Alternate solution for Pakistan Navy to counter Large Navies ?

[RazorMC]

...
IN is not really too large / powerful for PN considering that in case of an Indo-Pak conflict, PLAN, Indonesian Navy and BN would inevitably be drawn in on the side of PN.

How is this happening and for what purpose?

 

[indushek]

PN planners would be constantly studying the doctrines adopted by Iranian Navy, PLAN and N Korean Navy to face a far more powerful USN. However, IN is not really too large / powerful for PN considering that in case of an Indo-Pak conflict, PLAN, Indonesian Navy and BN would inevitably be drawn in on the side of PN.

 

[Nishan_101]

Does Large Number of Cruise and Ballistic Missile might be the answer to counter Large Threats Like india in Naval Role?
Missile Defense’s Real Enemy: Math | Flashpoints
Read This article although this has no pakistan mentioned but it does make a point if force like Paksitan navy cant buy ships or jets what if Large number of BM's or CM's be the answers...

Which are cheaper than Ships and can be accomodated in large numbers.

The main thing is to build the submarine fleet which is now under many Navies consideration as a standard navy form and PN is also evaluating this on their own... I think PN should start working with EU countries as China is not too much ahead from West in this, like:
U-216 Class Big SSKs
Andrasta Class Small SSKs
and Even Smaller SSKs that will be carried by Big Utility tankers and deployed near operation zones.
These Three classes are required by PN as well and in good numbers as well. Like:
21 Big SSKs
21 Small SSKs
11 Small Special Operation Subs...

 

[RISING SUN]

As per my opinion there are two saying which are quite opposite to each other.
1st Jitni chaadar hamre passa ho, utna hi legs strech karna chahiye.
2nd Pakistan can't give the free run opportunity to India in open seas.

Pakistan should make artificial line which it has to defend(it should be possible too, no luck assumption and if n buts here.) in a war kind of situation. As the two points are to be taken into consideration, PN will have to make balance here. There are three elements here.

1st constant dedicated air support in anti ship and sub role.
2nd land based long range tracking radars supported by effective SAM system backed by land based anti ship missiles.
3rd PN ships and subs should work in groups, not in proximity. Because this proximity term kills the navies i most of the condition. It's the false belief.

If these three options are intelligently then I think PN will have chance to sustain the fight for long duration which means that they have won literally.
As and when PN ships or subs are going out of their combine effective range they will be venerable to IN fleet. Even IN also follows this same concept to a certain extent.

 

[asad71]

How is this happening and for what purpose?

There can be any number of contingencies causing an Indo-Pak conflict. An Indo-China war, a BD-India war, further ill treatment and atrocities on Indian Muslims causing large scale exodus and many unforeseen events may trigger an Indo-Pak war. All of India's neighbors have scores to settle with this great bully. Should Pakistan abandon the US induced doctrine of Riposte and decide to fight on, then interested neighbors and unhappy nationalities in India would join hands to crush the Brahmonic Republic of India.

 

[RazorMC]

There can be any number of contingencies causing an Indo-Pak conflict. An Indo-China war, a BD-India war, further ill treatment and atrocities on Indian Muslims causing large scale exodus and many unforeseen events may trigger an Indo-Pak war. All of India's neighbors have scores to settle with this great bully. Should Pakistan abandon the US induced doctrine of Riposte and decide to fight on, then interested neighbors and unhappy nationalities in India would join hands to crush the Brahmonic Republic of India.

Wow.
I hope you eventually come to realize that BD and China will never wage a war against India.

 

[Contrarian]

Strange to see people talking about PN blocking routes to Indian ports. It would take numbers like the USN to be able to cover such a large area.

That was just one poster - dear Aeronaut. That was a hypothetical scenario.

My opinion: The only thing that PN considers is how to prevent a blockade and for how long.

There are alternatives, however, that can ensure fuel supply to Pakistan even in times of war. This can reduce the impact of an IN blockade.

There is only one viable move that can ensure fuel supply even during war - Strategic fuel dumps. How big should they be? That is for Pakistan to decide. China already has massive ones. India is building a 90 day war reserve of oil in the mountains. The project is already sanctioned and under construction for over a year.

PS: Using ballistic missiles to target enemy navy vessels? Why?

It is not feasible despite the much acclaimed anti ship BM of China. It has yet to demonstrate that it has the accuracy to target a moving ship with conventional weapons. The earlier missiles using the concept used nuclear weapons on the BM's to wipe out a fleet at sea, because of the very large blast radius, so accuracy was not paramount.

So it is a theoretical and untested myth floating around.

 

[RazorMC]

...
There is only one viable move that can ensure fuel supply even during war - Strategic fuel dumps. How big should they be? That is for Pakistan to decide.
...

This could be one alternative.

But as it is, we are facing a massive energy/fuel crisis. It would be nearly impossible to build fuel reserves for more than a couple of weeks unless we can start shelling you more cash which we don't have atm.
And the storage itself is not cheap.

You see the problem?

There is another alternative still. Utilize IP and TAPI gas and coal from Thar to produce energy. This frees up the oil for storage.

A step further: an underground Iran-Pakistan oil pipeline that supplies at least 35% of our oil needs. Saves dollars and virtually uninterruptible (exept by the Iranian mood swings and US+Arab opposition).

But both procedures are difficult owing to our budget limitations and dwindling diplomatic clout.

 

[Contrarian]

This could be one alternative.

But as it is, we are facing a massive energy/fuel crisis. It would be nearly impossible to build fuel reserves for more than a couple of weeks unless we can start shelling you more cash which we don't have atm.
And the storage itself is not cheap.

