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Amnesty International on Kulbushan Jadhav: Pakistan military court violates international standards

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I would like to invite some international folks as well as some distinguished members to the discussion:

@Joe Shearer @gambit @Vergennes @Penguin @soloman2
Why? What do you want us to look at / comment on?

Where is Amnesty international on:

1. Genocide and atrocities in Kashmir by state forces.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/asia-and-the-pacific/india/
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/asia-and-the-pacific/india/report-india/

2. Guantanamo prison.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/security-and-human-rights/guantanamo
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/guantanamo-bay-human-rights
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/01/usa-close-guant-namo-and-end-human-rights-hypocrisy/
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2012/01/guantanamo-decade-damage-human-rights/

3. Genocide of Syrians
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/syria/
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/syria/report-syria/
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...angings-and-extermination-at-saydnaya-prison/
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/07/middleeast/syria-executions-amnesty-international-report/

4. Genocide of Rohingya Muslims.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/asia-and-the-pacific/myanmar/report-myanmar/
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...et-rohingya-viscious-scorched-earth-campaign/
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/asa16/5362/2016/en/
https://www.amnesty.nl/actueel/bang...a-refugees-amid-collective-punishment-myanmar

Do they only speak for terrorist who was caught while carrying out anti-state activities against Pakistan.
Clearly not.
 
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Its not about Amnesty. I hate that organisation as well. But it is about Natural justice. When you are trying an International citizen its mandatory the embassy is roped in, can be provided the best possible layer (paid for by his country or family), and most importantly transparency. Kasab was provided an good defence lawyer, media was let in, and the whole world knew how the trial proceeded.

This thing looks more like a farce. I dont care how they treat Pakistani citizens in their country. But in this particular case, this is what I call an Banana court.
Our constitution sanctioned by the parliment enables pakistan military courts to try terrorists, kalboshian is not a simple indian citizen, he is a terrorist and will be dealt as such according to pakistani law, no law precedes pakistani law in pakistan, amnesty international and india can go phuck themselves for all we care, pakistani law made by the people, for the people under the will of Allah will prevail here nothing else...
 
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Indian article so it is biased.
You could just as easily put any countryname in that statement. Bias is something you would have to show, if you think it is there (HOW is the article biased? WHY / in what way does that matter for the discussion?).
 
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Why? What do you want us to look at / comment on?

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Would like your comments on the legality of this verdict (execution) based on the Geneva convention on dealing with spies.
Would also like to hear your comments based on the entire case (arrest and confession) of Kulbhushan Yadav of whether it seems as black and white as the Pakistanis claim it to be.
 
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Our constitution sanctioned by the parliment enables pakistan military courts to try terrorists, kalboshian is not a simple indian citizen, he is a terrorist and will be dealt as such according to pakistani law, no law precedes pakistani law in pakistan, amnesty international and india can go phuck themselves for all we care, pakistani law made by the people, for the people under the will of Allah will prevail here nothing else...

Then proving his hand in terrorism would be the first step no?
No information has been released with regards to which particular acts of terrorism he was involved with or for that matter any detail on the case proceedings itself.
 
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This terrorist spy Yadav had a lot fairer trial than what Zakia Jafri was afforded for Gujrat massacre, most of the terrorists accused are out and one is even the Prime Minister of India.
 
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Then prove his hand in terrorism would be the first step no?
No information has been released with regards to which particular acts of terrorism he was involved with or for that matter any detail on the case proceedings itself.
There is an elephant in the room beta, u need to get clear of it, we dont need to prove anything to u, we got ur monkey n we will deal with it as it deserves, proof is there, we are not in the habbit of conducting false flag opps just to get international acclaim like u do..
 
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There is an elephant in the room beta, u need to get clear of it, we dont need to prove anything to u, we got ur monkey n we will deal with it as it deserves, proof is there, we are not in the habbit of conducting false flag opps just to get international acclaim like u do..

Well then you're on the wrong thread. Clearly this thread discusses the violation of international norms by Pakistan in sentencing Jadhav to death without a fair and open trial.
You obviously have nothing to contribute except arrogance.
 
