American Dare

[Awesome]

Many many moderate scholars of Islam have stated that there is no contradiction between democracy and Khalifah systems. Then why not use democracy as a stepping stone and see where we get from there.

Right now we have monarchies which are in stark contrast with the Khalifah systems. Why diss democracy and not monarchy?

 

[Awesome]

Yeah, and the Middle East is a shining example of all of those things. Tell me another one please.

I think he's dissing both. Though he believes we Musharraf supporters are sell out to the west so he'd only mention the west .

The Khalifah is not a system of the Middle East. First of all there's no such doctrine of a Khalifah, to put very vaguely its supposed to be "something nice". Khalifah's in the older times (like the first few only) were democratic. There weren't general elections involving the entire population but the local leaders of a place voted. The concept was rudimentally already there.

It wasn't till Shia/Sunni (kinda civil war) conflict began to emerge that we saw heridatory rule. Otherwise the first 4 Khalifahs were voted into office. They were also close companions of the Prophet so I guess they were the only ones who upheld the system.

So basically by their time was up a system wasn't really set anyway. The rest of the rulers of the Ottoman, had some people who were relatively good (for their time) and provided laws, some enhanced education while others were conquerors. So there really wasn't a system since the Islamic system established at the time of the Prophet and by his close companions was already abolished by heridatory rule. But whatever it was it was considered to be something nice since Muslims had a good global standing.

The Ottomans did not rule purely by Islam. But they did rule efficiently for the most bit. So that's why I say bring about an efficient system that is suitable for today's world. And such a system would HAVE TO be different from the Ottomans. Bring yourself at a good standing and automatically Islam would also retain its worth as well. Since a good efficient system wont hinder a Muslims right to practice and preach Islam.

It requires flexibility which people who support groups like Hizb Tahrir (who as he says are persecuted in Britain - for good reason, they've voiced support for suicide bombing and if I would have it, they'd be persecuted on PFF too) don't have. They'd be foolishly adamant that "NO! Bring Islam first, whatever the governance would be, we'd figure it out later". Rigid. Very rigid.

 

[TopHatter]

I think he's dissing both. Though he believes we Musharraf supporters are sell out to the west so he'd only mention the west .

Really..Hm, did not realize that.

 

[Awesome]

Yeah man you need to give him a little orientation into me

<humble>Y'know my outstanding ability to diss both sides </humble>

Mostly cause I'm a centrist and half enough dirt on the left and the right.

 

[Thunder]

Democercy would certianly be the first step, the thing is that us as the people want a united ummah, the people of arabs, iranians, pakistanis etc etc, us people want a united ummah but our leaders don't want that because it'll risk their powers. Having democerecy, it will be our choice who should lead the country/ unite the ummah. Who ever you vote for. <--- That's democercy for ya

PS: The klifia law also has democercy, you have freedom of speech and other things that democerecy offeres, only the klifa democercy has all the bad parts of democercey out,( Yes democercey might be good but it isnt perfect now is it?)

 

[Bull]

Our elites are completely unawear of islam and they are blindly follwing western thinkers...they are unable to see that how the west did this so called progress becouse if u remove economical progress from the west they are still living in the Dark agessss and this is all becouse of democracy.we have our own system of ruling/ political system which is very clear and that is KHILAFAH, so instead of working to emplement hepocracy we must work hard for re-establishment of khilafah which is the only solution for the humanity

How do you measure progress?
Living standards, ecocnomic security doesnt matter as far as your argument goes.Can u shed more light on it.

 

[Bull]

Thank you. I'm glad that somebody finally pointed that out.

Guys, I hate to rain on your parade but the United States didn't invade Iraq to grab oil. The invasion of Iraq was a reaction to 9/11, a warning to other "rogue" states/state-sponsors of terrorism like Libya, Iran, North Korea etc.
Basically the whole point was to pick a country such as those listed above, sweep into it like a scythe, oust the existing government, quickly put a new (pro-U.S. obviously) government in place and LEAVE. Of all the countries that were on the target list, it was assumed that Iraq would fit the bill perfectly. They were militarily weak, smaller than others in population and land area, and had huge oil reserves that could be used to rebuild the country after the U.S. invasion. The oil was never meant for the U.S. except through normal trade, but for the benefit of Iraq. In other words, the U.S. didn't want to have to finance the reconstruction itself.

That is what the message the Bush Administration wanted to portray to anti-American countries: "Don't even THINK about pulling a 9/11 style attack or ANY other kind of attack on the United States or we will BURY you just like we did with Iraq."

Of course, in their arrogance, people like Bush and Rumsfeld just assumed it would be a relatively easy thing to take on Iraq after the near-instant success in Afghanistan. (though as somebody pointed out, the Taliban hasn't quite quit the fight)

Obviously that's not what happened.

You speak well,but then thats not surprising.

Speak to US oil expert and he will say "we are very glad that China is not getting enough oil to grow fully" and thats the US game plan.

