Alternate History : What if Jinnah continued in Indian National Congress?

[padamchen]

Jinnah himself said to Mountbatten that a Punjabi is a Punjabi before he is a Muslim, and that a Bengali is a Bengali before he is a Muslim. Rehmat Ali also wanted Muslims in India to be divided into different states, and frequently spoke of culture.

The religious coating is simply a manifestation of something deeper.



We're not North Korea or Iran, calm down.

I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of your post (beyond one point, which I shall get to), and him calling us "winners" is silly, but we should take this as a lesson for improvement, not despair.



Imran Khan's move is strategic in nature, it's not as if the support for Kashmiri insurgents shall stop.



The Brahmins? Definitely. The others? Imho, not so much.



I just don't think they're able to tame the hordes that follow them. Until they do, I shall remain sceptical of them being able to achieve their goal without igniting more civil conflict (that would result in their objective becoming unattainable).

The hordes are a critical cog in their wheel.

Executors of their strategy.

As an Indian I've seen how they've brilliantly played this great game over the past 30 years.

The braintrust ignites. All the stuff on socisl and mSm.

The tinder are the hordes.

The braintrust provides them the platform.

And slowly and inexorably the Constitution is changed.

As they win majority in both houses. Win = Buy.

Their finds are limitless. Because the money is controlled by non Muslims. Hindus and Parsis.

And every institution is infiltrated up to the highest echelons by their people.

Including the judiciary the police and the army.

It's a takeover.

 

[Adonis]

Jinnah himself said to Mountbatten that a Punjabi is a Punjabi before he is a Muslim, and that a Bengali is a Bengali before he is a Muslim. Rehmat Ali also wanted Muslims in India to be divided into different states, and frequently spoke of culture.

The religious coating is simply a manifestation of something deeper.

We're not North Korea or Iran, calm down.

I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of your post (beyond one point, which I shall get to), and him calling us "winners" is silly, but we should take this as a lesson for improvement, not despair.



Imran Khan's move is strategic in nature, it's not as if the support for Kashmiri insurgents shall stop.

Thanks to find a sensible poster..... apologies mate...sometime get carried away by some low calibre/far from reality (ignorant) posts.

To you point 1. If that is the thing, it totally contradicts the very concept of religion based divide of the country...It was said Islam is the binding force, and per two nation theory, Muslims cannot live with Hindus.....but here you are stating even Muslims cannot live with Muslims......and I totally agree to it....from Bangladesh to Iraq/Iran, to Shia/Sunni etc....it is evidently demonstrated.

On 2. We are quite close to be one of those if we don't mend our ways. Thinks keeping us afloat are interests of US in Afghanistan, Fear of loosing Nuclear Arsenals to radical (if we collapse) from the West and access to Waters from Western route from China.

3. What it will reap.....Go ahead , Continue support...as we have been continuing it for the past 73 years.

 

[padamchen]

That is correct. It was a strategic retreat masterminded by Jinnah but not understood by majority of Indian Hindus. All subsequent Pakistani rulers except ZA Bhutto have been keeping this fact in mind. There will be a Panipat IV. The question is not if but when. If you look at the map of Pakistan it resembles an offensive formation waiting to overrun India's western front just as all previous invasion took place. Then there is a possibility of highly unexpected Hannibalian envelopment from the north.
BJP is not the kind of party which will save India as this party is a pseudo-Hinduwadi party which looks after the rich mafia class at the expenses of their poor Muslim citizens.

Brilliant.

I am enjoying this thread way too much ....

 

[Hamza913]

1. If that is the thing, it totally contradicts the very concept of religion based divide of the country

Religious tension is often times just a manifestation of cultural differences. Just take a look at the mess that was Operation Blue Star. Just like much of Pakistan, those involved were Punjabi, and just like Pakistan, they were a different religion to the majority of India. However, they were not Muslim. One can also see how the Bengalis separated too.

Basing it purely on religion is silly, there's something deeper to this. Especially when much of the Muslim League was, quite frankly, not particularly religious.

We are quite close to be one of those if we don't mend our ways.

Which is why it's so imperative that we must.

