AMCA :: Fifth Generation Fighter Under Development in India

[IndianArmy]

Five simultaneous projects? How many fighters can India produce/assemble locally anyway? LCA, SU30, MRCA, PAKFA and now AMCA? Not to mention all the other projects like Saras, AWACS etc!!

Sorry for being so cynical, but I really think they need to maintain focus on the LCA and PAK-FA. India hasn't managed to come up with a 4th gen fighter, or even an SMG for that matter. DRDO is setting itself up for failure once again by underestimating the complexity of such an endeavor and over estimating its capabilities.

What's the point of initiating so many parallel projects when the IAF's needs can easily be met with a reliable 4th gen fighter (LCA) and a hundred or so PAK-FA?

DRDO has more than 40 labs of which 6 of are working on stealth ... As for the Manufacturing Part... Su 30 MKI will be Over by 2016 , LCA will be over by 2020. The Left is FGFA, MMRCA,AMCA,MRTA .... HAL Nasik and HAL Bangalore plants are dedicated for Manufacturing Fighter Aircrafts while HAL Kanpur has the facility for Military transport Aircraft Ie MRTA ....

Above all, NAL has been doing there bit of Contribution ....

 

[angeldemon_007]

Sorry for being so cynical, but I really think they need to maintain focus on the LCA and PAK-FA. India hasn't managed to come up with a 4th gen fighter, or even an SMG for that matter. DRDO is setting itself up for failure once again by underestimating the complexity of such an endeavor and over estimating its capabilities.

You may be right and might be wrong also. Their is nothing wrong in developing the technologies, even if you fail, your research should continue. ADA and HAL faced many problems during LCA development.

They might not have reached the expectations but they definitely gained alot of experience and knowledge from that project. If they stop now, all that we have gained will be of no use.

I appreciate their step taken to develop mk2 version of LCA. Similar step is being taken in FGFA also. Now we might not be able to design a mk2 version of FGFA any time soon,but we must put all that we have learnt into some project otherwise it is of no use.

It is like going to math class and then never practice the question after the class (well i use to do that but believe me its not good). I think development of lca mk2 and AMCA is a wise decision. You are right we won't be able to produce all these planes at the same time but believe me we are not doing that.

Su30 = all 272 will be inducted latest by 2018 which is when we will start producing FGFA (if there are no delays).
LCA = it will also be finished by 2020-2021. (AMCA production should start).
MMRCA = i am not sure how long it will take but i will say by 2022.
Saras= comes under NAL which has nothing to do with defense sector. They will also be producing RTA-70 but they will not effect HAL or ADA.
AWACS= It is actually manufactured by Embraer with the help of DRDO labs like LRDE, DARE, DLRL, CABS and DEAL which won't have much contribution in above projects except LRDE which is working on AESA for the fighters and this what they are contributing in AWACS also.
MRTA= JV with Russia (Production likely in 2015-16).

Helicopters :
Dhruv (order to be completed by 2015).
LCH (ready by 2013)
LUH (ready by 2014)
IMRH (ready by 2015-16)
I might have missed some project.

Man you might be right as everything is quite close. If managed well, they might be able to pull all these projects. If anyone delays, many projects will be effected. Labs are well managed although their will be some delays but main thing here is production. Everything depends on HALs 4 billion $ expansion plan and its IPO on the stock market.

 

[blackops]

 

[Kashmiripandit2]

The display model at AI'11 looks good to me. But I really hope they can bring it into real life fast. And hopefully with a good paintjob.

 

[Storm Force]

i HO[PE the indians continue with military fighter programmes.

I think the LCA DHRUV & LCH projects have been a really boost to confidence of indengious success.

They must forget MMRCA imo go striaght from lca to amca

 

[sancho]

i HO[PE the indians continue with military fighter programmes.

I think the LCA DHRUV & LCH projects have been a really boost to confidence of indengious success.

They must forget MMRCA imo go striaght from lca to amca

What have Dhruve and LCH to do with a fighter development, let alone a 5. gen fighter?

Exaclty that "confidence of indengious success" has led to the delays and failures in the LCA development, failures like Kaveri engine, or MMR/AESA radar, that needs foreign help to be ready.

Overconfidence, pride, irrational thinking are the biggest problems for our indigenous developments!
People has to understand where we really stand in the aero field and stop dreaming that we can do anything on our own now, when even these developments you pointed out, has a high content of foreign help, that made them successful now.