 

[Bull]

p.s. The U.S. has directly spent over $200 billion on the war in addition the reduction in Iraq's Oil exports have increased world price which itself would represent another $100 bilion for the U.S. economy. Also the 200b figure doesnt include the cost wear and tear on equipment fully and the U.S. is reducing capital expenditure on acquisitions to pay for the war. All this happening against a backdrop of strong growth by China, Russia, Iran and so forth

Well consider those expenses in the context.Majority of that money($200Bn) has gone into the American eceonomy which would have helped it to keep the jobs.

And if $ 100Bn added added to the US economy,guess how much of an impact it would have had on other developing markets.The impact will be double,firstly directly thru increased crude prices and secondly exports effected due to sluggish American economy(which again is due to high crude prices).

So who suffers if US suffers,WE ALL.

 

[Bull]

It is also having the prerequisites of civilisation that enables a people to progress. For example a strong and clear ruling system, a just and efficient judicial system and a sophisticated jurisprudence.

Well if it exists anywhere, then its in the west/developed countries.

 

[Bull]

Only with the system of khilafah we can re unite our lands..

Unite our lands?Who are we ?Are you speaking abt muslims,what if a muslim doesnt want to live in your dreamland?then what?

 

[sigatoka]

Well consider those expenses in the context.Majority of that money($200Bn) has gone into the American eceonomy which would have helped it to keep the jobs.

And if $ 100Bn added added to the US economy,guess how much of an impact it would have had on other developing markets.The impact will be double,firstly directly thru increased crude prices and secondly exports effected due to sluggish American economy(which again is due to high crude prices).

1. So who suffers if US suffers,WE ALL.

1. I didnt understand at all how you arrived at this statment, why exactly would everyone suffer if US suffers?

 

[Salahuddin]

"Islam is the best chance the poor of the planet have for any hope of decency in their lives. It is the one revolutionary force that cares about humanity." [1998] - Former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark

Many many moderate scholars of Islam have stated that there is no contradiction between democracy and Khalifah systems. Then why not use democracy as a stepping stone and see where we get from there.

Right now we have monarchies which are in stark contrast with the Khalifah systems. Why diss democracy and not monarchy?

Go and study what khilafah system is first before you pass any comments about it.

 

[TopHatter]

You have to lough at your ignorancy brother, wake up to reality......

Well, be my guest. I'm certainly laughing at YOUR ignorance.

The show of desire among majority of the Muslims of the world that is kept suppressed by the current Muslim govts. There are many reasons for this, 2 of which are: 1) Western (US, British, France, German etc.) influence. 2)

Ahh and there we have it. I was waiting for this: "It's not OUR fault, it's the Western infidel influence...we're the VICTIMS here".

Please. It gets old after a while.

Fear by the Muslim tyrant/oppressive leader to relinquish authority.

Yeah, it's much more convenient to keep your people locked away in the 11th Century...

One more thing: women in the US were allowed to vote only in the 1960s. Islam had given Muslim women this and other rights about 1400 years ago.

Women's rights?? You're bragging about WOMEN'S RIGHTS in Muslim countries??

Brother, I can't do anything more than laugh at your ignorance. Although after that brilliant statement I suppose I could cry a little too.

 

[Salahuddin]

Well, be my guest. I'm certainly laughing at YOUR ignorance.
Ahh and there we have it. I was waiting for this: "It's not OUR fault, it's the Western infidel influence...we're the VICTIMS here".

Please. It gets old after a while.

Yeah, it's much more convenient to keep your people locked away in the 11th Century...

Women's rights?? You're bragging about WOMEN'S RIGHTS in Muslim countries??

Brother, I can't do anything more than laugh at your ignorance. Although after that brilliant statement I suppose I could cry a little too.

"Civilization of the West is perversion of heart and mind,
Since its soul could not remain unpolluted&#8230;.
But the heart in the unilluminated breast unblest with peace,
Dark is the Frankish (western) country with the smoke of its machines&#8230;
A civilization sick before its prime, at its last gasp&#8230;
Of this civilization of ungodliness beware!
At war (it is) with men of truth&#8230;
In snatching bread from the weak its wisdom lies"
Muhammad Iqbal (Muslim Poet)

Same sick Civilization the anti Islam forces in muslim countries are imposing on muslim. Go study Islamic system your self before you pass any comments regarding Islam and stop learning your Islam from CNN.

 

[TopHatter]

Same sick Civilization the anti Islam forces in muslim countries are imposing on muslim.

"It's not OUR fault, it's the Western infidel influence...we're the VICTIMS here".

Heard it before. Broken record. Find a new excuse. Or better yet, quit making excuses.

Go study Islamic system your self before you pass any comments regarding Islam and stop learning your Islam from CNN.

As you command!

And now in other news...I don't watch CNN, nor Fox News for that matter. Ironically enough, I've learned the most about Islam from people online, such as yourself.

And what does all that have to do with the abyssmally poor rights of women in your typical Muslim country? Or don't you want to brag some more about the many rights granted to women by Islam for the past 1400 years?