3. What it will reap.....Go ahead , Continue support...as we have been continuing it for the past 73 years.

The Kashmir issue has hardly been that much baggage for Pakistan, and the region is incredibly strategic. If need be, we can slow things down, but in the long term, we need to control it.

The hordes are a critical cog in their wheel.

Executors of their strategy.

As an Indian I've seen how they've brilliantly played this great game over the past 30 years.

The braintrust ignites. All the stuff on socisl and mSm.

The tinder are the hordes.

The braintrust provides them the platform.

And slowly and inexorably the Constitution is changed.

As they win majority in both houses. Win = Buy.

Their finds are limitless. Because the money is controlled by non Muslims. Hindus and Parsis.

And every institution is infiltrated up to the highest echelons by their people.

Including the judiciary the police and the army.

It's a takeover.

Ultimately, we will see how it pans out. I think the coming years are the most critical to determining whether or not this strategy shall succeed or fail.

 

[Nilu Pule]

Hinduwadis are just loud Hindus trying to beat the Muslim at his own game.

Loud and stupid.

They are just afraid to do what needs to be done

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/...d-certain-to-be-a-bombshell-798128-1988-11-15

India Wins Freedom by Abdul Kalam Azad: Certain to be a bombshell

The much-awaited release, next week, of the unexpurgated version of Maulana Azad's India Wins Freedom is certain to be a bombshell for the ruling party because it exposes the giants of the freedom struggle, including Jawaharlal Nehru, in unfavourable light. India Today analyses the implications and reproduces extracts of the controversial manuscript.

Extracts

Nehru's Blunders


The next point which I had to decide was about the choice of my successor. I was anxious that the next president should be one who agreed with my point of view and would carry out the same policy as I had pursued. After weighing the pros and cons, I came to the conclusion that the election of Sardar Patel would not be desirable in the existing circumstances.

Taking all facts into consideration, it seemed to me that Jawaharlal should be the new president. Accordingly, on April 26,1946,1 issued a statement proposing his name for the presidentship and appealing to Congressmen that they should elect Jawaharlal unanimously.

The turn that events had taken made it almost impossible to expect a peaceful solution...between the Congress and the Muslim League (and) a large part of the responsibility for this development rests with Jawaharlal.

I acted according to my best judgement but the way things have shaped since then has made me realise that this was perhaps the greatest blunder of my political life. I have regretted no action of mine so much as the decision to withdraw from the presidentship of the Congress in this critical juncture. It was a mistake which I can describe in Gandhiji's words as one of Himalayan dimension.


My second mistake was that when I decided not to stand myself, I did not support Sardar Patel. We differed on many issues but I am convinced that if he had succeeded me as Congress President he would have seen that the Cabinet Mission Plan was successfully implemented. He would have never committed the mistake of Jawaharlal which gave Mr Jinnah the opportunity of sabotaging the plan. I can never forgive myself when I think that if I had not committed these mistakes, perhaps the history of the last ten years would have been different.

My statement caused a commotion among Congressmen all over the country. Several important leaders travelled from Calcutta, Bombay and Madras to persuade me to withdraw my statement and allow my name to be put up. Appeals in the press also appeared to the same effect. But I had already taken a decision and did not feel that I should change my view.

One factor which gave greater strength to my decision was Gandhiji's view. He agreed with me that I should not continue as president but he was not wholly pleased that I had proposed that Jawaharlal should succeed me. Perhaps he was somewhat inclined towards Sardar Patel, but once I had proposed Jawaharlal's name, he gave no public indication of his views. Some people did propose the names of Sardar Patel and Acharya Kripalani but in the end Jawaharlal was accepted unanimously.

Congress President

Jawaharlal Nehru with Mahatma Gandhi

Now happened one of those unfortunate events which change the course of history. On July 10, Jawaharlal held a press conference in Bombay in which he made an astonishing statement. Some press representatives asked him whether, with the passing of the resolution by the AICC, the Congress had accepted the plan in toto, including the composition of the interim Government?
Jawaharlal in reply stated that the Congress would enter the Constituent Assembly "completely unfettered by agreements and free to meet all situations as they arise."