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Our constitution sanctioned by the parliment enables pakistan military courts to try terrorists, kalboshian is not a simple indian citizen, he is a terrorist and will be dealt as such according to pakistani law, no law precedes pakistani law in pakistan, amnesty international and india can go phuck themselves for all we care, pakistani law made by the people, for the people under the will of Allah will prevail here nothing else...

He is an foreign citizen, and hence he is subjected to justice that satisfies the nation of his birth. If Pakistan has all the evidence, then they should let the embassy officials in which is the normal course of action. Then he has to be proved in a fair trial where evidences are placed, and defended by a lawyer who is paid by his family or his country. You got that? Not a secretive trial where no one knows what happened.
 
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I'm sure they have already tortured him to death. The hanging is to save face.
 
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He is an foreign citizen, and hence he is subjected to justice that satisfies the nation of his birth. If Pakistan has all the evidence, then they should let the embassy officials in which is the normal course of action. Then he has to be proved in a fair trial where evidences are placed, and defended by a lawyer who is paid by his family or his country. You got that? Not a secretive trial where no one knows what happened.
Why were nazi generals tried in military courts than??, because they had voilated rules of war by relentless killing of civilians, if an indian soy had been caught collecting info on our nukes or something like that than he would deserve a normal trail, khulbaushan was involved in fueling terrorism on balochistan, he killed hundreds if not thousands of civilians in bomb blasts orchestrated by him hence he will never be treated as a normal spy, he will be treated as a terrorist and as i said pakistani law states that terrorist trails are domain of military courts so he will be dealt as such in lieu of nature of his crimes which puts him under the jurisdiction of military courts, as i said its all legal as stated by pakistani law, every land has different laws and we will work according to ours, maybe if u indians actually protested against ur govt and forced them to stop trying to destabilize pakistan we would've a peaceful asia and we can focus on human development and poverty allivation, we were the former rulers of india, rulers of an empire that covered half the world, we actually have a precedent hence we muslims should be more inclined towards restoring it but if we have learned to accept the reality of this world and live as nations than u indians have no precendent,u have never been a superpower, u have never ruled over great empires, u have no precedent than why sre u so hell bent on ur hindutva dream??,abandon it, its not possible, dont get played by israeli's or americans, ur just asians to them in the end, after they have used u against us they will start thinking about disposing u, goddamn it, if the british ahd not left the kashmir issue this area would not be a nuclear flashpoint and friendly india-pak-china would've easily dominated the next century, they left these conflicts to keep us as their slaves, keep us weak, our only demand is kashmir, we have no designs beyond that, we dont want dehli we dont want to restore the mughal empire, kashmir is a muslim majority area that wants to go with pakistan, u know deep inside ur hearts that u are wrongfully occupying the state, but ego wont ever let u accept that, we cant back of a stance based on justice, u should if u want to give peace a chance, let kashmir go, let its people decide what they want, if they opt for a separate state, if they dont want pakistan we will be content with it, let kashmir go and 1.5 billion people will no longer live under the yoke of nuclear annihilation every day in this region...
 
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Would like your comments on the legality of this verdict (execution) based on the Geneva convention on dealing with spies.
Which convention do you think applies/should apply?

The Geneva Conventions apply in wars between two or more sovereign states

The first Geneva Convention ("for the Amelioration of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces and Field")
The second Geneva Convention ("for the Amelioration of the Condition of Wounded, Sick and Shipwrecked Members of Armed Forces at Sea")
The third Geneva Convention ("Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War")
The fourth Geneva Convention ("Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War")

The first two are similar, covering land and sea respectively, and embody the main idea which led to the founding of the Red Cross: if a member of the armed forces is wounded or sick, and therefore in no condition to take an active part in the hostilities, he is no longer part of the fighting force and becomes a vulnerable person in need of protection and care. The main points of these two Conventions are: The sick, wounded and shipwrecked must be cared for adequately. Belligerents must treat members of the enemy force who are wounded, sick or shipwrecked as carefully they would their own. All efforts should be made to collect the dead quickly; to confirm death by medical examination; to identify bodies and protect them from robbery. Medical equipment must not be intentionally destroyed and medical establishments and vehicles must not be attacked, damaged or prevented from operating even if, for the moment, they do not contain patients.

