Alternatives to U-214

[SBD-3]

nice nice......but will HDW allow kockums to collaborate with PN if supposedly PN decides for Gotland as a fall back of 214...(highly hypothetical scenario)

 

[Penguin]

nice nice......but will HDW allow kockums to collaborate with PN if supposedly PN decides for Gotland as a fall back of 214...(highly hypothetical scenario)

Then consider that in recent decades Sweden has exported submarines only to Australia (6 boat purpose designed and built Collins Class, an enlarged version of Kockums' Västergötland built in Australia), Singapore (1997-2001: 4 boat RSS Challenger Class, essentially modernized ex-Swedish Sjöormen Class boats. And 2 Archer class, modernized ex-Swedish Västergötland class boats to enter service from 2010 ) and Denmark (HMS Kronborg, a modernized ex-Swedish Näcken Class boat).

That is to say, in the past 15-20 years, Kockums has built only 3 new submarines, which were for the Swedish navy. Kockums has mainly been in the business of upgrading and modernizing older subs, some of which with AIP, for Swedish and foreign navies. As the example of the Collins class shows, that doesn't mean they cannot export new boats, but makes it much less likely, particularly since HDW-Kiel has much more experience in that respect with its own succesfull boats and is the owner of Kockums.

 

[Super Falcon]

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[Super Falcon]

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[Super Falcon]

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[Super Falcon]

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[rastor]

Is the U-214 deal stalled or not? I am unable to find any information regarding it except the quote from the German Ambassador to India.

 

[Super Falcon]

it is on pending im sure something will happen in 2010

 

[True_Pakistan_Zindabad]

Forget U214, forget French subs still stuck in pipe dreams...just forget everything. Sometimes we are guilty of thinking western hardware is so much superior and thus we ignore or conveniently forget about the military and scientific revolution happening right before our eyes in China. Well you have seen how all our deals hang in political limbo, sanctions, late deliveries, sabotage, etc.

Ladies and Gentlemen...what the hell are we doing without these?


Type 094 (Jin Class) Nuclear-Powered Missile Submarine

The Type 094 (also referred to as Type 09-IV, NATO reporting name: Jin class) is the PLA Navy’s second-generation nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine (SSBN), succeeding the Type 092 (Xia class) SSBN of a single hull commissioned in 1983. The Type 094 was designed by CSIC’s Wuhan 2nd Ship Design Institute (also known as 719 Institute) in Wuhan, Hubei Province and built by CSIC’s Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industry Co. Ltd. (previously known as Bohai Shipyard) in Huludao, Liaoning Province.

Programme

The development of the Type 094 began in the late 1980s to early 1990s, reportedly with assistance of the Rubin Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering in St. Petersburg, one of Russia’s primary nuclear submarine designer.

Construction of the first-of-class began in 1999 and the submarine was launched in July 2004. A second hull was launched possibly in 2007 and may be commissioned in 2010. Both submarine have been undergoing sea trials, with no test launching of the ballistic missile from the submarine reported so far. The initial operational capability of the submarines may not come until 2012~2015.

The U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) predicted in December 2006 that the PRC will need to build a total of five Type 094 SSBNs in order to maintain a near-continuous at-sea SSBN presence, with at least one boat available and ready for missile launch at all times.

Satellite images have captured the two Type 094 SSBNs docked at the Bohai Shipyard, and one of the submarines was also spotted inside the PLA Navy’s nuclear submarine base at Xiaopingdao, Liaoning Province. In April 2008, Federation of American Scientists (FAS) website revealed that a Type 094 SSBN has been deployed to a newly-built nuclear submarine base near the city of Sanyang in Hainan Island [1].

Design

The Type 094 SSBN bears many similarities with the Type 093 Shang class nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN), suggesting that the two submarines share the same design baseline. The submarine features a water-drop shape hull, with a pair of fin-mounted hydroplanes and four diving planes.

The dive displacement of the submarine was estimated to be 8,000~9,000 tonnes. The Type 094 has yet approached the performance and capability of modern Russian and Western SSBN designs, especially in quietness and missile number. However, once fully operational, it will offer the PLA Navy with a much more credible sea-based nuclear retaliation capability than that offered by its predecessor Type 092 Xia class.

Missiles

The Type 094 has the capacity to carry 12 submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBM). The JuLang 2 SLBM designed and developed by CASIC 4th Academy is a three-stage, solid-propellant strategic ballistic missile. It is a derivation of the land-based DongFeng 31 (DF-31) intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM). The maximum range of the JuLang 2 was estimated to be 7,000~8,000km, three times that of the first-generation JuLang 1 SLBM used by the Type 092.

Each JuLang 2 can carry a single thermalnuclear warhead of 25~1,000kt yield. Alternatively, the missile was said to be able to carry three or more 90kT multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles (MIRV), though this cannot be confirmed.

Torpedoes

The submarine has six 533mm bow torpedo tubes, and carries a total of 12 Yu-3 (SET-65E) torpedoes, which is equipped with both active and passive homing. The torpedo, with a 205kg warhead, has a maximum range of 15km and a top speed of 40kt. Alternatively, the submarine may carry wake-homing anti-surface torpedoes or wire-homing anti-submarine torpedoes.

Sensors

The submarine is fitted with sophisticated sonar systems, including bow-mounted sonar and H/SQC-207 flank-mounted sonar. Three flank-mounted sonar arrays are clearly visible on the hull of the submarine.

Propulsion

The submarine’s propulsion system is believed to be nuclear, turbo-electric arrangement, consisting of one pressurised water reactor (PWR), with one shaft.