Press representatives further asked if this meant that the Cabinet Mission Plan could be modified.

Jawaharlal replied emphatically that the Congress had agreed only to participate in the Constituent Assembly and regarded itself free to change or modify the Cabinet Mission Plan as it thought best.

The Muslim League had accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan only under duress. Naturally Mr Jinnah was not very happy about it. In his speech to the League Council, he had clearly stated that he recommended acceptance only because nothing better could be obtained. His political adversaries started to criticise him by saying that he had failed to deliver the goods.

They accused him that he had given up the idea of an independent Islamic state. They also taunted him that if the League was willing to accept the Cabinet Mission Plan - which denied the right of the Muslims to form a separate state - why had Mr Jinnah made so much fuss about an independent Islamic state?

Gandhiji. was not wholly pleased that I had proposed that Jawaharlal should succeed me (as Congress president). Perhaps he was somewhat inclined towards Sardar Patel.

Mr Jinnah was thus not at all happy about the outcome of the negotiations with the Cabinet Mission. Jawaharlal's statement came to him as a bombshell. He immediately issued a statement that this declaration by the Congress President demanded a review of the whole situation. He accordingly asked Liaqat Ali Khan to call a meeting of the League Council and issued a statement to the following effect.

The Muslim League Council had accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan in Delhi as it was assured that the Congress also had accepted the scheme and the plan would be the basis of the future constitution of India. Now that the Congress President had declared that the Congress could change the scheme through its majority in the Constituent Assembly, this would mean that the minorities would be placed at the mercy of the majority.

His view was that Jawaharlal's declaration meant that the Congress had rejected the Cabinet Mission Plan and as such the Viceroy should call upon the Muslim League which had accepted the plan to form the government.

The Muslim League Council met at Bombay on July 27. Mr Jinnah in his opening speech reiterated the demand for Pakistan as the only course left open to the Muslim League. After three days discussion, the Council passed a resolution rejecting the Cabinet Mission Plan. It also decided to resort to direct action for the achievement of Pakistan.

I was extremely perturbed by this new development. I saw that the scheme for which I had worked so hard was being destroyed through our own action. I felt that a meeting of the Working Committee must immediately be held to review the situation. Jawaharlal was not at first willing but when I insisted, he agreed. The Working Committee accordingly met on August 8 and reviewed the whole political situation.

I pointed out that if we wanted to save the situation, we must make it clear that the statement of the Congress President at the Bombay press conference was his personal opinion and did not conform to the decision of the Congress. I explained that the view of the Congress was expressed by the resolution passed by the AICC and no individual, not even the Congress President, could change it.

Jawaharlal argued that he had no objection if the Working Committee wanted to reiterate that the Cabinet Mission Plan has been accepted by the Congress, but felt that it would be embarrassing to the organisation and also to him personally if the Working Committee passed a resolution that the statement of the Congress President did not represent the policy of the Congress.

August 16,1946, was a black day not only for Calcutta but for the whole of India. The turn that events had taken made it almost impossible to expect a peaceful solution by agreement between the Congress and the Muslim League. This was one of the greatest tragedies of Indian history and I have to say with the deepest of regret that a large part of the responsibility for this development rests with Jawaharlal.

His unfortunate statement that the Congress would be free to modify the Cabinet Mission Plan re-opened the whole question of political and communal settlement. Mr Jinnah took full advantage of his mistake and withdrew from the League's early acceptance of the Cabinet Mission Plan.

Sardar Patel with Maulana Azad

Jawaharlal is one of my dearest friends and his contribution to India's national life is second to none. I have nevertheless to say with regret that this was not the first time that he did immense harm to the national cause. He had committed an almost equal blunder in 1937 when the first elections were held under the Government of India Act 1935. In these elections, the Muslim League had suffered a great setback throughout the country except in Bombay and the UP....
Chaudhari Khaliquzzaman and Nawab Ismail Khan were then the leaders of the Muslim League in the UP. When I came to Lucknow for forming the Government, I spoke to both of them. They assured me that not only would they cooperate with the Congress, but they would fully support the Congress programme. They naturally expected that the Muslim League would have some share in the new Government.