No it is not cheap at all. It is costing over a couple of billion dollars just for the storage and ancillary construction alone. The oil would be separate.

There is another alternative still. Utilize IP and TAPI gas and coal from Thar to produce energy. This frees up the oil for storage.

A step further: an underground Iran-Pakistan oil pipeline that supplies at least 35% of our oil needs. Saves dollars and virtually uninterruptible (exept by the Iranian mood swings and US+Arab opposition).

But both procedures are difficult owing to our budget limitations and dwindling diplomatic clout.

This would be a rather long term and idealistic scenario. It would certainly take long to implement. An underground pipeline for oil would be very expensive as well. And something so expensive, subject to the whims of another nation?

There is another issue here - Thar coal. Thar coal is not of good quality. It is lignite, like what India has in Tamil Nadu. The problem is that it is not particularly suited for power generation. The ash it generates damages the plants. It is one of the reasons why despite having huge coal reserves, India has to import coal from Indonesia and Australia.

However, that said the plan of substituting industries and auto from oil to energy obtained from IP and TAPI, and saving the oil for strategic uses would have maximum chance of success over a long period. And it would be quite a strata gem if Pakistan pulls it off.

There is also another factor that you are missing out on - it is not just oil that gets stopped in a blockade. Emergency shipments of war materials and aid that gets blockaded as well. Considering that over 95% of trade of Pakistan is through the sea, it is staggeringly important to protect.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

I am in RTW... if you play the game online ... then you might have heard of Spider_Pig... I am in CoH clan!

Nah, I don't play online. I was trying, but it turns out they shipped my copy of RTW without a CD-key, so I can't play.

 

[asad71]

Wow.
I hope you eventually come to realize that BD and China will never wage a war against India.

Indian has become the biggest buyer of arms. It is a povery ridden country. The incentive in this enterprise is mega-graft by all involved from Italian family downwards. At some point in time these leaders have to justify these procurements. Don't forget the pressure of Western Govts to fight so that they can exploit India more and sell more and more arms and services. That's a possibility we BD and other small neighbors live with. Pakistan and China are too powerful for India which is shi--t scared of them. Should BD be invaded we know China, Pakistan, Indonesia, Turkey and all Muslims will come to assist us.

 

[RazorMC]

...
There is also another factor that you are missing out on - it is not just oil that gets stopped in a blockade. Emergency shipments of war materials and aid that gets blockaded as well. Considering that over 95% of trade of Pakistan is through the sea, it is staggeringly important to protect.

Yes, I left it out intentionally.
Pakistan can manufacture low-mid level military hardware itself and keep a good inventory. Plus supplies from China won't be as easy to block as sea lanes. And an Indo-Pak war is not expected to last more a few weeks at most. Modern times have made international (political) intervention necessary.

War would disrupt other trade and commerce anyways.

IMO, war-time scenarios demand fuel-guzzling hardware like tanks and aircraft to be constantly on the move in one way or another. Without fuel, even bombs are dead weight. This why I feel that oil is the single most important supply item.

Coal is just a temporary solution. The pollution from such power plants and its ecological impact alone is enough for concern. But in a tight spot, I guess anything's better than nothing.

The oil pipeline, as you said, is very dependent. But appropriate diplomatic and strategic moves could tilt Iran in our favour to continue oil supplies. And GCC supplies could, theoretically, travel to Pakistan via Iran. No Pakistani ports needed.

But there are too many ifs involved in this:
- If Iran accepts...
- If Iran doesn't favour India
- If the GCC wants to supply...
- If our strategy plays out...
- If the US doesn't oppose Pak-Iran...

We're trapped bad, actually. But Iranian oil does save us some dollars which we can use to buy better naval hardware or create some storage facilities. Just comes down to cash.

 

[Mitro]

Kargil really they cross Line of control not us and they still have some of highest peak in kargil like we do in siachen .

one submarine was enough to keep our vikrant out of war in 1971.

Listen what Pakistan's former defence minster Ahmed Mukhtar has to say. He acknowleged that India is in far better condition compared to the past.

Do you think India will sit idle in case of war. We saw their nuclear power in Kargil.

 

[Echo_419]

Simple yet effective try to field as many cruise/ballistic/SUB-Sonic missiles & advanced long range radars in which china can help you & you have Babur too use missiles to destroy our ports & ships yes we have missile defence system but if you launch many probability increases that some will hit

This is a low cost & the Brest statergy

Also indo-pak war is not going to last more than 2 weeks nuke factor

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Indian has become the biggest buyer of arms. It is a povery ridden country. The incentive in this enterprise is mega-graft by all involved from Italian family downwards. At some point in time these leaders have to justify these procurements. Don't forget the pressure of Western Govts to fight so that they can exploit India more and sell more and more arms and services. That's a possibility we BD and other small neighbors live with. Pakistan and China are too powerful for India which is shi--t scared of them. Should BD be invaded we know China, Pakistan, Indonesia, Turkey and all Muslims will come to assist us.

Hey asad; you are just coming through as a "sad" badass! You did'nt get the hint from @RazorMC's reply to your earlier post on similar lines; so you popped up again like "a jack-in-the box"

When the last time India and Pakistan went to war in 1999; did China and BD enter the war? Did any of the muslim world?
As a matter of fact; China has never ever come to Pakistan's rescue through all the Indo-Pak wars.
And Turkiye and Indonesia coming to help? You gotta be nuts!
Don't sing that "Ummah-chummah" song. Nobody helps nobody. Not even for religious reasons.
You're still looking for that infinite "wet-dream"? Nobody gonna give that to you.
BD does'nt count for anything, like Somalia does'nt; geddit!