibility of Kargil mis-adventure why didn't he get his air force in action?

 

[NKVD]

http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/...l-was-a-big-success-militarily-for-pak-46.asp

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-sh...mes-453-men-killed-in-kargil-war/20101118.htm

These quotes prove my points about casualties, and our Air Force did not get involved yet India STILL lost fighter jets and helicopters. You have the same problem as the Arabs. Poor training.

Really that's All official Figures remember Your Army did not Excepted the Bodies of your own Soldiers for years and was in denial that it Was Mujaheeds who took Kargil heights

Musharraf suppressed Facts From Pakistani Public Like he Hide Kargil Plan From then Govt in rule & PM Sharif

Listen to what Nawaz sharif Said
However, he said, a “naive military adventurer, Gen Musharraf,” launched the operation without proper planning on May 8, 1999 causing loss of life of 3,000 officers and Jawans of the Northern Light Infantry (NLI) and Kashmiri Mujahideen, while India suffered loss of 474 soldiers.

http://www.dawn.com/news/204768/pml-n-issues-white-paper-on-kargil-war


Here what Former federal minister Lt-Gen (retd) Abdul Majeed Malik, who is an eyewitness to major happenings that took place during the tenure of the second Nawaz Sharif government, says the Kargil operation of Pervez Musharraf was badly conceived, faultily executed and totally unneeded.


Source: https://defence.pk/threads/kargil-w...claims-gen-majeed-malik.218995/#ixzz46NyDIKCl
https://defence.pk/threads/kargil-war-was-a-total-disaster-claims-gen-majeed-malik.218995/

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

I would advise to to read the previous war back in 1965, 1971. You should be able to know what I am saying.

Don't give foolish references for why, what and where it did not happen. Please stick to your facts.

As for the facts, Pakistan has been under the thumb of the west from Day 2 (since pakistan itself gave them-self freedom a day before British could). Well they were warned by the west not to push for Kashmir in 1965 (and rather warned) and cease-fire was called on behest of Russia. In 1971, the west come to save the day but was late as the party. Just to give food for thought (for brain and not chest), pakistan and its people are barely surviving but army is continuously thriving.

The americans really helped Pakistan in the 1971 war. We were fighting an enemy 8 times our size and they halted all supplies to us of fighter jets, tanks, spare parts etc. Some help that was.

Contrary to indian myth and propaganda the ground reality of Pakistan is way different to some bollywood fantasies. Came back from Pakistan 4 months ago and the infrastructure and industrial projects going on there are something Pakistan has never ever seen before nor did I ever think I would see in my lifetime. Infrastructure wise, Pakistan has progressed immensely since the 90s. The people are also more prosperous and independent.

 

[Freyja]

Actually MTCR bans export of any missile that could carry more than 500 Kg payload or could hit a target beyond 300Km.

But its category I item list does not include SAM, so there would be not legal problem for Russia in exporting S-400 to India.

Read page 17 of MTCR guidelines. http://www.mtcr.info/english/MTCR-TEM-Technical_Annex_2015-10-08_Current_version.pdf

Are you sure? Because looking at the PDF is says X payload for X range. This a screen capture of page 17 from the PDF:

It doesn't say "or". It says "payload of at least X to distance of Y".

Teh Chinese claim that they will get 40N6E which can intercept ballistic missile up to 185km, basically space.

That's likely true too. But I don't believe that capability is yet operational. I'm not sure if it's part of S-400, but know it's an emerging capability on S-500.

Right now the large missiles are operationally used to target larger aircraft - bombers, tankers, AWACS and is known as an "AWACS-killer" - in the same way the CM-400 is a "Carrier-killer" but can be used to target anything afloat.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Delusions galore.

India was only 4.5 times larger than Pakistan until 1971 war. So not even once was India eight times that of Pakistan in any war. We invaded and divided you in two when balance of power was much less in favour of us then it is today, and in times when your "daddy" Nixon was supporting you lock, stock, and barrel, to the extent of sending its Aircraft carrier against India along with its pet poodle Britain's carrier in tow.

Lol at only 5 times bigger. Think that's BS. Defeating a nation that is at least 7 times smaller than you is something to be proud of?.......lol. That implies severe insecurity and inferiority complex. bangladesh becoming a diifetent nation was inevitable as they were 1000s of kms away from us and belonged to a different race, genetic background, culture and hetitage compared to real Pakistani people. They were never and could never be a part of us. india simply exploited that fact. Nothing else. Infact indians and bengalis are very similar to one another that's why you both worked well together.

wait what?
since when west supported us during any wars?but they DID supported you by giving u more advance systems,even sending aircraft carrier against us.
west support to us is fairly recent.

The west HAS NEVER supported Pakistan really. A few token weapons here and there never really helped. They just needed a few air bases to spy on the Soviet Union. That's all. The americans were scheduled to have their aircraft carrier in the indian ocean for military exercises months before the 1971 war. It was mere coincidence.

 

[WhyCry]

The americans really helped Pakistan in the 1971 war. We were fighting an enemy 8 times our size and they halted all supplies to us of fighter jets, tanks, spare parts etc. Some help that was.

Contrary to indian myth and propaganda the ground reality of Pakistan is way different to some bollywood fantasies. Came back from Pakistan 4 months ago and the infrastructure and industrial projects going on there are something Pakistan has never ever seen before nor did I ever think I would see in my lifetime. Infrastructure wise, Pakistan has progressed immensely since the 90s. The people are also more prosperous and independent.

I am happy to see you back to be rational and I agree with most of it if not all.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Was S-400 deployed in Turkey when they shot down Su-24 of Russia?






Though @gulfi could not tolerate truth and ,being shameless (and weak in maths at same time) gave me a negative rating, I would reiterate again that India was only 4.5 larger than Pakistan before 1972.

You people should start going to proper schools for learning basic maths.

Okay then. India is 8 times bigger then Pakistan now and is supposed to have a powerful military yet you would not dare attack Pakistan after mumbai 26/11/2008. Perhaps bangladesh 1971 was more important to the indian leadership then indian citizens in mumbai 2008?

 

[Immortan.Joe]

Are you sure? Because looking at the PDF is says X payload for X range. This a screen capture of page 17 from the PDF:

View attachment 302908

It doesn't say "or". It says "payload or at least X to distance of Y".



That's likely true too. But I don't believe that capability is yet operational. I'm not sure if it's part of S-400, but know it's an emerging capability on S-500.

Right now the large missiles are operationally used to target larger aircraft - bombers, tankers, AWACS and is known as an "AWACS-killer" - in the same way the CM-400 is a "Carrier-killer" but can be used to target anything afloat.

Yes it is true.

The way it is worded, it means "or". If you notice, the word "at least" is used before both payload and range separately, which means that both of those parameters have been treated as discrete entities thus in-effect making it either 500 Kg or 300 Km.

 

[Spectre]

Truth is that the 2 state policy is based on RACE. Jinnah could not say this in 1947, 2 years after WW2 and the NAZI onslaught. Was not PC to mention race.

So are you from a superior stock? I have extremely unkind words to say here but then it would probably just wash off you.

@Oscar is this is level of discourse permitted? Insulting and abusing India and Indians is one thing, most of us take it as given but insulting your own founding father - that is indeed something to behold.

@Armstrong I always thought it was the diet which separated us.