The local position was such that neither of them could enter the Government alone. Either both would have to be taken or none. I had therefore held out hopes that both would be taken into the Government... and I left for Patna as my presence was necessary for forming the ministry in Bihar.

After some days, I returned to Allahabad and found to my great regret that Jawaharlal had written to Chaudhari Khaliquzzaman and Nawab Ismail Khan that only one of them could be taken into the ministry. He had said that the Muslim League party could decide who should be included but in the light of what I have said above, neither was in a position to come in alone. They therefore expressed their regret and said that they were unable to accept Jawaharlal's offer.

This was a most unfortunate development. If the League's offer of cooperation had been accepted, the Muslim League party would for all practical purposes merge in the Congress. Jawaharlal's action gave the Muslim League in the UP a new lease of life. All students of Indian politics know that it was from the UP that the League was re-organised. Mr Jinnah took full advantage of the situation and started an offensive which ultimately led to Pakistan.

Mountbatten Promotes Partition

A truly pathetic situation had developed as a result of our own foolish action in giving Finance to the Muslim League. Lord Mountbatten took full advantage of the situation. Because of the dissensions among the members, he slowly and gradually assumed full powers. He still kept up the form of a constitutional Governor-General but in fact he started to mediate between the Congress and the League and get his own way.

He also began to give a new turn to the political problem and tried to impress on both the Congress and the Muslim League the inevitability of Pakistan. He pleaded in favour of Pakistan and sowed the seeds of the idea in the minds of the Congress members of the Executive Council....

He wanted to be remembered in history as the man who had solved the Indian problem. If the solution was in terms of a plan formulated by him, this would bring still greater credit to him.

I think one factor responsible for the change (in Nehru's attitude to partition) was the personality of Lady Mountbatten.

Lord Mountbatten gave me the impression that he was not going to London with a clear cut picture of partition nor had he given up completely the Cabinet Mission Plan. Later events made me change my estimate of the situation. The way he acted afterwards convinced me that he had already made up his mind and was going to London to persuade the British Cabinet to accept his plan of partition. His words were only meant to allay my doubts. He did not himself believe what he was telling me.

Patel Accepts Partition

Mohammad Ali Jinnah

I was surprised that Patel was now an even greater supporter of the two nation theory than Jinnah. Jinnah may have raised the flag of partition but now the real flag bearer was Patel.
Sardar Patel was fifty per cent in favour of partition even before Lord Mountbatten appeared on the scene. He was convinced that he could not work with the Muslim League. He was prepared to have a part of India if only he could get rid of the Muslim League. It would not perhaps be unfair to say that Vallabhbhai Patel was the founder of Indian partition.

We were becoming greater supporters of partition than Jinnah. I warned Jawaharlal that. the verdict would be that India was divided not by the Muslim League but by the Congress.
I argued that our second mistake arose when Lord Wavell suggested that the Home portfolio may be given to the Muslim League. This would have not caused any insuperable difficulty but because Patel insisted on retaining Home, we had ourselves offered Finance to the Muslim League. This was the cause of our present difficulties. Now a situation had arisen where we were becoming greater supporters of partition than Jinnah. I warned Jawaharlal that history would never forgive us if we agreed to partition. The verdict would be that India was divided not by the Muslim League but by the Congress.

Krishna Menon's Dishonesty

Jawaharlal Nehru with Krishna Menon

We all like our admirers but perhaps Jawaharlal likes them a little more than others. Sometime later, in the early thirties, the Labour Party sent a delegation to India led by Miss Ellen Wilkinson. Krishna Menon was attached to the delegation and visited India. He had also been taking an interest in the activities of the India League in London. During this period, his contacts were mainly with people who were regarded as communists or fellow-travellers. When Jawaharlal went again to London, Krishna Menon renewed his contacts and reiterated his loyalty for Jawaharlal.
When war broke out, Krishna Menon suggested that he should be provided with funds so that he could carry on propaganda in London on behalf of India. When Hitler attacked Russia, he came into touch with the Soviet Embassy in London. He sent us many messages that he was meeting the Soviet Ambassador as Jawaharlal's personal representative. He sent all kinds of proposals for securing the help of interests friendly to India.