The third convention covers members of the armed forces who fall into enemy hands. They are in the power of the enemy State, not of the individuals or troops who have captured them. The fourth covers all individuals "who do not belong to the armed forces, take no part in the hostilities and find themselves in the hands of the Enemy or an Occupying Power".

Please note there is not a state of War between Pakistan and India.
There is no case of a military conflict or military occupation.

See e.g.
http://www.ppu.org.uk/learn/texts/doc_geneva_con.html
https://www.icrc.org/en/war-and-law/treaties-customary-law/geneva-conventions

As for the treatment of spies specifically, see https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul_rule107_sectionb
https://www.quora.com/Does-the-Geneva-Convention-apply-to-spies

Article 5 of the 1949 Geneva Convention IV provides: “Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy … such … [person] shall nevertheless be treated with humanity, and in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention.”

> occupation is not the case

Additional Protocol I
Article 46(1) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I provides:
Notwithstanding any other provision of the Conventions or of this Protocol, any member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict who falls into the power of an adverse Party while engaging in espionage shall not have the right to the status of prisoner of war and may be treated as a spy.

> armed conflict is not the case
> even if it were the case, spies cannot claim PoW status

Article 45(3) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I provides:
Any person who has taken part in hostilities, who is not entitled to prisoner-of-war status and who does not benefit from more favourable treatment in accordance with the Fourth Convention shall have the right at all times to the protection of Article 75 of this Protocol.

> taking part in hostilities is not the case
> article 75, see https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/appl...t&documentId=086F4BB140C53655C12563CD0051E027

For those nations that have ratified Protocol I of the Geneva Conventions, are also bound by Article 45.3 of that protocol which curtails GCIV Article 5.
Any person who has taken part in hostilities, who is not entitled to prisoner‑of‑war status and who does not benefit from more favourable treatment in accordance with the Fourth Convention shall have the right at all times to the protection of Article 75 of this Protocol. In occupied territory, any such person, unless he is held as a spy, shall also be entitled, notwithstanding Article 5 of the Fourth Convention, to his rights of communication under that Convention.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_combatant

More info, see http://notabeneuh.blogspot.nl/2013/11/spying-and-international-law.html
 
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Why were nazi generals tried in military courts than??, because they had voilated rules of war by relentless killing of civilians, if an indian soy had been caught collecting info on our nukes or something like that than he would deserve a normal trail, khulbaushan was involved in fueling terrorism on balochistan, he killed hundreds if not thousands of civilians in bomb blasts orchestrated by him hence he will never be treated as a normal spy, he will be treated as a terrorist and as i said pakistani law states that terrorist trails are domain of military courts so he will be dealt as such in lieu of nature of his crimes which puts him under the jurisdiction of military courts, as i said its all legal as stated by pakistani law, every land has different laws and we will work according to ours, maybe if u indians actually protested against ur govt and forced them to stop trying to destabilize pakistan we would've a peaceful asia and we can focus on human development and poverty allivation, we were the former rulers of india, rulers of an empire that covered half the world, we actually have a precedent hence we muslims should be more inclined towards restoring it but if we have learned to accept the reality of this world and live as nations than u indians have no precendent,u have never been a superpower, u have never ruled over great empires, u have no precedent than why sre u so hell bent on ur hindutva dream??,abandon it, its not possible, dont get played by israeli's or americans, ur just asians to them in the end, after they have used u against us they will start thinking about disposing u, goddamn it, if the british ahd not left the kashmir issue this area would not be a nuclear flashpoint and friendly india-pak-china would've easily dominated the next century, they left these conflicts to keep us as their slaves, keep us weak, our only demand is kashmir, we have no designs beyond that, we dont want dehli we dont want to restore the mughal empire, kashmir is a muslim majority area that wants to go with pakistan, u know deep inside ur hearts that u are wrongfully occupying the state, but ego wont ever let u accept that, we cant back of a stance based on justice, u should if u want to give peace a chance, let kashmir go, let its people decide what they want, if they opt for a separate state, if they dont want pakistan we will be content with it, let kashmir go and 1.5 billion people will no longer live under the yoke of nuclear annihilation every day in this region...

No use talking with you.

have a good day
 
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