Shiplist
No. Name Shipyard Fleet Launch IOC
? ? Bohai North Sea 2004 ?
? ? Bohai South Sea? 2007 ?

Specifications

Displacement: (Dived) 8,000~9,000t
Missile: 12 X JL-2 SLBM

 

[Jigs]

^^^
Pakistan is not going to buy 9,000 ton Nuclear subs with ballistic missiles. That would be waaay out of the budget.

Lets be realistic here. Pakistan is looking at 2,000-3,000 ton Diesel-electric subs to replace older ones not looking to go nuclear with subs comparable to the U.S. and Russian Fleet.

 

[Quwa]

^^^
Pakistan is not going to buy 9,000 ton Nuclear subs with ballistic missiles. That would be waaay out of the budget.

Lets be realistic here. Pakistan is looking at 2,000-3,000 ton Diesel-electric subs to replace older ones not looking to go nuclear with subs comparable to the U.S. and Russian Fleet.

Agreed...but 10-15 years down the line we might see an initiative to develop & produce a SSGN in Pakistan. A few years ago the then PN naval chief explicitly stated that such a system can be drawn if necessary. Now at the very least this would mean an SSK equipped with SLCM with nuclear warheads, but there are a couple other things to think about. First, PAEC has been conceptualizing a miniature reactor design with a number of Pakistani universities...and second, Pakistan can work with China to produce a suitable sized submarine frame with the reactor & weapons sourced indigenously.

And the study of a Pakistani SSN isn't new, the U.S. has been tracking it for a while now, and it even blamed China for assisting Pakistan in such a development in 1989..."He also denied another rumor--Chinese cooperation with Pakistan on nuclear submarine technology--this was most unlikely, he claimed, because the "PRC is certainly the most backward in those technologies." (Note 19) The diplomat restated the Zhao declaration adding that "one could even say that China opposes nuclear proliferation," despite the PRC's opposition to the NPT." (link)

Depending on urgency and finances, Pakistan might develop a 4000~5000 ton SSGN similar in size to the French Barracuda Class. Remember, Pakistan can undertake research and development of a miniature reactor for submarines if it had the funding to produce the necessary expertise, infrastructure, etc. Running two parallel nuclear programs (uranium and plutonium) isn't easy and it requires a significant backdrop of expertise, technology and infrastructure...so Pakistan has the latent means for indigenous reactors. The help from China and potentially the West would also help in accelerating key aspects of the development curve.

That said, a Pakistani miniature PWR reactor will not be as good in performance as Western or even Chinese counterparts. We'd be lucky if we can get across with excellent safety standards, but the end goal is to keep aggressive powers away.

 

[Donatello]

^^^
Pakistan is not going to buy 9,000 ton Nuclear subs with ballistic missiles. That would be waaay out of the budget.

Lets be realistic here. Pakistan is looking at 2,000-3,000 ton Diesel-electric subs to replace older ones not looking to go nuclear with subs comparable to the U.S. and Russian Fleet.

With India acquiring Nuclear Subs for long range sea missions, we must counter that not by numbers but minimum deterrence.

When in 1992 India was leasing Soviet Nuclear sub, PN also was about lease a Nuclear sub from China. But later India returned the sub.

Hence, there is a possibility that Pakistan might acquire such nuclear vessels. Maybe a couple.

 

[IndianRobo]

With India acquiring Nuclear Subs for long range sea missions, we must counter that not by numbers but minimum deterrence.

When in 1992 India was leasing Soviet Nuclear sub, PN also was about lease a Nuclear sub from China. But later India returned the sub.

Hence, there is a possibility that Pakistan might acquire such nuclear vessels. Maybe a couple.

Well If You are talking about Charlie Class submarine, then Yes, India Leased the Retired Charlie class submarines from Soviet Union.... We studied On it, and We Did Built Arihant now..... Well Leasing Nuke subs Is Not a bad Idea, but trying to build one is even better Isnt it...

 

[Jigs]

With India acquiring Nuclear Subs for long range sea missions, we must counter that not by numbers but minimum deterrence.

When in 1992 India was leasing Soviet Nuclear sub, PN also was about lease a Nuclear sub from China. But later India returned the sub.

Hence, there is a possibility that Pakistan might acquire such nuclear vessels. Maybe a couple.

I understand what your saying but you don't need nuclear subs to counter nuclear subs. Pakistan isn't trying to match India only pick up a defensive measure to counter what they obtain. If you get the U214 then your all set as it has a great AIP system and also has Harpoon capability. Plus they are a more cost effective solution. Seeing as Gotland class AIP subs were able to sink U.S. carriers in exercises without detection it would be logical for Pakistan to also acquire subs with AIP to counter the larger Indian navy.

 

[Donatello]

I understand what your saying but you don't need nuclear subs to counter nuclear subs. Pakistan isn't trying to match India only pick up a defensive measure to counter what they obtain. If you get the U214 then your all set as it has a great AIP system and also has Harpoon capability. Plus they are a more cost effective solution. Seeing as Gotland class AIP subs were able to sink U.S. carriers in exercises without detection it would be logical for Pakistan to also acquire subs with AIP to counter the larger Indian navy.

Pakistan is already getting the SSKs from China as our Admiral pointed out. Probably Song class which none the less is amazing, and with AIP, even more deadly.


But you can't build a conventional sub in case of Ballistic missiles for which you need bigger hulls and hence more propulsion which only nuclear reactors can provide.


Pakistan will have it's hunter-killer SSKs but one Ballistic missile Sub might be needed as currently Army and Airforce are both having Strategic strike capability but the Navy is lacking this.


Plus Harpoon and Exocets are not enough for long range attack.