He also prepared schemes asking for funds from the Congress. Jawaharlal was impressed by him and requested me to grant some money. I did so and placed the matter before the Working Committee. Gandhiji and Sardar Patel told me frankly that they did not like my action but they would say nothing since I had paid the money in good faith. They however asked me not to make any further payment. They pointed out that Indians in London were sharply divided in their judgement about Krishna Menon.

Mountbatten decided to become his patron. Krishna Menon had communist tendencies but when he saw hat Mountbatten. might help him to get a position, he became pro-British overnight.
He had some supporters but there was a strong body of opponents who brought all kinds of charges against him. The general impression I got was that his conduct was not above approach. I could not therefore trust him fully. Later events proved that Gandhiji and Sardar were right in their suspicion of Krishna Menon. He was, to take a charitable view, unreliable and had little concern for the way public funds were spent. Most people took an even worse view and regarded him as downright dishonest.

When the interim Government was formed, Jawaharlal wanted to appoint Krishna Menon as the High Commissioner in London. Lord Wavell did not agree. The British Government also advised that his appointment would not be appropriate as he was regarded a fellow-traveller. Soon after Lord Wavell left, Krishna Menon came to India and stayed with Jawaharlal. Lord Mountbatten immediately perceived that Jawaharlal had a weakness for Krishna Menon and could be influenced by him. Lord Mountbatten decided to become his patron and invited him to the Viceroy's House on several occasions.

Menon had communist tendencies but when he saw that Lord Mountbatten was friendly and might help him to get a position, he became pro-British overnight. He impressed Lord Mountbatten with his friendly feelings for the British. Lord Mountbatten felt that Menon would be useful in persuading Jawaharlal to accept his scheme of partition of India. It is my belief that Menon did influence Jawaharlal's mind on this question. I was not surprised when sometime later I learnt that Lord Mountbatten offered to support Jawaharlal if he wanted to appoint Menon as the High Commissioner in London.

Definitely not a fan of Nehru. But do you think Maulandya Azad can be trusted? He would have supported ISIS if he were alive today

 

[War Historian]

Muhammad Ali Jinnah left Indian National Congress in 1920 after finding no support for him in the party.

What if he had found support and continued in Indian National Congress to become the President of the party?

1) Could British India have continued as colony of the Great Britain as Jinnah had good relations with the British?

2) If British India were to be given Independence then would British India have been partitioned?

3) Would Muslims of British India be ruling today the entire subcontinent?[/QUO

Pakistan was the destiny of south asian muslims. It was not popular demand even after Allama Muhammad Iqbal address in Allahabad where he share the dream of separate country, Ch. Rehmat ali Pamphlet "Now or Never" in second round table conference. It become popular demand of muslims after the 1937 congress lead govt in 5 large provinces across the sub continent. When they give trailer about the actual film which they have for muslims after the independence from Britain.
1- Congress force the muslim for hindi script in schools.
2- they force all muslim student to sing Vande matrum in morning.
3- Slaughter of the cow was ban across the country.
4- Standing infront of gandhi's statue was a daily practice.
5- hindi was forced in public offices.
6- congress flag was hoisted on all public buildings as a national flag.
7- and force conversion of muslims into hindu religion also started in hindu majority areas.
8- they start treating muslim as third rate citizens.
Many muslims were killed in resistance against these hindu dominance acts.
Then in 1939 congress resign from all provinces to put pressure on the British government in WW ll scenario and start movement quit india.
At that time Mr.Jinnah made a public call to observe freedom day from curse govt of congress.
And when congress was bizzy to welcome japanese imperial forces. Mr. Jinnah advice muslims to join army and ask Britain to make a respectable solution for the Muslims of south asia. Which british promise at the end of the war they will do.
Pakistan was demanded by public masses earleir. Then latter Mr. Jinnah and the muslim league passed resolution of Lahore in 1940. Then after the resolution passing it become the destiny of most muslims of sub continent.
So if some one think that might Mr. Jinnah goes against the will of muslim masses and muslims was not able to get Pakistan and independence. Then he is wrong.
Might muslim choose any other leader to lead them towards the lights of independence.
There were many others.
Liaqat ali khan
Ch. Rehmat ali
Khuwaja nazam ud din
I.I Chandrigarh
Hussein shaheed Suharwardi
Maulana Shabir ahmed usmani
Might be maulana Mododi
Might be Khaksaar Movement
And many other could become the leader , but destiny choose Mr. Muhammad Ali Jinnah.
And if the muslims were forced in united india, then might be civil war starts and we might get all the plains of punjab and capital delhior might be beyond it.
But a after a large bloodshed.