It seems you completely missed the point in MMRCA, when you still think it is just a fighter replacement!
Getting as much ToT and offsets in return for the biggest fighter deal, was not aimed from GoI / MoD for no reason, but to increase the capabilities, know how and experience of our indigenous industry. That's why co-developments like Brahmos, FGFA, MRTA are so important for us!
If we would be able to make AMCA alone and in a reasonable time, we would have gone with Mirage 2000-5s and AMCA development long time ago. But we aren't, that's why MRCA was upgraded to MMRCA, with way more goals behind it and why we pay several billions to co-develop FGFA.
When we have LCA operational and got enough out of MMRCA and FGFA development, we will be able to develop arms and techs alone, but not earlier!

 

[shaktiman2010]

If we would be able to make AMCA alone and in a reasonable time, we would have gone with Mirage 2000-5s and AMCA development long time ago. But we aren't, that's why MRCA was upgraded to MMRCA, with way more goals behind it and why we pay several billions to co-develop FGFA.
When we have LCA operational and got enough out of MMRCA and FGFA development, we will be able to develop arms and techs alone, but not earlier!

Exactly. If MMRCA had been really important, GoI would have signed it by now, like you said.

GoI is going on right path after a long time. This is not knee-jerk "Russian-imports" era of 1960-80's when we threw money on imports in senseless manner.

 

[shaktiman2010]

Exaclty that "confidence of indengious success" has led to the delays and failures in the LCA development, failures like Kaveri engine, or MMR/AESA radar, that needs foreign help to be ready.

Stop making stupid claims here.

Kaveri engine has passed high altitude testing and its first flight test has been successful.

 

[shaktiman2010]

Some people never grow up and pull their heads out of sand.

LCA is failure, Kaveri is failure, Arjun is failure, Nag is failure, INSAS is failure. Please import now or India will collapse.

 

[sancho]

Stop making stupid claims here.

Kaveri engine has passed high altitude testing and its first flight test has been successful.

With what thrust? Why isn't it useful for LCA then? Why is the co-development with Snecma needed, to get enough thrust to integrate it into LCA MK1 druing MLU (in 10 years or so), or beyond 2020 possibly in AMCA?
If we would be confident and more importantly, really had the know how to further develop it alone, we wouldn't need foreign help right?

It was a big big mistake to develop the engine and radar alone, moreover to make LCA dependent on these developments just on basis of confidence in indigenous success and that's why the project suffered so much.

 

[shaktiman2010]

With what thrust? Why isn't it useful for LCA then? Why is the co-development with Snecma needed, to get enough thrust to integrate it into LCA MK1 druing MLU (in 10 years or so), or beyond 2020 possibly in AMCA?
If we would be confident and more importantly, really had the know how to further develop it alone, we wouldn't need foreign help right?

It was a big big mistake to develop the engine and radar alone, moreover to make LCA dependent on these developments just on basis of confidence in indigenous success and that's why the project suffered so much.

If it was over-confidence, then how come GTRE's Kaveri design passed flight test in Russia?

If LCA is a failure then, why it was granted IOC?

Are you smoking?

 

[blackops]

If it was over-confidence, then how come GTRE's Kaveri design passed flight test in Russia?

If LCA is a failure then, why it was granted IOC?
Are you smoking?

Are you smoking he is not saying kaveri was a complete failure he is taking about the thrust which needs be achived

 

[shaktiman2010]

MRCA will not create any R&D infrastructure. Its a pipe dream which import lobby is smoking.

Programmes like SARAS are strategically more important than MRCA crap, because imported blueprints may teach you engineering but it won't teach you science behind it. That's only learnt by doing it yourself.

Bottomline is, MRCA is a huge waste of money but only reason we are going ahead with it is, its a stop-gap measure just to assure impatient types in IAF.

 

[sancho]

If it was over-confidence, then how come GTRE's Kaveri design passed flight test in Russia?

If LCA is a failure then, why it was granted IOC?

Read slowly and stop bull..ing! I never said LCA is a failure, but Kaveri engine and MMR/AESA are!

What's the use of the flight testing in an IL 76, when the engine don't offer enough thrust to be useful for our fighter development, not even in a decade? I am very happy about LCA getting IOC, but am realistic enough to see how. Foreign engine, most likely foreign radar, foreign consultancy for several issues!

If we had build LCA around an of the shelf foreign engine and radar from the begining, we would have MK1 squads for years and could develop MK2 with our indigenous engines and radars. But we tried it exactly the other way around and that's the problem!

 

[shaktiman2010]

Are you smoking he is not saying kaveri was a complete failure he is taking about the thrust which needs be achived

Thrust is a criteria set by IAF for engine they want in LCA. Its not a criteria for engine's flight-performance or its design's robustness.

Kaveri's design has been proven in flight test. That's what counts. So, its stupid to claim that Kaveri is failure.