 

[Andhadhun]

Definitely not a fan of Nehru. But do you think Maulandya Azad can be trusted? He would have supported ISIS if he were alive today

That is because you haven't read the best part of this book. In the book he finally says Jinnah was Right.

He was an out and out islamist. And he was our FIRST EDUCATION MINISTER.

So now you know why our history is "secular".

 

[Nilu Pule]

That is because you haven't read the best part of this book. In the book he finally says Jinnah was Right.

He was an out and out islamist. And he was our FIRST EDUCATION MINISTER.

So now you know why our history is "secular".

Now what are the Hinduwadis in power going to do about it

 

[Andhadhun]

Now what are the Hinduwadis in power going to do about it

Apparently Nothing.

 

[jamahir]

Jinnah and Nehru were rivals. Ego tussle.

Agreed.

I don't give a fck about ideology. Left Right or centrist I don't care. But if you appease Muslims, I won't support you.

I respect communists like Stalin and Xi Jinping but hate our own indeginous communists who are Islam apologist.

Simple question. What do you want the Indian Communists to do ??

 

[padamchen]

Now what are the Hinduwadis in power going to do about it

While Parsis continue to fund the Bjp, their community support and big money continue to fund the Congress.

In many ways Hindutva is about retaking India from the Parsis.

We see it in a million different ways all around us.

See and hear it. No one is fooled.

Least if all a brainy community that sees things clearly from a different racial and cultural worldview.

At the uppermost echelons it's a business turf war.

The Muslims getting hit is the social vent valve in the trenches.

 

[Andhadhun]

While Parsis continue to fund the Bjp, their community support and big money continue to fund the Congress.

In many ways Hindutva is about retaking India from the Parsis.

We see it in a million different ways all around us.

See and hear it. No one is fooled.

Least if all a brainy community that sees things clearly from a different racial and cultural worldview.

Will the parsis admit Indus valley was Hindu ?

 

[padamchen]

Will the parsis admit Indus valley was Hindu ?

It's a confluence construct of old Iranian farmer from the highlands coming down and mixing with the lowland Indic valley pastoralists.

@Joe Shearer

 

[Andhadhun]

It's a confluence construct of old Iranian farmer from the highlands coming down and mixing with the lowland Indic valley pastoralists.

@Joe Shearer

LOL.

Also please don't tag that insufferable old fart. You know I can't stand him and his rotten prejudices.

To the point, here is a Sculpture of "MONKEY GOD" excavated from Mohenjodaro in 1934. Presently kept at Mohenjodaro Museum, Pakistan. Naming as "Monkey God" is done by museum itself. The urdu tag identifies it as "Hanuman devata"

This sculpture is interesting because it was excavated in 1930's from Mohenjodaro, but was not published due to "LACK OF MONEY".

 

[padamchen]

LOL.

Also please don't tag that insufferable old fart. You know I can't stand him and his rotten prejudices.

To the point, here is a Sculpture of "MONKEY GOD" excavated from Mohenjodaro in 1934. Presently kept at Mohenjodaro Museum, Pakistan. Naming as "Monkey God" is done by museum itself. The urdu tag identifies it as "Hanuman devata"

This sculpture is interesting because it was excavated in 1930's from Mohenjodaro, but was not published due to "LACK OF MONEY".

Sigh.

Look what the corona dragged in.